Grimes Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 big deal, he's a scammer let's talk about something else No. If you don't like it, don't read the thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasuke200 Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 I have been wondering if it is even legal because he did steal but the items are not owned by the players only valve and he never stole from valve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gren Posted August 18, 2014 Share Posted August 18, 2014 I have been wondering if it is even legal because he did steal but the items are not owned by the players only valve and he never stole from valve. I think the whole issue is that there's no legal precedent for digital ietm theft. So it's basically a grey area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Dr. Professor Hamster Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 Wow, didn't see this coming, but I don't see it stopping soon either, he could just use a VPN. Makes sense. Sorta expected one of the big time high tier traders to do this for a few months. Hope it stops soon. I[ve been scammed off of 4.5 buds [my fault] and it felt like someone slapped me with a shoe that they just stepped in shit with, but thats nothing compared to someone these scams. Looks like some people have gone from hundreds of dollars to bust. Feel sorry for anyone who got scammed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
«Gғм» KNTRL! Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 Sorta expected one of the big time high tier traders to do this for a few months. Stop calling it a big high tier trader/reputable trader. He was just a random fag with bullshit rep. Want a reputable trade? Red Inferno/Angry Kittenz/Solaris32/Strife and so on. Not this random guys who appears from nowhere and began using paypal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bakgrund Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 Stop calling it a big high tier trader/reputable trader. He was just a random fag with bullshit rep. Want a reputable trade? Me/Red Inferno/Angry Kittenz/Solaris32/Strife and so on. Not this random guys who appears from nowhere and began using paypal. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♠Derpeh♤ Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 Sorta expected one of the big time high tier traders to do this for a few months. Erm, he never was a reputable trader nor was he "known", ive always thought he was that random guy that started posting snarky comments here and then got interested in paypal trading pretty early. Just looking at his low game time + steam level many people wouldnt of traded with him...dont know why so many people didnt look at it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
«Gғм» KNTRL! Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 lol Wat? You pretty much have no idea what rep I have and for how long I've been trading cash Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bakgrund Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 Wat? You pretty much have no idea what rep I have and for how long I've been trading cash But saying that you are trusted just makes you seem suspicious, let the users judge your reputation, as we won't care what you say about your reputation anyway... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Radiated Banana Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 I think the whole issue is that there's no legal precedent for digital ietm theft. So it's basically a grey area. Or maybe because trades are happening across multiple countries? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AwesomeMcCoolName Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 Stop calling it a big high tier trader/reputable trader. He was just a random fag with bullshit rep. Want a reputable trade? Me/Red Inferno/Angry Kittenz/Solaris32/Strife and so on. Not this random guys who appears from nowhere and began using paypal. But saying that you are trusted just makes you seem suspicious, let the users judge your reputation, as we won't care what you say about your reputation anyway... ouch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zerr Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 You know if this all was a plan by Google. , to get some "rep" and then scam, i give him credit. That's a fucking genius plan, i'm not saying he did the right thing, he scammed geniusly. GG goole, GG! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gren Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 You know if this all was a plan by Google. , to get some "rep" and then scam, i give him credit. That's a fucking genius plan, i'm not saying he did the right thing, he scammed geniusly. GG goole, GG! Seriously, how in the fuck is that a genius plan? Even if that was his plan right from the outset (I highly doubt it was, I think he just realised he'd maneuveured himself into a position where he could take advantage and because he's a twat, he took that opportunity), it's not genius. Get into paypal trading > build rep > buy big items and chargeback There, that's the plan, step by step. Nothing genius about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bakgrund Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 You know if this all was a plan by Google. , to get some "rep" and then scam, i give him credit. That's a fucking genius plan, i'm not saying he did the right thing, he scammed geniusly. GG goole, GG! "genius", anyone can scam without getting caught, it's just that most people are clever enough to understand that you simply don't scam others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F CHARLIE Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 Erm, he never was a reputable trader nor was he "known", ive always thought he was that random guy that started posting snarky comments here and then got interested in paypal trading pretty early. Just looking at his low game time + steam level many people wouldnt of traded with him...dont know why so many people didnt look at it It should now be expected. Someone will build up sociel credibility/trust here and on other forums just for the purpose of scamming. Also, past, well known scammers could be already here with a new alt. I have alts that have never interacted with my main and have play. I am sure they do. They just need to use them more and dress them up. I could see valve/steam create a process whereby they find a way to get a "fraud" mark in your credit history. That would effectively shut all this shit down. The larger valve/steam get the more ability they will have to do that. Also, if they can do this retroactively than this would be justice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gren Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 It should now be expected. Someone will build up sociel credibility/trust here and on other forums just for the purpose of scamming. Also, past, well known scammers could be already here with a new alt. I have alts that have never interacted with my main and have play. I am sure they do. They just need to use them more and dress them up. I could see valve/steam create a process whereby they find a way to get a "fraud" mark in your credit history. That would effectively shut all this shit down. The larger valve/steam get the more ability they will have to do that. Also, if they can do this retroactively than this would be justice. Good idea, but I'm pretty sure that's impossible, because fraud in regard to digital (untangible) items is a legal grey area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F CHARLIE Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 Good idea, but I'm pretty sure that's impossible, because fraud in regard to digital (untangible) items is a legal grey area. It will happen as valve/steam gets bigger and they determine its worthwhile to them to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gren Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 It will happen as valve/steam gets bigger and they determine its worthwhile to them to do it. It's not up to Valve, it's up to the legal system to basically say "Yes, we will treat intangible items just like tangible items and they will be subject to the same laws." Fraud happens in a legal context, and so far there is no legal context for "stealing" digital items. