Let's replace our archaic ideas about scam prevention

[Gent♥]

I agree, people who scam once are likely to do it again. I'm not asking to be unbanned anymore, that time is over, I quit. I just wish I had been given just one warning, one one week ban or something, I could have lived with. I would have straightened out.

 

It wasn't that I was seeking them out, its that they sought me. Scammers will look for a naive trader with a lot of pure. I always had a lot of pure, and for a pretty good deal I would dish out my pure. I never thought to check people out. "It could never happen to me, right?"

I should not worry. I never used a blanket term, nor did I insinuate you in any unsavory business. You do, as it turns about, provide a sterling demonstration of my point.

 

The current system is based upon the half-truth that people cannot change. This does, as I stated, most likely require some reconsideration. Further thoughts on this particular point from other users would certainly lead this thread somewhere meaningful.

[M.G.B.]

I'm not gonna reveal confidential information from your appeal, but you should stop lying about "unknowingly" trading with scammers.

this isnt even supposed to be about mander in the first place but about how we approach scamming in tf2 right?

[λngelღмander]

I'm not gonna reveal confidential information from your appeal, but you should stop lying about "unknowingly" trading with scammers.

Actually, the information that I provided in my appeal, making me appear guilty, was me trying to appeal to you guys as people. I realized you wouldnt believe me if I simply claimed to be completely innocent (I had done things, either willingly or not)

 

The only trade I'd had suspicion about, I did research on the seller, and the guy's profile was legitimate, so i just went on with the sale. I really just didn't dig deep enough.

 

In only ONE case of the scam trades I was accused of, I was moderately suspicious, and upon (neglectfully, perhaps) coming to a conclusion the guy was legit, I concluded the trade

[Gent♥]

I'm not gonna reveal confidential information from your appeal, but you should stop lying about "unknowingly" trading with scammers.

If you don't intend to reveal it, I would not brandish it as if it were a weapon, dear sir. Such will only fan flames.

 

Angel's response has already begun the process of derailing this thread. I suggest, in a warm, calming tone, that you do not exacerbate this process further.

[>Sneaks]

Gent, are you a philosopher?

'Anyway, it will be damn hard to educate everyone, but there are tons of community guides on TF2 that teach you about phishing/scamming methods. It's like sex ed, the materials are out there, it's up to people to decide whether or not to read and heed their warnings.

And here's the other thing, not everyone is into high tier trading. Most of the people who trade generally look for keys or cheap stranges and regular hats. Yes, they can be scammed, too, but that will usually happen if they use 3rd party sites. (My policy is block everyone who adds me unless they notify me, no questions asked. Haven't gotten a phishing add in months.)

In my case, I usually check who I'm trading with just to make sure that I'm not getting a stolen item or to make sure that it's clean.

 

What I'm trying to say is that you can't just expect everything to be spoon fed to you, there are times when you will have to go and look for information about items/scams/scammers yourself, in order to better inform yourself.

[λngelღмander]

Since sirploko has kindly dropped in to make me seem more guilty of what I've been accused of, I'll explain the entire situation.

 

Three of the five hats I purchased from scammers I had no idea were scammers. They really truly did surprise me. The other two, a miami nights robo noble, and an orb planets brotherhood, I had some suspicions about.

 

I did research on the seller's profile, but I didn't see anything wrong with him. He had no pending reports, was not banned on any website, his profile was public, backpack.tf profile value history didn't spike, it was a gradual curve. Not to mention the guy was very nice and spoke clean english.

 

I made the mistake of not digging deep enough. When I was banned, I was... Not surprised to see those two hats in the report, but the other three, I really did shit my pants about.

[Grimes]

Gent, are you a philosopher?

'Anyway, it will be damn hard to educate everyone, but there are tons of community guides on TF2 that teach you about phishing/scamming methods. It's like sex ed, the materials are out there, it's up to people to decide whether or not to read and heed their warnings.

And here's the other thing, not everyone is into high tier trading. Most of the people who trade generally look for keys or cheap stranges and regular hats. Yes, they can be scammed, too, but that will usually happen if they use 3rd party sites. (My policy is block everyone who adds me unless they notify me, no questions asked. Haven't gotten a phishing add in months.)

In my case, I usually check who I'm trading with just to make sure that I'm not getting a stolen item or to make sure that it's clean.

 

What I'm trying to say is that you can't just expect everything to be spoon fed to you, there are times when you will have to go and look for information about items/scams/scammers yourself, in order to better inform yourself.

