About the Muslim refugees

[The Penguins]

Isn't it ironic that Islam is just a continuation of Christianity and Jews, Christians, and Muslims have key figures in common? 

[Tats]

I try to make it clearer about my goals. I am not trying to say, nobody ever killed someone in name of christianity.
 
From the beginning of this argument, I want to restore some historical truth about :
 
- The supposed slaughters caused by christian intolerance : crazy numbers of death are given out of nowhere ;
I don't say intolerance didn't existed, but not as we commonly heard it. How many times can we heard that the Inquisition killed millions or hundreds of thousands people ?
Many historians said these estimations are overexagerated and have no reliable base : Edward Peters, Bartolomé Bennassar, Henry Kamen, Marion Sigaut.
 

Beginning in the 19th century, historians have gradually compiled statistics drawn from the surviving court records, from which estimates have been calculated by adjusting the recorded number of convictions by the average rate of document loss for each time period. Gustav Henningsen and Jaime Contreras studied the records of the Spanish Inquisition, which list 44,674 cases of which 826 resulted in executions in person and 778 in effigy (i.e. a straw dummy was burned in place of the person).[40] William Monter estimated there were 1000 executions between 1530–1630 and 250 between 1630–1730.[41] Jean-Pierre Dedieu studied the records of Toledo's tribunal, which put 12,000 people on trial.[42] For the period prior to 1530, Henry Kamen estimated there were about 2,000 executions in all of Spain's tribunals.[43] Italian Renaissance history professor and Inquisition expert Carlo Ginzburg had his doubts about using statistics to reach a judgment about the period. “In many cases, we don’t have the evidence, the evidence has been lost,†said Ginzburg.[44]

Source:Wikipedia

- The arbitrariness and fanatism of the Inquisition
 

Regardless of the century, inquisitions were ecclesiastical investigations conducted either directly by the Catholic Church or by secular authorities with the support of the Church. These investigations were undertaken at varying times in varying regions under the authority of the local bishop and his designates or under the sponsorship of papal-appointed legates. The purpose of each inquisition was specific to the outstanding circumstances of the region in which it was held. Investigations usually involved a legal process...

 

Guides were written so as to decribe the procedures to follow for the Inquisition:
Practica Inquisitionis heretice pravitatis, Bernard Gui
Directorium Inquisitorum, Nicolas Eymerich
I think Tomas Torquemada wrote one, I didn't find the name.
 
A large majority of prosecuted persons were finally released. Some were cleared of all suspicion, some were pardoned and some were asked to do penance (prayers, pilgrimage, almsgiving).
 
If an investigation resulted in a person being convicted of heresy and unwillingness to repent punishment was administered by the secular authorities.
Therefore the Inquisition never condemned a person to death, which was left to the power of civil society.
The local authorities of Church often intervened in order to make secular tribunal reduce the sentence.

 
- The overstated use of torture
 
I am personnally, as most persons today, against torture. What I want to restore as historical truth, is torture was far less frequent than what people say.
 

Modern researchers have discovered that the Spanish Inquisition applied torture in only 2 percent of its cases. Each instance of torture was limited to a maximum of 15 minutes. In only 1 percent of the cases was torture applied twice and never for a third time.

Source:crisismagazine

 

Those who get their history from Mel Brooks’s History of the World, Part I will perhaps be surprised to learn that all of those Jews enduring various tortures in the dungeons of the Spanish Inquisition are nothing more than a product of Brooks’s fertile imagination. Spain’s Jews had nothing to fear from the Spanish Inquisition.

Source:crisismagazine

 

The use of torture was precisely regulated :
 

Unlike today, the institution of torture was officially established and, as such, subject to regulation. Records were kept. And there were rules. Procedures were carefully defined. Foucault notes that torture under the Ancien Régime : ".. was not a way to obtain the truth at any price; this is not the unchained torture of contemporary interrogations; it is indeed cruel, but not savage. It was a question of a practice subject to rules, to a well-defined procedure; moments, duration, the number of trials, the interventions of the magistrate who conducts the interrogation, all this is, according to different customs, strictly codified."

 

Obviously, one cannot, and should not defend the institution of judicial torture, but it should not be forgotten that as a legal institution, records were kept. Since contemporary torture is illegal, it is also hidden, and most frequently denied.

