US Government shut down 3 hours ago

[Vegan T-Rex]

Keep in mind that the twitter is fake. Do you even lift?

the twitter is fake

you sound like a man who believes in the tabloids. Did you know that cordless phones have a much higher chance of opening an interdimensional portal to an alien world?

Also, im perfectly comfortable with my lean figure, thank you very much.

[HeavyLord]

the twitter is fake

you sound like a man who believes in the tabloids. Did you know that cordless phones have a much higher chance of opening an interdimensional portal to an alien world?

Also, im perfectly comfortable with my lean figure, thank you very much.

My fatness made my muscles

[cleverpun]

Stay on topic. This is a verbal warning.

[Avenging Flame]

This such a foolish attempt by the republicans to harm Afordable Care. People are already singned up around the country. What can be gained from delay now?

Simple, its not about delaying, its about defunding. The Affordable Care Act may be great for some but its also going to do a lot of harm to workers. Companies are slashing jobs down to 39 hours a week so that they don't have to pay the health care costs for their full time employees. Less work means less money for these workers and the health care that they thought they were going to get from the act is going to be denied to them because the government is forcing this upon people. A more simple system that would have worked better is that instead of the massive 1000 page bill that was the Affordable Care Act, would be the solution republican leaders were proposing from the beginning. Each state comes up with their own health care plan. They decide what they will cover and what it will cost. Then, you drop state lines, meaning if you don't like your states plan, you buy from another state that has a plan that is more of what you are looking for. This way, you empower the states as the constitution says, and you introduce competition into it so that prices stay low. Under this system, one state can't charge 500 dollars a month if another is charging only 30 and so on. The Affordable Care act is a mess. Have you actually read the bill and what was signed into law? Parts of it contradicts itself. America needs a new health care system, that is for sure, but the Affordable Care act is not the solution to the problem

[HeavyLord]

Did cleverpun just delete 20 replies

[cleverpun]

Did cleverpun just delete 20 replies

Yes. This is a verbal warning to stay on-topic.

[F CHARLIE]

Yes. This is a verbal warning to stay on-topic.

 

That was awesome.

 

 

Simple, its not about delaying, its about defunding. The Affordable Care Act may be great for some but its also going to do a lot of harm to workers. Companies are slashing jobs down to 39 hours a week so that they don't have to pay the health care costs for their full time employees. Less work means less money for these workers and the health care that they thought they were going to get from the act is going to be denied to them because the government is forcing this upon people. A more simple system that would have worked better is that instead of the massive 1000 page bill that was the Affordable Care Act, would be the solution republican leaders were proposing from the beginning. Each state comes up with their own health care plan. They decide what they will cover and what it will cost. Then, you drop state lines, meaning if you don't like your states plan, you buy from another state that has a plan that is more of what you are looking for. This way, you empower the states as the constitution says, and you introduce competition into it so that prices stay low. Under this system, one state can't charge 500 dollars a month if another is charging only 30 and so on. The Affordable Care act is a mess. Have you actually read the bill and what was signed into law? Parts of it contradicts itself. America needs a new health care system, that is for sure, but the Affordable Care act is not the solution to the problem

 

 

In order to reduce everyone cost, everyone has to be involved.

 

Republicans have no interest in building a government health care system and the private system is a total failure.  Employers have already been cutting hours and instituting part time employment to make more money.  That has less to do with healthcare more because they can.  That bill is a funded law that was passed when the Republicans didn't have the House.  They want to post fact have a say in it but it is too late for that and there is no reason to do what they are doing.  They could be involved in the program and have some constructive input but that is not what they want to do.

[AwesomeMcCoolName]

Republicans have no interest in building a government health care system and the private system is a total failure.  Employers have already been cutting hours and instituting part time employment to make more money.  That has less to do with healthcare more because they can. 

Social medicine doesn't exactly work very well unfortunately, (nor do any government run programs--e.g.: social security). I've heard so many horror stories from people i've met while traveling throughout Canada and Europe where because of the social system, it took them 6 months to get a test and even then it wasn't all the tests they needed, and by the time they finally got all the tests they needed it was too late and they were already terminal. And employers have been cutting hours (resulting in part-time employees) in order to avoid the fine for not providing health care for your employees. 

 

If social medicine was soo good, then how come the richest of the rich in social medicine countries (couldn't think of a better way to phrase it), and congress don't want to be on the social system? 

 

The problem with the medical system is lawyers and law suits. Doctors are afraid to be a doctor. Most doctors can diagnose whats wrong with you without running a bunch of tests, but because of all the law suits doctors are afraid to make decisions like that, fearing malpractice lawsuits. As a result medicine is far more expensive then it should be. I.e. it shouldn't cost a few hundred thousand dollars to get a bypass surgery....thats outrageous. And the sole reason for the extraordinary cost is all the lawsuits and insurance required my doctors to not get completely screwed every time they make a mistake, which is inevitable based on the limited knowledge we actually have of the human body.