 

I think you're missing a fundamental point. The people who are foolish enough to fall for these scams are in most cases not smart enough to protect themselves, wether it be physically or through understanding that you shouldn't click these phishing links. 

 

People who click these links are so stupid, they are basically beyond help imo.

[Grimes]

Since sirploko has kindly dropped in to make me seem more guilty of what I've been accused of, I'll explain the entire situation.

 

Three of the five hats I purchased from scammers I had no idea were scammers. They really truly did surprise me. The other two, a miami nights robo noble, and an orb planets brotherhood, I had some suspicions about.

 

I did research on the seller's profile, but I didn't see anything wrong with him. He had no pending reports, was not banned on any website, his profile was public, backpack.tf profile value history didn't spike, it was a gradual curve. Not to mention the guy was very nice and spoke clean english.

 

I made the mistake of not digging deep enough. When I was banned, I was... Not surprised to see those two hats in the report, but the other three, I really did shit my pants about.

 

...but then you made an alt

[Gent♥]

Gent, are you a philosopher?

'Anyway, it will be damn hard to educate everyone, but there are tons of community guides on TF2 that teach you about phishing/scamming methods. It's like sex ed, the materials are out there, it's up to people to decide whether or not to read and heed their warnings.

And here's the other thing, not everyone is into high tier trading. Most of the people who trade generally look for keys or cheap stranges and regular hats. Yes, they can be scammed, too, but that will usually happen if they use 3rd party sites. (My policy is block everyone who adds me unless they notify me, no questions asked. Haven't gotten a phishing add in months.)

In my case, I usually check who I'm trading with just to make sure that I'm not getting a stolen item or to make sure that it's clean.

 

What I'm trying to say is that you can't just expect everything to be spoon fed to you, there are times when you will have to go and look for information about items/scams/scammers yourself, in order to better inform yourself.

 

Firstly, not a philosopher (which I say with deep regret), just well-versed in the means of presenting an argument.

 

Secondly, what Sneaks says is entirely correct, it is unreasonable to assume that people merely 'don't' check who they're trading with.

With no tangible store-fronts available in the tf2niverse, the only way to discern between a legitimate sweet vendor and a man who has painted 'sweets' on the side of his van is to check yourself.

 

However, if I recall correctly Outpost requires a brief introduction 'lesson', for want of a better word, on the rules of the site before users are allowed to offer. Optimising said introduction to include a warning about scammers could do wonders.

 

Though, as Grimes states, some people are, put bluntly, dumber than a sack of hammers. For these people, the 'warning' ban is the solution. Between these two changes, a solution, somewhat, is achieved.

[λngelღмander]

Gent, are you a philosopher?

'Anyway, it will be damn hard to educate everyone, but there are tons of community guides on TF2 that teach you about phishing/scamming methods. It's like sex ed, the materials are out there, it's up to people to decide whether or not to read and heed their warnings.

And here's the other thing, not everyone is into high tier trading. Most of the people who trade generally look for keys or cheap stranges and regular hats. Yes, they can be scammed, too, but that will usually happen if they use 3rd party sites. (My policy is block everyone who adds me unless they notify me, no questions asked. Haven't gotten a phishing add in months.)

In my case, I usually check who I'm trading with just to make sure that I'm not getting a stolen item or to make sure that it's clean.

 

What I'm trying to say is that you can't just expect everything to be spoon fed to you, there are times when you will have to go and look for information about items/scams/scammers yourself, in order to better inform yourself.

Well sneaks, thats a nice attitude and all, but one day, you're going to accidentally trade with a scammer, then you're all fuckin banned n shit, and you dont know what to do. Then you realize "If there were no scammers, I wouldnt have bought a scammed hat"

Its not that im worried about YOU getting scammed, you already know whats up, Its that NEW people will get scammed, and they dont even KNOW to look up information. Its them that get scammed, then you get hurt because of their stupidity. 

 

We need to stop the scams at their SOURCE.

 

 

 

 

Also, in this thread, please, lets stop making this personal, and talk about it in a purely objective way. This thread has nothing to do with me or cranwell, but about ending scamming.

[sirploko]

The only reason I brought it up, is that every banned user claims to be either innocent or ignorant. We don't permaban for minor offenses, more often than not, you will even get away with a temp ban and a warning if you trade with a scammer (alt) the first time.

