♠Derpeh♤ Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Your idea seems too complicated as of now, judge jury...etc Why not just make it simple? A few admins (Minimum 3 admins and can be open for more for the more controversial reports) review reports and evidence given, and a minimum of lets say 75% who agree the user should be marked then bam. As a side note, if you're going to start a new site you need to make sure your admins are 100% trustable with impeccable reputation and have a high level of knowledge about trading/scammers. One of the very reasons why sourcerep was seen as awesome and then nose dived into a joke was because many of their admins were banned users...etc. You're a new site asking people to trust you, for users to allow you to decide who is welcome and who isnt welcome to the community, regardless of your personal relationships with them your public image will be of the utmost importance. Though it might be harsh for me to say this, if you are serious about this site I would recommend you to not be a admin/public figure to such a site especially with your current shark ban on outpost as it will immediately come off as a joke. Most users here like you and know you at some level, others wont (Maybe sideline it giving admins advice for a while first?). Again, the public image of your site will be of the utmost importance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Professional Map Painter Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 FYI, the golden wrench incident was before he became a Valve employee. He's a Valve employee now, hence he can be considered a "direct connection to Valve" regardless of what other ppl say. Pretty sure he was working at Valve then, that's how he knew when the wrenches would drop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasuke200 Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Pretty sure he was working at Valve then, that's how he knew when the wrenches would drop. False, he was able to figure it out the exact timings and then reported it. That is something that helped to get him land the job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♠Derpeh♤ Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 I'd say, a good 50+ staff members (from start) and at least 5+ full partnership and support from the largest TF2 trading communties and this can be considered as a project to work on. I doubt it'll survive longer than Sourcerep if there's a 15y.o admin with no knowledge nor time to get this going. Even I don't really understand how much time or thought through all the things that would need to be done. It's a massive project and to make it successful, a massive amount of support and people are needed. Not just a one-person-project with previously tagged/banned traders who just wanna try mark the difference between good or bad trader. If you're just starting out as a new website working with such a large number of admins will cripple you. I would recommend no more than 10 dedicated admins reviewing reports from the beginning, as the site will be new, you need to set a standard allowing others to follow, having such a large number of admins means coordinating will take ages, "verdicts" will be all over the place and because you dont have any reputation/trust with the community you place doubts for users to trust you. You need to start thinking smaller, focus on what matters most and then expanding, rushing into things will only end up like sourcerep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d0 ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 If you're just starting out as a new website working with such a large number of admins will cripple you. I would recommend no more than 10 dedicated admins reviewing reports from the beginning, as the site will be new, you need to set a standard allowing others to follow, having such a large number of admins means coordinating will take ages, "verdicts" will be all over the place and because you dont have any reputation/trust with the community you place doubts for users to trust you. You need to start thinking smaller, focus on what matters most and then expanding, rushing into things will only end up like sourcerep. Was thinking staff members as everything from coder, forum admin, mods and all those things. Not just admins who decide on reports. Obv over 50people for reviewing reports might be asking 2 much at start. I however feel to "compete" or be more successful than Steamrep, it'd need a larger amount of people compared to Steamrep. I just don't think focus on moving one piece from a haystack will work. But I'm no expert in this area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gren Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Venom contacted me and we had a long discussion. A summary of the conversation - We'd need full support with trading sites (tf2op, bp.tf, scrap.tf etc), partnership, get assistance from old/current SR staff members. If there would be a "new Steamrep" it'd need a very very large amount of work. We would also need a very large amount staff members, and not just any users. We'd need the most experienced and trustworthy traders in the community. I feel with brainstorming about "what the name should be" - It's not making things look serious at all. A site to replace Steamrep needs a huge dedication, just to start things up.... Then continue through the rest of the TF2 trading life. Which I didn't see in Sourcerep.. Minors, was more of a "rage-creation" and they didn't think of much to make it successful. It'd take many months to build a strong staff and site to cover all the previous scammers and use a good system users can understand. Not to mention create partnership with most of the communties. It's not about "let's create a forum and go". This is months of prepartion and lots of discussions with other communities to make this accessible for any user. I'm not sure if there's anyone who can do that, nor if there's a large group of people ready to create a "new Steamrep". If people think we need a good handful of people and a free hosted forum, then you're obv not experienced or understand how much time is needed for this. I'd say, a good 50+ staff members (from start) and at least 5+ full partnership and support from the largest TF2 trading communties and this can be considered as a project to work on. I doubt it'll survive longer than Sourcerep if there's a 15y.o admin with no knowledge nor time to get this going. Even I don't really understand how much time or thought through all the things that would need to be done. It's a massive project and to make it successful, a massive amount of support and people are needed. Not just a one-person-project with previously tagged/banned traders who just wanna try mark the difference between good or bad trader. One does not simply make a new Steam Rep.... Seriously though, like you pointed out, this would be a huge amount of work and that's just the set up. As I said, i question why we need a second SR. We don't need SR anymore as it is, the individual communities seem to handle bans just fine on their own (well, OP and BP anyway). I think a much more worthwhile effort would be connecting what we already have without SR, i.e. Backpack's rep system, OP bans and rep.tf and make that work. This alone would be quite the undertaking and a worthwhile project. Let's not forget though that the issue is that SR is still seen by virtually all communities to be the paramount authority in TF2 trading. Until you manage to change that, nothing will change... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Professional Map Painter Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 False, he was able to figure it out the exact timings and then reported it. That is something that helped to get him land the job. Well, that's odd. I didn't think Valve would hire a VAC Banned user, but I guess they have their reasons for giving a job to the guy who created the TF2Idler program and exploited the Golden Wrenches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utsoob Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 I'll say it again like I said before This won't work, People have tried this before, and for the love of God quit deleting my status updates Sugarcube. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grimdercell Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Well, that's odd. I didn't think Valve would hire a VAC Banned user, but I guess they have their reasons for giving a job to the guy who created the TF2Idler program and exploited the Golden Wrenches.When someone repeatedly finds loopholes and exploits in your game, it's only wise to get him on your side to patch it up for you. Also, getting VAC banned has nothing to do with his reputation in his resume. If his qualifications and personality fits in their organizational structure, I don't see why they wouldn't hire him. It's not as if he's applying for a moderator post in an online community where users will shoot you down if you have a bad rep or something. He's working as a programmer, not a PR manager. We're kinda going off topic, so I'll stop at here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polar Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 I don't actually understand why we need a second SR. We don't need SR anymore, period. Let the individual sites handle their bans. BP and OP seem to be doing just fine banning (mostly appropriately, at least in the case of BP.tf) scammers and scammer alts without waiting for 6 months for SR to finally tag them. I mean, what does a tag mean nowadays anyway? The tag ALWAYS comes after the ban nowadays. Both sites are good about listing the ban reason, so you know for example, just because somebody set their back to private, you can still safely trade with them whereas if someone got banned for being a scammer, it's probably a good idea to hold off. Just let the sites handle their business, they're doing it already anyway. I'm just going to point out that this works if you have staff that actually like doing this work. I hate doing this. Ban appeals? Even worse. This is INCREDIBLY time consuming, but you are doing an injustice to banned / accused users by not doing the due diligence. We do this out of obligation, not because we like doing it. Having an operational SR is what we would all like. As much as TS and Ploko enjoy handling these kind of reports, ask them if they would like a functional SR and I'm willing to wager they wouldn't be able to say "yes" fast enough. You might say, why not hire people to do the work you dislike. I can tell you that the number of people (1) experienced, (2) mature, (3) trustworthy enough that we'd trust with putting people's trading careers on the line is vanishingly small. This is also a problem with starting a site like this because you need not just one or two such people but an entire team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cave Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 I'm just going to point out that this works if you have staff that actually like doing this work. I hate doing this. Ban appeals? Even worse. This is INCREDIBLY time consuming, but you are doing an injustice to banned / accused users by not doing the due diligence. We do this out of obligation, not because we like doing it. Having an operational SR is what we would all like. As much as TS and Ploko enjoy handling these kind of reports, ask them if they would like a functional SR and I'm willing to wager they wouldn't be able to say "yes" fast enough. You might say, why not hire people to do the work you dislike. I can tell you that the number of people (1) experienced, (2) mature, (3) trustworthy enough that we'd trust with putting people's trading careers on the line is vanishingly small. This is also a problem with starting a site like this because you need not just one or two such people but an entire team. Best answer of this whole topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheVenomWithin Posted March 25, 2015 Author Share Posted March 25, 2015 bump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
λngelღмander Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 I'm just going to point out that this works if you have staff that actually like doing this work. I hate doing this. Ban appeals? Even worse. This is INCREDIBLY time consuming, but you are doing an injustice to banned / accused users by not doing the due diligence. We do this out of obligation, not because we like doing it. Having an operational SR is what we would all like. As much as TS and Ploko enjoy handling these kind of reports, ask them if they would like a functional SR and I'm willing to wager they wouldn't be able to say "yes" fast enough. You might say, why not hire people to do the work you dislike. I can tell you that the number of people (1) experienced, (2) mature, (3) trustworthy enough that we'd trust with putting people's trading careers on the line is vanishingly small. This is also a problem with starting a site like this because you need not just one or two such people but an entire team. The reason the amount of people mentioned as "trustworthy" enough is "vanishingly small" is because of the sheer unwillingness and possibly inability of the admins of currently operational websites to allow the people who fit the other criteria to become a moderator. It is very hard to become reputable in a community where becoming reputable is inclusive and difficult to do without having your foot in the door, which most people don't start out having. As such, it's failure is a self fulfilling prophecy. In the real world, employers take risks every day. There could easily be a system to prevent newer moderators and admins from causing too much damage if they were bad at what they did, they could be weeded out early before anything happened. Maybe applying for a position would simply mean that you get a little more involved in the process, and monitored by the admins who then make a decision about you. Not making concessions to allow users to prove themselves is exactly why there are so few people who are reputable in the community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Explosion-chan Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 the best admins steam has to offer. Not sure how this is even remotely true Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasuke200 Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 The reason the amount of people mentioned as "trustworthy" enough is "vanishingly small" is because of the sheer unwillingness and possibly inability of the admins of currently operational websites to allow the people who fit the other criteria to become a