Source : onlinelibrary

Evidence and witness testimony was gathered before an arrest was made. Once an arrest was made, the accused was given several opportunities to admit to any heretical behavior before the charges against him/her were identified. If the accused did not admit to any wrongdoing, the inquisitors dictated the charges and the accused was required to respond to them immediately.[25] Torture was used, but only for extracting confessions during a trial and was not used as punishment after sentencing. If torture was used, the accused was required to repeat their repentance without torture.[26] The Inquisition also had a rule that they were only allowed to use torture once, however, they were able to 'suspend' sessions and resume them the following day, though this never lead into a 3rd day.[27]

 

As in the French inquisitions, the purpose of Spanish inquisitorial torture was to gain either information or confession, not to punish. It was used in a relatively small percentage of trials, since of course the threat of torture if no confession was given was often enough to induce one, and was usually a last resort.[28] The "scenes of sadism conjured up by popular writers on the inquisition have little basis in reality, though the whole procedure was unpleasant enough [even] to arouse periodic protests from Spaniards".[29]

 

Modern historian Thomas Madden has suggested that the Inquisition "was an attempt to stop unjust executions" and "the Spanish Inquisition was widely hailed as the best run, most humane court in Europe."[30]

Source:Wikipedia

 
By the way the use of torture was much more common in secular tribunals, and it was quite frequent that prosecuted people blaspheme so as to be transfered to the Inquisition court which was much more lenient.
 
The creation of the Inquisition myth
 

By the 17th century, "The Inquisition" provided political and philosophical thinkers with an ideal symbol of religious intolerance. These philosophers and politicians passionately denounced "The Inquisition," citing it as the cause for all the political and economic failures in countries where "Inquisitions" were held. From these debates on toleration, "The Inquisition" was presented by French philosophes as the worst of any religious evil to ever come out of Europe.[58]Additionally, writers, artists, and sculptors of the 17th and 18th centuries used "The Inquisition" as one of their main inspirations, retaliating against "The Inquisition's" suppression of creativity, literature, and art.[59] These artistic images have arguably become some of the most long-lasting and effective perpetuators of "The Inquisition" myth.

Source:Wikipedia

 
- The amalgam between politics and religion
 
When I talk of politics, I use it in a broad sense. You can replace it with modern issues such as power, money, private interests.
 
* Concerning the Catharists (also known as the Albigensians)
 
Many persons believe many Catharists were nice and tolerant persons, such as today atheists or tibetan monks. The same persons often associates catholics with fanatism, which led to a terrible bloody crusade against Catharists. This is a fantasy.
 
Even if catharists pretend to be christians, they based their beliefs on a modified version of the Bible, their behaviour was far from it. Catharism was a blend of Gnosticism, which claimed to have access to a secret source of religious knowledge, and of Manichaeism, which said matter is evil. The Catharists believed in two gods: the "good" God of the New Testament, who sent Jesus to save our souls from being trapped in matter; and the "evil" God of the Old Testament, who created the material world in the first place. According to catharists, marriage was scorned because it legitimized sexual relations, which they identified as the Original Sin. But fornication was permitted because it was temporary, secret. Marriage was permanent, open and was pubicly sanctioned. They encourage ritualistic suicide and "helped" others to do so. They refused to take oath, they refused the authority of the French King and the catholic Church. They got protection from some powerful noble lords who wanted to challenge the French King. Catharists represented simultaneously a moral, social and political danger if not resolved rapidly. The crusade was initiated after several attempts to find a reasonable deal.
 
An historian, known for his hostility towards the catholic Church, admitted about Catharists : "The cause of orthodoxy was the cause of progress and civilization. Had Catharism become dominant, or even had it been allowed to exist on equal terms, its influence could not have failed to become disastrous."
 
* Concerning the crusades

 

From the very beginning of christianity, many persons made pilgrimages to the Holy Land and Jerusalem.

 

After the death of Muhammad, muslims took control over Palestine and lands around the Mediterranean sea.

Christians are then considered as the dhimmi, they need to pay taxes to practise their religion and access the Holy Sepulchre.

 

In 1009, Caliph Al-Hakim ordered the destruction of the Basilica of the Holy Sepulchre.

During this time, christians are persecuted and many are forced to convert to Islam, many others are enslaved.

 

In 1078, the Turks took control of Jerusalem and forbid pilgrimages and access to the holy places.

 

The pope Urban II acted promptly and called a crusade with the goals of securing access to the Holy Sites. This is the first crusade.

About a hundred of thousands of people or more, engaged in the crusade.Crusaders fought fought the Turks at Antioch, 

The crusade army divided, one part stayed so as to defend Antioch, and another part marched to Jerusalem.

The crusaders entered the city on 15 July 1099. Four primary crusader states were created: Edessa, Antioch, Tripoli, and Jerusalem.

 

It is an overview of what crusades are. It is sure christians killed muslims, but it started the other way. This is what we call today self-defence.

Obviously there are shadow areas both on crusaders and muslims sides, but here the question : why we always blame the crusaders and not the other side ?