[jorisk322]

Social medicine doesn't exactly work very well unfortunately, (nor do any government run programs--e.g.: social security). I've heard so many horror stories from people i've met while traveling throughout Canada and Europe where because of the social system, it took them 6 months to get a test and even then it wasn't all the tests they needed, and by the time they finally got all the tests they needed it was too late and they were already terminal. And employers have been cutting hours (resulting in part-time employees) in order to avoid the fine for not providing health care for your employees. 

 

If social medicine was soo good, then how come the richest of the rich in social medicine countries (couldn't think of a better way to phrase it), and congress don't want to be on the social system? 

 

The problem with the medical system is lawyers and law suits. Doctors are afraid to be a doctor. Most doctors can diagnose whats wrong with you without running a bunch of tests, but because of all the law suits doctors are afraid to make decisions like that, fearing malpractice lawsuits. As a result medicine is far more expensive then it should be. I.e. it shouldn't cost a few hundred thousand dollars to get a bypass surgery....thats outrageous. And the sole reason for the extraordinary cost is all the lawsuits and insurance required my doctors to not get completely screwed every time they make a mistake, which is inevitable based on the limited knowledge we actually have of the human body.

Rich people don't need this kind of healthcare system. That's why they don't want it. 

I'm not sure what country you're talking about when you're talking about those horror-stories, but usually healthcare insurance does what it's meant for: Allow people who can't afford necessary medical treatment to get it anyways, WITHOUT cooking crystal meth.

The lawsuit-thing is just one of the weird things that happen in America. Those don't happen were I live. In my opinion that's just one of the many things that America also needs to fix. It's almost impossible to fix anything though, because the political parties in America are just trying to screw each-other over.

I live in the Netherlands. Healthcare insurance is mandatory here for everyone, and it works quite well. I personally know a few people who would not be alive right now if it weren't for this system (one of them being my mother).

[There]

Rich people don't need this kind of healthcare system. That's why they don't want it. 

I'm not sure what country you're talking about when you're talking about those horror-stories, but usually healthcare insurance does what it's meant for: Allow people who can't afford necessary medical treatment to get it anyways, WITHOUT cooking crystal meth.

The lawsuit-thing is just one of the weird things that happen in America. Those don't happen were I live. In my opinion that's just one of the many things that America also needs to fix. It's almost impossible to fix anything though, because the political parties in America are just trying to screw each-other over.

I live in the Netherlands. Healthcare insurance is mandatory here for everyone, and it works quite well. I personally know a few people who would not be alive right now if it weren't for this system (one of them being my mother).

 

So they don't want free healthcare because they have a lot of money and prefer paying for something they could get an equal quality equivalent of for free? Yeah, sure.

 

Second, we don't deny treatment to anyone here, even with private insurance. If you have a broken arm and you go to the emergency room, you will be treated, regardless of whether you have insurance or not.

 

Third, he didn't cook crystal meth to pay for the treatment. He cooked it so that his family has enough money to live after he dies. 

 

Fourth, how do you fix it? I'd be interested to know. Besides, if there was a solution that stopped frivolous lawsuits over malpractice, why would any political party not support it? There are some things (albeit very few) they agree on. 

[AwesomeMcCoolName]

Rich people don't need this kind of healthcare system. That's why they don't want it. 

I'm not sure what country you're talking about when you're talking about those horror-stories, but usually healthcare insurance does what it's meant for: Allow people who can't afford necessary medical treatment to get it anyways, WITHOUT cooking crystal meth.

The lawsuit-thing is just one of the weird things that happen in America. Those don't happen were I live. In my opinion that's just one of the many things that America also needs to fix. It's almost impossible to fix anything though, because the political parties in America are just trying to screw each-other over.

I live in the Netherlands. Healthcare insurance is mandatory here for everyone, and it works quite well. I personally know a few people who would not be alive right now if it weren't for this system (one of them being my mother).

 The rich people are paying for it anyway in their taxes. So why are the ALSO paying for their own private health insurance? (*cough* social medicine is crap *cough*). Nothing run by the government is efficient. Those countries would be Canada, England, and Germany. I know someone who lives in Canada who went to the doctor with chest pain, he was told he can get an upper GI, he was scheduled for an Upper GI for 6 months later. He got the upper gi and it came back negative. They then ran a lower gi 3 months later only to find out the cancer had already spread and he was now too late to do anything. Or how someones father (who was 65) died because it wasn't "practical" for him to get open-heart surgery. 

 

And There answered pretty much everything else. 