moderator. It is very hard to become reputable in a community where becoming reputable is inclusive and difficult to do without having your foot in the door, which most people don't start out having. As such, it's failure is a self fulfilling prophecy. In the real world, employers take risks every day. There could easily be a system to prevent newer moderators and admins from causing too much damage if they were bad at what they did, they could be weeded out early before anything happened. Maybe applying for a position would simply mean that you get a little more involved in the process, and monitored by the admins who then make a decision about you. Not making concessions to allow users to prove themselves is exactly why there are so few people who are reputable in the community. In real life, if you do some shady stuff at your job they can find you. Over a monitor, anyone could really be anyone and get away with things that are not illegal or are borderline legal sometimes. In a job where you handle sensitive information, you would most likely have to sign a contract and such but what about over a screen? Another thing I wanted to point out was that sometimes scammers will try and bribe people, a big time scammer would without a doubt be able to throw a few thousand at someone if they can easily make it back and more by having their ban delayed. Also the staff members can't be biased aswell and cannot take bribes, this is where it becomes difficult to find someone because anyone can really be anyone online. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
λngelღмander Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 In real life, if you do some shady stuff at your job they can find you. Over a monitor, anyone could really be anyone and get away with things that are not illegal or are borderline legal sometimes. In a job where you handle sensitive information, you would most likely have to sign a contract and such but what about over a screen? Another thing I wanted to point out was that sometimes scammers will try and bribe people, a big time scammer would without a doubt be able to throw a few thousand at someone if they can easily make it back and more by having their ban delayed. Also the staff members can't be biased aswell and cannot take bribes, this is where it becomes difficult to find someone because anyone can really be anyone online. If there are enough moderators and admins, one mod/admin's decision may not be enough to deter a mark. It would be like swatting a beast with a flyswatter at that point, and not everyone has paypal, and even further than that, not everyone is corrupt. Eventually, things like that will happen, but they probably happen in any system, and that can't be prevented. And if shady things happen over a monitor, they can be seen and reversed, and the culprit fired, possibly even marked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenrir Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 No. The whole reason people didn't like SourceRep was because the admins were banned on Outpost and one was a known shark. This does nothing to solve the problem, it only makes it worse since the known shark is going to run the entire thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Professional Map Painter Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 No. The whole reason people didn't like SourceRep was because the admins were banned on Outpost and one was a known shark. This does nothing to solve the problem, it only makes it worse since the known shark is going to run the entire thing. Been covered already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cookie Monster Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 No. The whole reason people didn't like SourceRep was because the admins were banned on Outpost and one was a known shark. This does nothing to solve the problem, it only makes it worse since the known shark is going to run the entire thing. Outpost bans don't really matter as I've seen some really bullcrap bans for sharking. Ive also seen people put their personal issues with that person into the ban. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheVenomWithin Posted March 26, 2015 Author Share Posted March 26, 2015 No. The whole reason people didn't like SourceRep was because the admins were banned on Outpost and one was a known shark. This does nothing to solve the problem, it only makes it worse since the known shark is going to run the entire thing. I'm not running the thing. I'm merely getting started with the ideas and the general start up of the site. Once that is completed, I will be stepping down passing my role down to someone more reputable as I understand that with me being leader or merely having any part at all with the site will cause some of you to not take it seriously (Even though I still find that funny) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenrir Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 I'm not running the thing. I'm merely getting started with the ideas and the general start up of the site. Once that is completed, I will be stepping down passing my role down to someone more reputable as I understand that with me being leader or merely having any part at all with the site will cause some of you to not take it seriously (Even though I still find that funny) I dont know why you find it funny. I dont know why you think people will trust a site headed by a shark. Its like if a venture fund was headed by a known Pyramid schemer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheVenomWithin Posted March 26, 2015 Author Share Posted March 26, 2015 I dont know why you find it funny. I dont know why you think people will trust a site headed by a shark. Its like if a venture fund was headed by a known Pyramid schemer You seem to forget that I am no longer considered a shark by the vast majority of users. Doesn't change what I did. I'm still considered untrustworthy. The thing is damn near everyone is past this by now. I'm merely stepping down later to appease the ones that still do care. I get your point, please don't make this discussion about me though :^) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenrir Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 You seem to forget that I am no longer considered a shark by the vast majority of users. Doesn't change what I did. I'm still considered untrustworthy. The thing is damn near everyone is past this by now. I'm merely stepping down later to appease the ones that still do care. I get your point, please don't make this discussion about me though :^) anyways, we will never be able to make a SteamRep 2.0, all we can do is try and ammend the current steam rep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cares Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 I dont know why you find it funny. I dont know why you think people will trust a site headed by a shark. Its like if a venture fund was headed by a known Pyramid schemer. Teeird used to shark too. Yet people trust him, tf2shop, and tf2shop's derivatives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puddingkip Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Teeird used to shark too. Yet people trust him, tf2shop, and tf2shop's derivatives. Do you have any proof at all to back this up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.