There is a clear bias when people object constantly the crusades, leaving out the historical context.

 

* Concerning colonization

 

Do I need to say europeans were not the only ones who colonized ? Do I need to say colonization was under the responsibility of political / temporal authorities, not spiritual authorities ?

[Poorest scrub]

ehh i support it for the most part, but it can very easily end up being poorly implemented.  

[TheSilencer]

Europe will be screwed if it takes Syrian refugees.

Pakistan took a few million Afghan refugees in the '80s and they've become a scourge in the country, involved in Baacha Bazi (raping young boys), drug and arms trafficking (which has turned the capital of the country, Karachi into a violent cesspit), extortion and terrorism. Best of all, they despise their host country and would gladly become a fifth column if say, India decided to invade the country.

 

@OP interesting to see you labelled the refugees as Muslims. Of course they're Muslims, but what's Muslim about them and their actions right now? Where does Muslim come into them fleeing their home country in search of greener pastures abroad? I mean you could have called them Syrian, or Middle Eastern or Arab. Why the Muslim? What is so "Muslim" about them?

[Hyperqube]

I try to make it clearer about my goals. I am not trying to say, nobody ever killed someone in name of christianity.

Then, what are you trying to say when you said Christianism is not enforced?

 

At best, your own argument is now 'but we don't know, as the evidence is lost' - pretty much nuking any chance you had to forfil your burden of proof.

 

Maybe you think it is not a valuable option, but syrian people think differently.

Me? no. The syrian people who, instead of joining Assad, chose to flee, on the other hand ...

 

Yeah, sorry mate, but you don't make any sense into claiming they would see it as "a valuable option".

 

 

Europe will be screwed if it takes Syrian refugees.

Pakistan took a few million Afghan refugees in the '80s

I'm not really seeing the link? Pakistan has always been an islam country?

[TheSilencer]

Then, what are you trying to say when you said Christianism is not enforced?

 

At best, your own argument is now 'but we don't know, as the evidence is lost' - pretty much nuking any chance you had to forfil your burden of proof.

 

Me? no. The syrian people who, instead of joining Assad, chose to flee, on the other hand ...

 

Yeah, sorry mate, but you don't make any sense into claiming they would see it as "a valuable option".

 

 

I'm not really seeing the link? Pakistan has always been an islam country?

The link? Influx of a few million refugees coming from a troubled warzone? Not that much of a link for you? And Pakistan always been a predominantly Muslim country, but that didn't stop many Afghans from taking up arms against the state and demanding the formation of a Shariah-governed country.

[Hyperqube]

You seem to be confused?

 

 

Firsly, from your first post, you mention Bacha Bazi.

 

But Bacha Bazi is a (horrible) Afghan custom - not a muslim thing (In fact - sharia law punshishes it with death).

I'm not seeing what Bacha Bazi has to do with syrian refugees in europe.

 

 

 

Secondly, form your last post, your claims simply don't fit the timeline. The Afghan refugees taking up arms against the state and demanding the formation of a Shariah-governed country?

 

Pakistan already had partial sharia law before 1977, and got more radical after the coup (started at around 1976, & ended with Operation Fair Play, July 1977) by the right-wing Islamist opposition party - the PNA - the "Pakistan National Alliance"

Oppositely, the first wave of Afghan migration into Pakistan began during the Soviet war in Afghanistan (Chirstmas 1979 to February 1989) - reaching 3 million by 1988 -- TEN YEARS after the coup

[TheSilencer]

You seem to be confused?

 

 

Firsly, from your first post, you mention Bacha Bazi.

 

But Bacha Bazi is a (horrible) Afghan custom - not a muslim thing (In fact - sharia law punshishes it with death).

I'm not seeing what Bacha Bazi has to do with syrian refugees in europe.

 

 

I'm not claiming that the Syrians also practice Bacha Baazi. The point I'm trying to make is that the refugees will bring their own barbaric practices into the country. It's not all about Islam, buddy. I wonder why you keep trying to bring in Islam into this.

 

 

 

Secondly, form your last post, your claims simply don't fit the timeline. The Afghan refugees taking up arms against the state and demanding the formation of a Shariah-governed country?

Many Afghans fight alongside TTP, the Pakistani Taliban. They've been involved in a number of attacks on the state. In fact, several Afghans are suspected to have been involved in the latest attack on a Pakistan Airforce Camp. Two Afghan nationals were found to be involved in the horrific 2014 Peshawar School Attack which led do the death of 132 children. 