Fourth, how do you fix it? I'd be interested to know. Besides, if there was a solution that stopped frivolous lawsuits over malpractice, why would any political party not support it? There are some things (albeit very few) they agree on. 

The only fix that i can see would be to eliminate lawyers and allow doctors to be doctors. Let doctors do what doctors do best, and diagnose. Forcing them to jump through hoops, and then ask 12 other people for their opinions (radiologists, pathologists, etc...) just isn't practical. 

 

Another big problem with the medical system is that a lot of people don't get regular check ups and as a result are forced to go to the ER (which is quite expensive in comparison to yearly checkups--ultimately costing the tax payers money). And then theres the people who rush to the ER when they get the cold and further drive prices up. People need to learn to take better care of themselves and get a checkup regularly (once a year/every couple years...just something). Its not even a money issue as there are plenty of free clinics, people would just rather wait until something gets really bad.

[The 4th Harbringer]

You do realize that the majority of Americans *still* oppose universal healthcare, right?

 

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/obama_and_democrats_health_care_plan-1130.html

 

When both the left-leaning and right-leaning statistical groups give it a negative number, you can get a good idea that it doesn't have public support.

 

When it was passed, it had about a 60% disapproval rating.

 

It's a monstrous bill, and wanting it to have funding is horrendously stupid. It's thousands of pages long, filled with pork and incriminating passages galore. You can be sure that not a single representative has read even 50% of the pages in that bill.

 

So why do we want it again?

 

Healthcare done right can be good, even though there are few shining examples of success in the world right now.

 

But a 1000+ page bill?

 

It's okay to be on the side of affordable care, just don't be a moron and jump at the first bill that addresses it. Obongocare is shit, and any measure that can be taken to dismantle it would be a blessing to the nation.

 

It doesn't matter if it was passed in an all-democratic congress when repubs were out of power. There's a reason we're back to a split congress again -- midterm elections for 2010 focused on that bill, and repubs took congress by force.

 

On a side note, as expected, congress gave the fat overpaid fed workers back their paychecks again, so that's not a complaint that should be discussed on this thread anymore.

 

 

 

Also, debt ceiling in 10 days, that will be some scary shit.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uq6rEbESjA

[MC22]

Well the shutdown hasn't affected me

It's fine, I wasn't planning on going to a national park/museum

[jorisk322]

So they don't want free healthcare because they have a lot of money and prefer paying for something they could get an equal quality equivalent of for free? Yeah, sure.

 

Second, we don't deny treatment to anyone here, even with private insurance. If you have a broken arm and you go to the emergency room, you will be treated, regardless of whether you have insurance or not.

 

Third, he didn't cook crystal meth to pay for the treatment. He cooked it so that his family has enough money to live after he dies. 

 

Fourth, how do you fix it? I'd be interested to know. Besides, if there was a solution that stopped frivolous lawsuits over malpractice, why would any political party not support it? There are some things (albeit very few) they agree on. 

1. Nothing is free. You don't get free health-insurance. The bill is just spread out, because that way you can make sure EVERYBODY can afford healthcare. Rich people will probably pay more than they do right now, so they don't need this.

2. You may get treated, but when you don't have insurance and you get the bill, you're fucked.

3. Fair enough, but that's not the point I was trying to make.

4. You can fix weird lawsuits by not having fucked up laws. You're right, this is nearly impossible to fix in the USA because all the laws would need to be rewritten. Also, lots of people in the parties benefit from weird laws. They don't benefit from the same things most people benefit from. That's a problem in any indirect democracy though, and impossible to change.

[jorisk322]

 The rich people are paying for it anyway in their taxes. So why are the ALSO paying for their own private health insurance? (*cough* social medicine is crap *cough*). Nothing run by the government is efficient. Those countries would be Canada, England, and Germany. I know someone who lives in Canada who went to the doctor with chest pain, he was told he can get an upper GI, he was scheduled for an Upper GI for 6 months later. He got the upper gi and it came back negative. They then ran a lower gi 3 months later only to find out the cancer had already spread and he was now too late to do anything. Or how someones father (who was 65) died because it wasn't "practical" for him to get open-heart surgery. 

 

And There answered pretty much everything else. 

The only fix that i can see would be to eliminate lawyers and allow doctors to be doctors. Let doctors do what doctors do best, and diagnose. Forcing them to jump through hoops, and then ask 12 other people for their opinions (radiologists, pathologists, etc...) just isn't practical. 

 

Another big problem with the medical system is that a lot of people don't get regular check ups and as a result are forced to go to the ER (which is quite expensive in comparison to yearly checkups--ultimately costing the tax payers money). And then theres the people who rush to the ER when they get the cold and further drive prices up. People need to learn to take better care of themselves and get a checkup regularly (once a year/every couple years...just something). Its not even a money issue as there are plenty of free clinics, people would just rather wait until something gets really bad.