 

We put a lot of of time and effort in cases like Angel*Manders and Cranwells and just because they claim they only "did it one time", doesn't make it true. I strongly believe that our system is fair and efficient. We all know Outpost is the site to be on, if you want to sell to a large audience and understandably people get upset when they get banned. But there is not single case of a permaban being issued without due process and a mountain of evidence, which is not always fully included in the ban reason.

[λngelღмander]

The only reason I brought it up, is that every banned user claims to be either innocent or ignorant. We don't permaban for minor offenses, more often than not, you will even get away with a temp ban and a warning if you trade with a scammer (alt) the first time.

 

We put a lot of of time and effort in cases like Angel*Manders and Cranwells and just because they claim they only "did it one time", doesn't make it true. I strongly believe that our system is fair and efficient. We all know Outpost is the site to be on, if you want to sell to a large audience and understandably people get upset when they get banned. But there is not single case of a permaban being issued without due process and a mountain of evidence, which is not always fully included in the ban reason.

You're completely correct. Though myself and people like me, the banned, often pose as angels and insult your system, if it were more individualized and less efficient it's very likely no one would get banned, not enough anyway. 

 

And yes, apparently I did do it more than one time. I did it about five, seven including the two you guys didn't manage to catch me on. I only recently realized the other two, because I hadn't known then, but in my newfound experience do know that they were scammed now. 

 

Anyway, the point is that often times, people get steamrolled by your process, and though it is as efficient as it can be, unless you add more mods, we get butthurt when our trading careers are put to an end when we somehow manage to trade a couple times with the wrong people.

 

 

 

Taking into perspective that I've owned 150+ unusuals and that only 7 were scammed, I don't think I really even did that bad. 

 

 

 

Also, if you guys had caught me on my first scammed hat, you probably WOULD have given me a warning, and I would probably still be trading. It's that I was allowed to go on trading without ever knowing that I really got fucked. 

[Grimes]

You're completely correct. Though myself and people like me, the banned, often pose as angels and insult your system, if it were more individualized and less efficient it's very likely no one would get banned, not enough anyway. 

 

And yes, apparently I did do it more than one time. I did it about five, seven including the two you guys didn't manage to catch me on. I only recently realized the other two, because I hadn't known then, but in my newfound experience do know that they were scammed now. 

 

Anyway, the point is that often times, people get steamrolled by your process, and though it is as efficient as it can be, unless you add more mods, we get butthurt when our trading careers are put to an end when we somehow manage to trade a couple times with the wrong people.

 

 

 

Taking into perspective that I've owned 150+ unusuals and that only 7 were scammed, I don't think I really even did that bad. 

 

I have had around that many and i've never owned a scammed unusual (to my knowledge of course)

[Gent♥]

The only reason I brought it up, is that every banned user claims to be either innocent or ignorant. We don't permaban for minor offenses, more often than not, you will even get away with a temp ban and a warning if you trade with a scammer (alt) the first time.

 

We put a lot of of time and effort in cases like Angel*Manders and Cranwells and just because they claim they only "did it one time", doesn't make it true. I strongly believe that our system is fair and efficient. We all know Outpost is the site to be on, if you want to sell to a large audience and understandably people get upset when they get banned. But there is not single case of a permaban being issued without due process and a mountain of evidence, which is not always fully included in the ban reason.

You present a strong argument. However, Outpost's monopolization of the unusual trading 'scene' is perhaps not something you should flaunt; as many people resent it as relish it.

Moreover, speaking on behalf of said trading behemoth is a tad presumptuous. Though you may have a better understanding than most, to be sure, it is still not quite your place to speak so openly without counsel.

 

Not including the full evidence within a ban reason is a gross perversion of justice, but I digress.

 

Just a warning, sir. Your words open you up to a fair amount of flame. I would brace yourself and not allow things to snowball, if I were you; such would not reflect well on a man of your position. With that I leave this in what I trust are capable hands.

[λngelღмander]

I have had around that many and i've never owned a scammed unusual (to my knowledge of course)

Hey, you never know. I didn't know I'd owned any scammed unusuals, (although I at one point had suspected one slightly), until the day I was banned. Maybe you'll wake up tomorrow and be banned for five or six scammed unusuals of your own, and be stuck in my position.

[Grimes]

Hey, you never know. I didn't know I'd owned any scammed unusuals, (although I at one point had suspected one slightly), until the day I was banned. Maybe you'll wake up tomorrow and be banned for five or six scammed unusuals of your own, and be stuck in my position.