[Hyperqube]

I'm not claiming that the Syrians also practice Bacha Baazi. The point I'm trying to make is that the refugees will bring their own barbaric practices into the country. It's not all about Islam, buddy. I wonder why you keep trying to bring in Islam into this.

 

(1) what barbaric practices would Syrians bring with them?

 

(2) You wonder why I thought you were talking about islam? comparing syrians with afghans? In a thread "About the Muslim refugees" ? Such things should be evident, really.

 

Many Afghans fight alongside TTP, the Pakistani Taliban.

(1) again, your timeline is messed up. The Pakistani Taliban has it's roots in 2002 & was officially created 2007, While pakistan has Sharia law since the 1980

 

(2) The history of the TTP is basically one big clusterf*** of events in the FATA region - which is the same region the afghan refugees of the 80's were/are living

Your agument is like saying the KKK has many americans. U.S. groups will have many members who live in the U.S. , and FATA groups will have many memebrs that live in the FATA region .

 

(3) "Many" Afghans? There are 1,700,000 Afghans in the FATA region. the TTP is ~25,000 people big. Even if it were a 100% afghan organisation - that's only 2%

If "at most 2%" is many, then what do you call "at least 98%" ?

[TheSilencer]

 

 

(1) what barbaric practices would Syrians bring with them?

Genital mutilation? Honor Killings? 

 

 

 

(2) You wonder why I thought you were talking about islam? comparing syrians with afghans? In a thread "About the Muslim refugees" ? Such things should be evident, really.

Well, my focus isn't Islam. I've already made it clear that labeling the refugees as Muslims for no good reason is silly. I'm not worried about them being Muslim, I'm worried about them being refugees from a lawless war-torn country.

 

 

 

 

(3) "Many" Afghans? There are 1,700,000 Afghans in the FATA region. the TTP is ~25,000 people big. Even if it were a 100% afghan organisation - that's only 2%

If "at most 2%" is many, then what do you call "at least 98%" ? 

25,000 active fighters, most likely. Who do you think the TTP's financiers are? Who do you think shelters TTP fighters? Where do they get their weapons from? Why are they so powerful? Afghan extortionists (who've driven out millions dollars worth of investment out of the province Khyber Pakhtunkhwa) and drug smugglers, Afghan civilians who hide their TTP brothers from the army, and Afghan arms traffickers who regularly cross the border bringing in violence and crime. 

[Teeny Tiny Cat]

... genital mutilation? Uh... source on that?

[Hyperqube]

Genital mutilation? Honor Killings?

while indeed these things do exist in Syria, (and obviously, every case is one too many), did you know syria is pretty mellow country?

 

(1) FGM

 

Qatar: Female genital mutilation is present in Qatar

Saudi-Arabia: Female genital mutilation is prevalent in Saudi Arabia.

Syria: Circumstantial evidence suggests FGM exists in Syria.

-- source wikipedia.

 

 

 

(2) honor killings.

 

(2.1) Albania? Cyprus? these european countries have honor killings as well.

 

(2.2) Syria does have honor killings, but only ~200 per year on a population of 18 million (which is ~1/100 000 - the unit used for murder rates)

Syria has a murder rate of 2.2. I dunno if honor killings are included in that. Lets assume it's not, and say it's 3.2

The U.K. has a murder rate of 1.0. So syrians seem a problem, right?

 

(2.3) the U.S. has a murder rate of 4.7. If you're afraid of Syrians, I can only immagine you're horrified by americans?

 

I'm worried about them being refugees from a lawless war-torn country.

 

oh, in that case, you've got nothing to fear. Syria is wartorn, but isn't lawless.

 

25,000 active fighters, most likely. Who do you think the TTP's financiers are? Who do you think shelters TTP fighters? Where do they get their weapons from? Why are they so powerful? Afghan extortionists (who've driven out millions dollars worth of investment out of the province Khyber Pakhtunkhwa) and drug smugglers, Afghan civilians who hide their TTP brothers from the army, and Afghan arms traffickers who regularly cross the border bringing in violence and crime.

ORLY?

 

Who finances them? How about the Indian intelligence agency RAW ("The Pakistani military and civilian leadership have repeatedly alleged that the Indian intelligence agency RAW has been funding and training TTP members" -- wikipadia).

Either way, it's probbably not going to be the afghan refugees you were talking about?

 

Where do they get their weapons from? If I would venture a guess, Al Qaeda? As "the TTP has close ties to Al Qaeda, sharing money and bomb experts and makers." -- wikipedia

Or any other militant group they have strong ties with?

I'm not seeing why this would be an issue of the 1.7 million afghans in pakistan. (they're not the only ones able to cross borders, ya know)

 

Why are they so powerful? What do you mean, 'why'? If a terrorist group of 25,000 strong isn't powerful, they're doing something wrong.