I think it's good that rich people help pay for health insurance for poor people. Everybody should be able to afford healthcare.

The fix you see for the lawsuits is exactly how it works in most European countries.

Yearly check-ups aren't something you want. They actually cost more than just having people go to the ER. Plus, people will still go there if they think something's wrong with them. It might be a good idea to have yearly check-ups for people with a high risk of X (like former cancer-patients, elderly people, etc.), but not for everybody.

 

EDIT:

Interesting video on the subject of healthcare cost in the US: 

[AwesomeMcCoolName]

There already is free medical care in America....If you show up in the ER and need medical treatment (broken bone) they will treat you, and its done. The rich people already pay for the poor people to get treatment in their own healthcare plans; how do you think healthcare works? People pay for their entire lifetimes and only get sick for small periods--the majority of the time you're paying for other people, not yourself. Furthermore if social medicine was soo good then why does anyone who can afford private medicine go private? --Short answer, social medicine is crap. It ends up screwing over the doctors, so they're few doctors and there is less incentive for people to become doctors. Secondly, it takes months to get the most basic of tests/treatments, during which time you could go from treatable to terminal. 

 

1. EVERYONE is forced to pay for healthcare, its part of the taxes. So why would a rich person pay for healthcare and then pay for it again if there was no need? Rich people usually aren't stupid--theres a reason why they're rich (excluding rich-by-birth people).

 

2. Not really, there are plenty of programs and payment plans which allow you to spread the payment out across years to the point where you're paying less than $100 a month.

 

4. Its not the fucked up laws thats the issue. Its the lawyers who don't let doctors be doctors. 

[Pyrocide]

Nothing good will come from the shutdown or OsamaCare passing. Its all shit IMO. 

[jorisk322]

There already is free medical care in America....If you show up in the ER and need medical treatment (broken bone) they will treat you, and its done. The rich people already pay for the poor people to get treatment in their own healthcare plans; how do you think healthcare works? People pay for their entire lifetimes and only get sick for small periods--the majority of the time you're paying for other people, not yourself. Furthermore if social medicine was soo good then why does anyone who can afford private medicine go private? --Short answer, social medicine is crap. It ends up screwing over the doctors, so they're few doctors and there is less incentive for people to become doctors. Secondly, it takes months to get the most basic of tests/treatments, during which time you could go from treatable to terminal. 

 

1. EVERYONE is forced to pay for healthcare, its part of the taxes. So why would a rich person pay for healthcare and then pay for it again if there was no need? Rich people usually aren't stupid--theres a reason why they're rich (excluding rich-by-birth people).

 

2. Not really, there are plenty of programs and payment plans which allow you to spread the payment out across years to the point where you're paying less than $100 a month.

 

4. Its not the fucked up laws thats the issue. Its the lawyers who don't let doctors be doctors. 

2. Yes, because that solves the problem

4. It is the fucked up laws. Lawyers can't do anything without the law. They have to follow it.

 

I don't have time to respond to the other points right now, but I might later.

[AwesomeMcCoolName]

4. It is the fucked up laws. Lawyers can't do anything without the law. They have to follow it.

Lawyers following laws. Thats cute. 

[puddingkip]

Lawyers following laws. Thats cute. 

If this is your thoughts (which are quite funded) it shows something about your legal system. And it's not a pretty thing

[AwesomeMcCoolName]

If this is your thoughts (which are quite funded) it shows something about your legal system. And it's not a pretty thing

O I agree, our legal system sucks. Lawyers twist words to mean things they were clearly never meant to mean, but there was still technically ambiguities. That's what our lawyers do.... They play on bulls hit technicalities to win cases.

[Pyrocide]

OJ Simpson and Casey Anthony. Nuff said about our legal system.

[F CHARLIE]

http://money.cnn.com/2012/07/12/news/economy/health-care-costs/index.htm

 

This is a list of factors contributing to the rise of health care and health insurance.

[HeavyLord]

Some Americans said that it wasn't a total "shutdown" the government is still kind of working there. I don't know if I should believe that or not

[Vegan T-Rex]

I think it's good that rich people help pay for health insurance for poor people. Everybody should be able to afford healthcare.

The fix you see for the lawsuits is exactly how it works in most European countries.

Yearly check-ups aren't something you want. They actually cost more than just having people go to the ER. Plus, people will still go there if they think something's wrong with them. It might be a good idea to have yearly check-ups for people with a high risk of X (like former cancer-patients, elderly people, etc.), but not for everybody.

 

EDIT:

Interesting video on the subject of healthcare cost in the US: 

JOHN GREEN MY BB

Interesting vid as well.