Tats Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Churches having their own 'rules' are all well and good, but you're fundamentally mis-understanding the meaning and purpose of a 'law'. As in, something imposed by the ruling body that all under it must obey, and exceptions aren't made just because some book doesn't like it. Fans of Lord of the Rings aren't allowed to murder each other even if some of them dress up as Orcs. Are you saying that the Church must apply the law, and marry same-sex couples in a church ? There is nothing illegal in Church who doesn't want to apply same-sex marriage. If a law has been voted, this applies to city councils, not to churches, synagogues, mosques or so. If there is a law for same-sex marriage, then it's a right of general application. In this case, that will be the exception that confirms the rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gent♥ Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Are you saying that the Church must apply the law, and marry same-sex couples in a church ? There is nothing illegal in Church who doesn't want to apply same-sex marriage. If a law has been voted, this applies to city councils, not to churches, synagogues, mosques or so. If there is a law for same-sex marriage, then it's a right of general application. In this case, that will be the exception that confirms the rule. ...Yes it applied to Churches. It does if they want to continue operating the countries with legalised gay marriage and not be sued repeatedly and expensively for discrimination. The 'exception that proves the rule' argument can't just be 'an exception', and this doesn't prove anything. As proof of this, gay 'civil partnerships', essentially the city council version of marriage, has been legal pretty much since 1967 when being gay stopped officially being an illness. Legalising marriage is SPECIFICALLY applying it to churches. That's the POINT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Explosion-chan Posted January 11, 2015 Author Share Posted January 11, 2015 ...Yes it applied to Churches. It does if they want to continue operating the countries with legalised gay marriage and not be sued repeatedly and expensively for discrimination. The 'exception that proves the rule' argument can't just be 'an exception', and this doesn't prove anything. As proof of this, gay 'civil partnerships', essentially the city council version of marriage, has been legal pretty much since 1967 when being gay stopped officially being an illness. Legalising marriage is SPECIFICALLY applying it to churches. That's the POINT. Actually, churches don't have to marry homosexuals, at least in America. The legalize gay marriage thing isn't just about churches Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tats Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 ...Yes it applied to Churches. It does if they want to continue operating the countries with legalised gay marriage and not be sued repeatedly and expensively for discrimination. The 'exception that proves the rule' argument can't just be 'an exception', and this doesn't prove anything. As proof of this, gay 'civil partnerships', essentially the city council version of marriage, has been legal pretty much since 1967 when being gay stopped officially being an illness. Legalising marriage is SPECIFICALLY applying it to churches. That's the POINT. It is called dictatorship or authoritarian regimes : Church and other religions are no longer free institutions. This is how it has functionned after the french revolution and during the terror. Then came the Concordat, and the law of separation between State and Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gent♥ Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 It is called dictatorship or authoritarian regimes : Church and other religions are no longer free institutions. This is how it has functionned after the french revolution and during the terror. Then came the Concordat, and the law of separation between State and Church. ...Nnnnnno. I could set up a 'free institution' in my back yard, that doesn't suddenly give me diplomatic immunity, Family Guy of all things established that. After the French Revolution is hardly a comparable condition, the entire country was in free-fall. This is the 21st century, some relevant examples would be awesome, I'm sick of the tradition argument, it's rubbish. Metal, I'll withold my opinions on America in particular (regulars will know where I stand), but I can reliably inform you that America appears to be the only country where that is the case. Presumably because your Church, along with your other traditional ,outdated values (hi second amendment!), are so horribly entrenched that to question them is, ironically, some cardinal sin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tats Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 ...Nnnnnno. I could set up a 'free institution' in my back yard, that doesn't suddenly give me diplomatic immunity, Family Guy of all things established that. After the French Revolution is hardly a comparable condition, the entire country was in free-fall. This is the 21st century, some relevant examples would be awesome, I'm sick of the tradition argument, it's rubbish. France is not the only example, Roman Empire, Communist revolutions, Third Reich, also the Elias Calles mandatory in Mexico, Daesh, etc. Past repeats itself very often. You don't need to believe in God to establish a dictatorship : forcing people to do things against their will and conscience, for instance marrying gays. By the way, life is all about discrimination as we don't born equal. Don't use the argument, not marrying gays is discrimination. If someone tells you he wants to marry a monkey and his local church refuses to marry him, it is discrimination too. We don't go much far with this argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Python. Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Kind of related: A black friend said to me that gays can be with each other, but can't get married I brought up he was hypocritical, seeing as he is black and the lack of rights towards that race for a long time in America His response was that people can't choose to be black, but people can choose to be gay He didn't get my point Opinions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaqkAudio Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Kind of related: A black friend said to me that gays can be with each other, but can't get married I brought up he was hypocritical, seeing as he is black and the lack of rights towards that race for a long time in America His response was that people can't choose to be black, but people can choose to be gay He didn't get my point Opinions? http://forums.backpack.tf/index.php?/topic/17980-do-people-choose-to-be-gay/ Last time this was discussed, a huge flame war happened. Not a good idea to start again. Plus it's not really relevant to this thread at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Splat Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Kind of related: A black friend said to me that gays can be with each other, but can't get married I brought up he was hypocritical, seeing as he is black and the lack of rights towards that race for a long time in America His response was that people can't choose to be black, but people can choose to be gay He didn't get my point Opinions? well he's wrong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Python. Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Plus it's not really relevant to this thread at all. Step 1: Read the title of this thread Step 2: Read the first sentence of my comment Step 3: Relevancy??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deku Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 I believe myself to be a fairly foundational Christian. That said, I see the issue of gay marriage differently than most. My philosophy is that, since we aren't supposed to judge others because we ourselves are flawed and because all sins end up being equal. (pleas don't take this statement of out context and flame on it) That means that I personally do not find gay marriage to actually be any of my business because it doesn't effect me for the most part. If there was a way in which it really affected me, I would likely disagree with it because it's not something I support, but since it doesn't, I'm all for it. Does anyone find this strange or do you agree? As a fellow Christian, I have to somewhat disagree, but also agree a bit. Yes, it does not affect us, but we still need to fight against its legality just like with abortion. If we are just silent followers, what help are we providing to God's Kingdom? -snip- I do agree with you that it should not happen within the church as that would be promoting sin within a church environment (which is contradictory). However I would not encourage it outside the church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gent♥ Posted January 29, 2015 Share Posted January 29, 2015 As a fellow Christian, I have to somewhat disagree, but also agree a bit. Yes, it does not affect us, but we still need to fight against its legality just like with abortion. If we are just silent followers, what help are we providing to God's Kingdom? And what stops you minding your own business, exactly? If you're of the opinion that we're all going to hell simply for who we are, why are you trying to make our time on EARTH unhappy as well? That's just sickening, and possibly the least 'Christian' thing I've ever heard in my life. Let gay marriage be. You may object when it comes into your holy building, fine, I respect that. But objecting anywhere else is you forcing your beliefs down our throats, which hasn't been a tenant of Christianity since about 1348. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keroro1454 Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 It specifically states "Marriage is between a man and a woman". Honestly, I don't remember that in the New Testament, if someone wants to link me that would be great (I feel like Paul might have said something in a letter, but I dunno, I feel like Jesus' "love thy neighbor" overrules that, my opinion is you can't truly love someone if you are actively suppressing their happiness). From what I can recall off the top of my head, that's only emphasized directly in the Old Testament as a law. People use quotes like when Jesus talks about a man and a woman, but that is (as far as I have seen) in context of childbirth. Now, Jesus came to create a new covenant, i.e. no more old-school laws, hence why Christians aren't required to be circumcised, can eat whatever they want (excluding dietary restrictions emphasized during Lent), and we don't stone adulterers. Personally, I don't think there should be any law against homosexual marriage, we do have a separation of Church and State. However, that does go the other way around. If the Church is adamant about not having marriages in churches, we can't force it to change. It will likely adopt to the new age we live in, but on its own terms. Pushing it will just send it into a defensive reversal. That's my two-cents. Although I am no way a supporter of human-to-inanimate object marriage. They are either just screwing around, or need a mental stability check-up. I'm sorry. You can't have true love towards a roller coaster. Final Word (I enjoy doing these): You have your business, have fun. But you shouldn't hold your breath for the Church to allow it, and no it doesn't have to. The case of discrimination doesn't hold up in court due to Church separation, this has been seen before. But the Church likewise doesn't get to decide the law, so gay marriage is (and likely soon will be) legal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Splat Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 As a male who'd like to marry another man: shame on anyone who uses their religion to justify a pain in the ass to another human just because of who they love. Shame on anyone who wants to curb a couple's right because of who they are. Shame on anyone who wants to abuse their responsibility as a human to further the human race and take up a backwards opinion. I say shame on anyone who refuses to acknowledge that a transgender person is the gender that they choose to be. Shame on anyone who thinks that being gay or bisexual or transgender or queer is wrong. Shame on anyone who feels that gays aren't human. shame on anyone who hates anyone for their sexuality. If you are against gay marriage you are homophobic, not because you are afraid of gay people, but because you are surely afraid of a world where straight people and gay people are equal. Edit: please stop saying "homosexual". I hate the word, it gives the impression that because someone is gay that they are constantly sexual. To me, it means as much as "sodomist". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gent♥ Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 Edit: please stop saying "homosexual". I hate the word, it gives the impression that because someone is gay that they are constantly sexual. To me, it means as much as "sodomist". I agreed with you until you got all Tumblr on us. It's the technical term. It gives the impression that it's a technical term. I have never once heard somebody imply what you're implying from it outside of the Twatmosphere, and I'm a prominent member of a large university's LBGT+ society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Splat Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 I agreed with you until you got all Tumblr on us. It's the technical term. It gives the impression that it's a technical term. I have never once heard somebody imply what you're implying from it outside of the Twatmosphere, and I'm a prominent member of a large university's LBGT+ society. Yes it's okay in science, it's just usually referred to in the context of a condescending manner. How did I "go tumblr"? I've never been on Tumblr. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Explosion-chan Posted February 23, 2015 Author Share Posted February 23, 2015 As a male who'd like to marry another man: shame on anyone who uses their religion to justify a pain in the ass to another human just because of who they love. Shame on anyone who wants to curb a couple's right because of who they are. Shame on anyone who wants to abuse their responsibility as a human to further the human race and take up a backwards opinion. I say shame on anyone who refuses to acknowledge that a transgender person is the gender that they choose to be. Shame on anyone who thinks that being gay or bisexual or transgender or queer is wrong. Shame on anyone who feels that gays aren't human. shame on anyone who hates anyone for their sexuality. If you are against gay marriage you are homophobic, not because you are afraid of gay people, but because you are surely afraid of a world where straight people and gay people are equal. Edit: please stop saying "homosexual". I hate the word, it gives the impression that because someone is gay that they are constantly sexual. To me, it means as much as "sodomist". I'm sorry, do you just want me to call you gay? I find gay to be a more offensive and less accurate term than homosexual Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheVenomWithin Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 God made Adam and Eve. Not Adam and Steve. Ayeeee lmaoo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gent♥ Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 I'm sorry, do you just want me to call you gay? I find gay to be a more offensive and less accurate term than homosexual As do most people, you're fine. Gay's kinda come around into popular usage now though. Both are completely fine, context is more important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senpai Absol~ Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 As a Athist, So my religion-ish views cannot get in the way of how I see it. Gay marryige should be legal, Sadly my Mother and Father do not see the same way as me and think that is wrong, Same with white and a black person dating or having sexual relationships, in their eyes it is wrong. But they are athist as well, not some religion that blinds them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Santa Heavy Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 I'm okay with whatever you're okay with, just don't cram your beliefs down my throat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Splat Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Not sure where you live, gay is still an insult here, but I'd rather be called "gay" or "homo" rather than "homosexual" to be honest. I'm not gay though, I'm bi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gent♥ Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Not sure where you live, gay is still an insult here, but I'd rather be called "gay" or "homo" rather than "homosexual" to be honest. I'm not gay though, I'm bi I take it you're from, like, the deep South or something? I'm British, anyway. Gay can still be in insult here, but there are a couple caveats to that; A) It depends on the context and the usage - sorta like how calling a female dog a bitch isn't offensive (except for the one time that thieving bitch stole my dinner off the counter) B ) You have to be, with pretty much no exceptions, 12 years old to use it offensively and not look like the most immature homophobe this side of the black stump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Splat Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 I take it you're from, like, the deep South or something? I'm British, anyway. Gay can still be in insult here, but there are a couple caveats to that; A) It depends on the context and the usage - sorta like how calling a female dog a bitch isn't offensive (except for the one time that thieving bitch stole my dinner off the counter) B ) You have to be, with pretty much no exceptions, 12 years old to use it offensively and not look like the most immature homophobe this side of the black stump. Ireland. I'm in secondary school so, yes, a very homophobic environment where I'll never be open with my sexuality; I plan on living abroad as an adult, somewhere in Europe (probably NL or DK). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gent♥ Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 Ireland. I'm in secondary school so, yes, a very homophobic environment where I'll never be open with my sexuality; I plan on living abroad as an adult, somewhere in Europe (probably NL or DK). >Secondary School I see the problem. Just know the outside world isn't like that, at least :3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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