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F CHARLIE Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 It's not up to Valve, it's up to the legal system to basically say "Yes, we will treat intangible items just like tangible items and they will be subject to the same laws." Fraud happens in a legal context, and so far there is no legal context for "stealing" digital items. They only need to make the arguement that these items have had real world monetary value. Which they do. Think along the lines of collectables. Their value is based on what has been paid for those items before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gren Posted August 19, 2014 Share Posted August 19, 2014 They only need to make the arguement that these items have had real world monetary value. Which they do. Think along the lines of collectables. Their value is based on what has been paid for those items before. I think you're missing my point. Valve is not in a position to say "a Burning KE is worth $3000 because it has sold for that in the past. Therefore, our TF2 items have to be treated like any other material good and thus become subject to the same laws. Hence, if user A pulls a chargeback on user B which is akin to fraud, it should be treated as such and reflect on the user A's credit history." Private corporations can't just mark up your credit because they feel like it. The reason for a mark on your credit (whether it's because of a default, bankruptcy or whatever) has to have some actual legality behind it. But in the case of TF2 items, or any digital item for that matter, there is absolutely no legal groundwork that would explain how these items are treated. It's technically not even clear who owns these items. Do you really own your items? In what sense? If Valve takes down TF2 tomorrow, you lose all your shit. Whereas if Sony goes out of business tomorrow, you still keep your TV. So how can you steal something from someone if it's not even clear whether they owned it in the first place? I'm not saying that chargebacks shouldn't count as fraud. They probably should. But the courts need to decide that, not a private corporation. And that's a good thing, becauyse the once private coprorations can decide what's fraud and what isn't, we're all fucked. EDIT: I guess there's one possible way I can think of which would allow you at least some form of recourse: If you entered into a legally binding contract with whomever was buying your item. So maybe once you click 'accept' a pop-up would appear saying something to the effect of "You hereby acknowledge that you bla bla bla, obligation, bla bla bla, legal action, bla bla bla liable". But that would seriously diminish the trading experience for 99% of the trading community. Because let's not forget, most users are busy trading craft hats and stock stranges, not god-tier unusuals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs TS Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 EDIT: I guess there's one possible way I can think of which would allow you at least some form of recourse: If you entered into a legally binding contract with whomever was buying your item. So maybe once you click 'accept' a pop-up would appear saying something to the effect of "You hereby acknowledge that you bla bla bla, obligation, bla bla bla, legal action, bla bla bla liable". But that would seriously diminish the trading experience for 99% of the trading community. Because let's not forget, most users are busy trading craft hats and stock stranges, not god-tier unusuals. The fact of the matter is, your paypal transaction IS a legally binding contract. The way that the chargeback scammers get away with it is, they say they did not authorize that transaction, or were not in full control of that particular account, (or have we forgotten Left4Life and the 'it was my parents account and I was not legally allowed to use it) As for Value dictating values, maybe not directly when it comes to Unusuals, but they have already told us all how rare they are. Also, they do commonly set prices for every other item in the Mann Co store. I am not saying I have the solution, but Valve could ease the pain in the victims by simply guaranteeing sales made from their system. You would think a billion dollar company could put their neck on the line and come up with a better system, seeing as they already take 15% if you use the Steam Market. I am sure if there was a way Steam could get a percentage of what is traded through Paypal, things may be a little different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spu~ Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 Loving all the assmangled faggots ITT Don't be a dumbass online or you're gonna get rekt by someone that's not. It's plain and simple. It's not like Google held everyone he "scammed" at gunpoint to make the trade. They consented and they got rused hard. hi google Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasuke200 Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 You know if this all was a plan by Google. , to get some "rep" and then scam, i give him credit. That's a fucking genius plan, i'm not saying he did the right thing, he scammed geniusly. GG goole, GG! The concept is not really genius but he did execute his plan pretty well but he got trade banned early in(Steam was fast on this). There are ways he could of done this alot better(not going to give ideas) but he will probably do it again, but plan it out even more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gren Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 The fact of the matter is, your paypal transaction IS a legally binding contract. The way that the chargeback scammers get away with it is, they say they did not authorize that transaction, or were not in full control of that particular account, (or have we forgotten Left4Life and the 'it was my parents account and I was not legally allowed to use it) As for Value dictating values, maybe not directly when it comes to Unusuals, but they have already told us all how rare they are. Also, they do commonly set prices for every other item in the Mann Co store. I am not saying I have the solution, but Valve could ease the pain in the victims by simply guaranteeing sales made from their system. You would think a billion dollar company could put their neck on the line and come up with a better system, seeing as they already take 15% if you use the Steam Market. I am sure if there was a way Steam could get a percentage of what is traded through Paypal, things may be a little different. It's not a legally binding contract though. If it were, paypal wouldn't have a "Absolutely No Involvement" policy on intangible items. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
«Gғм» KNTRL! Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 But saying that you are trusted just makes you seem suspicious ouch I got a permanent tradeban 1 year ago for trading with an hijacked account. Thought my biz was fucked up forever and I could chargeback something that probably is 1.5x your dad's year salary and guess what?No scam. I had nothing to loose and still didn't chargebacked. Since Jesus loves good guys,few months later volvo asked sorry and unbanned me. Just removed myself from the list,wasn't an advertise,already have more business than I can handle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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