 

I cashed out a while ago, they can mark me on steam rep for all I care

[λngelღмander]

I cashed out a while ago, they can mark me on steam rep for all I care

Yeah, After my ban, I made my alt, I got one solid week out of the alt before shadow somehow figured it out, though I changed my IP and my item histories.

 

If I hadn't felt cheated, or that my ban was unjust, I probably wouldnt have made that alt, and really, I'm only so candid about this because I know I have no chance of being unbanned. They could mark me on steamrep today and it really wouldnt matter to me, to be honest. :/

[sirploko]

You're completely correct. Though myself and people like me, the banned, often pose as angels and insult your system, if it were more individualized and less efficient it's very likely no one would get banned, not enough anyway. 

 

And yes, apparently I did do it more than one time. I did it about five, seven including the two you guys didn't manage to catch me on. I only recently realized the other two, because I hadn't known then, but in my newfound experience do know that they were scammed now. 

 

Anyway, the point is that often times, people get steamrolled by your process, and though it is as efficient as it can be, unless you add more mods, we get butthurt when our trading careers are put to an end when we somehow manage to trade a couple times with the wrong people.

 

 

 

Taking into perspective that I've owned 150+ unusuals and that only 7 were scammed, I don't think I really even did that bad. 

 

 

 

Also, if you guys had caught me on my first scammed hat, you probably WOULD have given me a warning, and I would probably still be trading. It's that I was allowed to go on trading without ever knowing that I really got fucked. 

 

I appreciate your honesty and we are still expanding our staff ( - if you are over 18 and have a clean history feel free to apply). Some of you have already noticed the increased speed of tickets being processed and it will get even better very soon, when we have new members.

 

As for your argument about people being steamrolled: it's rare but it does happen. I personally banned a new trader who was buying very expensive hats out of the blue a few weeks ago, only to learn that he indeed was legit. His permaban was ultimately reverted to a warning ban for buying a dirty hat though. So if you do think you have been unjustly banned, there is always the appeal to clear up any misconceptions we might have and to present your case.

[λngelღмander]

I appreciate your honesty and we are still expanding our staff ( - if you are over 18 and have clean history feel free to apply). Some of you have already noticed the increased speed of tickets being processed and it will get even better very soon, when we have new members.

 

As for our argument about people being steamrolled: it's rare but it does happen. I personally banned a new trader who was buying very expensive hats out of the blue a few weeks ago, only to learn that he indeed was legit. His permaban was ultimately reverted to a warning ban for buying a dirty hat though. So if you do think you have been unjustly banned, there is always the appeal to clear up any misconceptions we might have and to present your case.

Well, I honestly do feel like I could have been unbanned from my first ban, mainly because I really was telling the truth, that I didnt know I was trading scammed hats,

 

but then I made an alt.

 

That alone I think sealed the deal. You can tell me, but I already know that evading my first ban erased any chances of my getting unbanned. I gave my original ban two weeks before switching my stuff over to the alt and trading with it. If my appeal had been responded to before then, maybe, just maybe, I would still be trading today.

[sirploko]

You present a strong argument. However, Outpost's monopolization of the unusual trading 'scene' is perhaps not something you should flaunt; as many people resent it as relish it.

Moreover, speaking on behalf of said trading behemoth is a tad presumptuous. Though you may have a better understanding than most, to be sure, it is still not quite your place to speak so openly without counsel.

 

Not including the full evidence within a ban reason is a gross perversion of justice, but I digress.

 

Just a warning, sir. Your words open you up to a fair amount of flame. I would brace yourself and not allow things to snowball, if I were you; such would not reflect well on a man of your position. With that I leave this in what I trust are capable hands.

 

Thanks, I can handle the flaming that might result of it. As for speaking about OP: I'm just presenting the facts and my opinion, I don't claim to speak on behalf of the site or other staff members.

 

Oh! And we do put any facts that resulted in the ban into the reasons, we just don't reveal information that is not for the public eye.

[>Sneaks]

We need to stop the scams at their SOURCE.

That's the problem, you can't. If you've seen Death Note, think of it like this: L kept Light under surveillance because he thought Light was responsible for all the murders of the criminals. However, Light managed to find a proxy to keep killing criminals in his place and lower his suspicion.

Likewise, a scammer could pass his items through a moderate list of alts to mask the fact that the scam happened recently but still try to rip others off himself. 

 

Also, I don't mean to be rude, but the whole "stop the scams at their SOURCE." idea is quite dumb. It's just like gun control extremists saying "ban/destroy all weapons" and might even be equivocal to genocide. How do you propose we stop the scams? Bans work but only after the crime is committed.  Are we going to employ a system of tyranny and assume that everybody has the potential to be a scammer and force them to do some sort of appeal or have some sort of waiting period before they can trade?