 

Who shelters them? I reckon that depends on which branch? I mean, there are cities under TTP control - that doesn't make those citizens TTP supporters.

If they are gettign sheltered, it's indeed going to be, obiously, the local population. And in reference to my previous example, who do you think shelters the KKK? - yup, americans.

 

 

 

I'm not going to argue that all afghan refugees are innocent people ... but come on, you're just throwing **** around, hoping something will stick.

[Professional Map Painter]

http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=3619411

 

obviously they wanted high-speed internet in order to access language courses can we please exchange these people for those who will appreciate the offer of asylum

[Hyperqube]

http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=3619411

 

obviously they wanted high-speed internet in order to access language courses can we please exchange these people for those who will appreciate the offer of asylum

 

How about they want to do something, instead of sitting on their hands for weeks?

 

while it seems odd they are complaining ... think about it

• complaining there's not enough food / clothing ... you're gonna say that's somehow wrong?
• there's nothing to do. So, what do you do when you got nothing to do? keep quite & check some stuff on-line? step outside to get a smoke? work towards integration? "We've asked them for a language course, but they said that wasn't possible"

it should be obvious that sub-par housing (if that's the word applicable here) of refugees creates the perfect environment to cultivate criminal activity.

 

 

Or, are we going by, "as long as it beats being in the goelag"? (Red Alert 3 reference)

[Professional Map Painter]

How about they want to do something, instead of sitting on their hands for weeks?

 

while it seems odd they are complaining ... think about it

• complaining there's not enough food / clothing ... you're gonna say that's somehow wrong?
• there's nothing to do. So, what do you do when you got nothing to do? keep quite & check some stuff on-line? step outside to get a smoke? work towards integration? "We've asked them for a language course, but they said that wasn't possible"

it should be obvious that sub-par housing (if that's the word applicable here) of refugees creates the perfect environment to cultivate criminal activity.

 

 

Or, are we going by, "as long as it beats being in the goelag"? (Red Alert 3 reference)

 

The language course issue is a legitimate complaint, as would be the food issue but it seems to me that they were complaining about what was on offer, not how much. Instead of moaning about the internet (which is still probably better in terms of speed than some countries barring perhaps India) they should be asking about how to apply for jobs or how to look for housing etc

[Hyperqube]

which is still probably better in terms of speed than some countries barring perhaps India

have you ever shared a slow connection with 100 other people?

 

they should be asking about how to apply for jobs or how to look for housing etc

Should? They probbably can't. At least for jobs (I don't know how it is about housing)

In my country, A refugee is not allowed to work for the first 4 months (used to be 6 until last week)

[iliad]

in my opinion I think these refugees are a bunch of twats, even though i am muslim i have to "support them" but that aint happening.

If the war ends , everything gets fixed, they won't go back.They should be grateful for the hospitality but they won't be because of some stupid "we wanna go sweden!!!" shit.

I am thinking of leaving the religion, not because of the whole refugee, war crisis its because it doesnt really suit me as a person.

I think that the people that have came after the whole wars and stuff have been spreading this stupid beliefs around, my family is muslim and they dont want go shoot up some non believers,

people might say "oh all religions have extremists " but the thing is, the whole muslim extremist thingys are more violent with their thoughts.

 

but all and all

 

muslims aint problem, dickhead muslims are

[Hyperqube]

muslims aint problem, dickhead muslims are

*nods*

 

But the part at 2:00 doesn't help either ...

 

https://youtu.be/umqvYhb3wf4?t=119

[soo...hey]

I have a school project on this, and this is what I got

 

-Refugees have dangerous journeys to European countries

-most boats are very crowded and they cannot bring much of their belongings with them

-there are not enough refugee camps to house the refugees

-there are so much refugees that the countries cannot support them fully

 

My opinion,

 

I think some big countries such as, the US and China should help the cause.

[cąℓσceđrus ☁☽]

it i awful

 

Islamic fighters sneaking in under the guise of asylum

 

merkel is a traitor to her people and should be executed

[Hyperqube]

merkel is a traitor to her people and should be executed

 

*cough* more then half of the german people agree with her asylum policies. *cough*

[Teeny Tiny Cat]

should be executed

 

What century are you from?

[Spiritwalker]

*cough* more then half of the german people agree with her asylum policies. *cough*

 

Apparently Merkel's popularity among the germans is on the absolute lowest ever.

[Python.]

How is this thread still up?!

This is probably the longest running PRS discussion ever, assuming it hasn't derailed already (haven't read any of the comments. This doesn't really concern me)

[cąℓσceđrus ☁☽]

4th reich when