 

Let's face it, this is a very volatile subject with a very complex solution.

[λngelღмander]

That's the problem, you can't. If you've seen Death Note, think of it like this: L kept Light under surveillance because he thought Light was responsible for all the murders of the criminals. However, Light managed to find a proxy to keep killing criminals in his place and lower his suspicion.

Likewise, a scammer could pass his items through a moderate list of alts to mask the fact that the scam happened recently but still try to rip others off himself. 

 

Also, I don't mean to be rude, but the whole "stop the scams at their SOURCE." idea is quite dumb. It's just like gun control extremists saying "ban/destroy all weapons" and might even be equivocal to genocide. How do you propose we stop the scams? Bans work but only after the crime is committed.  Are we going to employ a system of tyranny and assume that everybody has the potential to be a scammer and force them to do some sort of appeal or have some sort of waiting period before they can trade?

 

Let's face it, this is a very volatile subject with a very complex solution.

You must not have read the original post. I said to educate people about scams. I don't even want to begin to try to comprehend the thoughts that went through your head as you wrote that post. All I've said is that we should make sure we educate new traders about scams to the best of our abilities and hope for the best.

 

 

Doing so will also help stop people like me and cranwell (if he's innocent like I doubt he is) from getting banned for trading unwittingly with the scammers who we could possibly have stopped from scamming by drying up their source.

[A Delicious Cashew]

I realize that almost everyone who gets scammed is a fucking idiot and will never learn, but we could easily cut down on the number of scammed by teaching them about scamming, much like sex ed for young teens. We won't eradicate scamming, but perhaps we can cut down on it. It's a more humane approach. Rather than being law enforcement, we should be teachers. The best law enforcement is preventative enforcement, and that's just what I'm talking about

I've seen this happen over status updates and random threads that have popped up on the forums. If people are curious if a trade is legitimate or about various types of scams, they will ask or research for themselves. The problem is that 95% of the people who get scammed never ask about whether a trade is legitimate and end up getting scammed. There isn't a possible way to educate the majority of the new traders about all the types of scams, other than to hope Valve makes something to help them.

 

I appreciate your honesty and we are still expanding our staff ( - if you are over 18 and have clean history feel free to apply). Some of you have already noticed the increased speed of tickets being processed and it will get even better very soon, when we have new members.

 

As for our argument about people being steamrolled: it's rare but it does happen. I personally banned a new trader who was buying very expensive hats out of the blue a few weeks ago, only to learn that he indeed was legit. His permaban was ultimately reverted to a warning ban for buying a dirty hat though. So if you do think you have been unjustly banned, there is always the appeal to clear up any misconceptions we might have and to present your case.

I have to give you guys credit, you guys have definitely have gotten faster at processing tickets. My ticket that was handled by you for a fake c/o was done in only 12 minutes. I would have been fine if it had been done in a day or two, if not longer.

 

And yes, that's the benefit of appeals. Everyone makes mistakes, including admins/mods. It's easy to overlook something, but that can be pointed out in appeal.  

[Shadowslayer]

I think we should bring back Trade servers. Its a easier and more simpler way of trading. Scammer comes into server and gets a tag that says [scammer] (insert clever name).

Trades servers are expensive but if someone needs help they can get assistance fast and easily learn how to deal with scammers. Also If a user is banned from any trading website they obviously need a place to trade right? Trade servers eliminate the "I need to see if i can trust you situation" where a guy makes a multi-chat and ends up taking something from the victim. Remember that most people don't use 3rd party websites and that trade servers can instantly ban/kick people for attempting or making poor choices.

[>Sneaks]

I think we should bring back Trade servers. Its a easier and more simpler way of trading. Scammer comes into server and gets a tag that says [scammer] (insert clever name).

Trades servers are expensive but if someone needs help they can get assistance fast and easily learn how to deal with scammers. Also If a user is banned from any trading website they obviously need a place to trade right? Trade servers eliminate the "I need to see if i can trust you situation" where a guy makes a multi-chat and ends up taking something from the victim. Remember that most people don't use 3rd party websites and that trade servers can instantly ban/kick people for attempting or making poor choices.

Well, I use PPM servers for unusual trading.Friendly community. I've heard Mann Co Trading is also good for unsuals trades. Both also have all trade servers for non unusual trades.