Let's replace our archaic ideas about scam prevention

[λngelღмander]

Obviously, the war on scamming in the tf2 community is a losing war. We never had a chance. No matter what we do, there will always be people falling for scams, and there will always be people willing to buy scammed hats regardless of the consequences. Because of this. some of our most beloved community members are being banned.

 

It's a lot like the body's immune system. It attacks the infection, sure, but plenty of healthy cells die during the fight.

 

Banning the people trading scammed hats is mutually destructive. But there is a much simpler way to combat it. The conventional approach to eliminating scamming is to ban anyone trading with scammers, and trading scammed hats. That does not work. Scammers can switch accounts with ease and get plenty of use out of them before they're caught. And its worth it, to them. We can't make scamming non-profitable because it just is profitable.

 

Instead of banning every poor soul who trades with a scammer, which happens accidentally much more than you'd think (like my case), we should try to teach newcomers all of the scamming methods and show them how to avoid scammers. It is a much simpler and less destructive task to inform new traders about existing scams BEFORE they become targeted by them than trying to deal with the scammed hats after the user has been scammed. 

 

We can have outpost and bazaar have a message displayed for every newcomer, where they must read a page detailing each scam, to help prevent the hats from ever becoming scammed at all.

 

 

I realize that almost everyone who gets scammed is a fucking idiot and will never learn, but we could easily cut down on the number of scammed by teaching them about scamming, much like sex ed for young teens. We won't eradicate scamming, but perhaps we can cut down on it. It's a more humane approach. Rather than being law enforcement, we should be teachers. The best law enforcement is preventative enforcement, and that's just what I'm talking about

 

The current system we have is like the war on drugs. Because it's so profitable, the dealers won't stop for anything. But if we could create a disease that only struck pot plants, and sprayed the entire country down with the stuff periodically, then we could drive prices so high that no one would buy pot. This is just an example.

 

 

 

 

TL;DR: The current system for dealing with scammers is destructive and leads only to innocent people being banned, we should try to prevent scams from taking place instead of punishing people trading the scammed hats after the fact.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for reading.

[Grimes]

How do you propose we teach every 10 year old who buys csgo or plays tf2 about scamming?

[λngelღмander]

How do you propose we teach every 10 year old who buys csgo or plays tf2 about scamming?

Not sure myself. Why don't we discuss it? I did mention that we could have a message displayed to new users of each trading website. 

 

 

Maybe we could have a banner displayed on screen at all times on each website. As I said, there are always going to be people getting scammed, but an educated community will be far less affected by it than a defenseless one.

[Kevin the Chicken God]

so blame the victims and let the criminals go free?

doesnt seem like a good idea if you ask me

there has to be policing to some degree, teaching would be a nice addition, but completely dismantling the current system would prove more harm than good

[Grimes]

Not sure myself. Why don't we discuss it? I did mention that we could have a message displayed to new users of each trading website. 

 

 

Maybe we could have a banner displayed on screen at all times on each website. As I said, there are always going to be people getting scammed, but an educated community will be far less affected by it than a defenseless one.

 

Not every trader/player uses these third party websites. The fact is, the only people who use these 3rd party websites are the people who are smart enough to not get scammed anyway (in most cases) The people who don't use these websites are far more likely to be scammed then anyone else.

[♥Prof. Sugarcube♥]

This is the only thing I didn't TL;DR.

[Senpai Absol~]

For once

I read the whole thing of a thread

you are quite a thinker eh?

[Senpai Absol~]

Would be cool if valve Helped out..

[λngelღмander]

so blame the victims and let the criminals go free?

doesnt seem like a good idea if you ask me

there has to be policing to some degree, teaching would be a nice addition, but completely dismantling the current system would prove more harm than good

If you paid attention, I never said blame the victim. I said EDUCATE THE VICTIM, SO THE VICTIM DOES NOT MAKE A MISTAKE. Thanks for reading.

 

Also, I never said to dismantle the current system. We need to continue to ban scammers, and obvious scammer fences who deal in NOTHING BUT scammed hats, but for now, we should work on educating the populace.

[Kevin the Chicken God]

If you paid attention, I never said blame the victim. I said EDUCATE THE VICTIM, SO THE VICTIM DOES NOT MAKE A MISTAKE. Thanks for reading.

 

Also, I never said to dismantle the current system. We need to continue to ban scammers, and obvious scammer fences who deal in NOTHING BUT scammed hats, but for now, we should work on educating the populace.

you are blaming the victim for not being smart enough to know that they're going to be scammed

"I realize that almost everyone who gets scammed is a fucking idiot and will never learn" sounds like victim blaming to me

 

"Rather than being law enforcement, we should be teachers." gave me the vibe that you wanted to completely tear down SR and start from scratch, so sorry about that

[Grimes]

If you paid attention, I never said blame the victim. I said EDUCATE THE VICTIM, SO THE VICTIM DOES NOT MAKE A MISTAKE. Thanks for reading.

 

Also, I never said to dismantle the current system. We need to continue to ban scammers, and obvious scammer fences who deal in NOTHING BUT scammed hats, but for now, we should work on educating the populace.

 

 

Not every trader/player uses these third party websites. The fact is, the only people who use these 3rd party websites are the people who are smart enough to not get scammed anyway (in most cases) The people who don't use these websites are far more likely to be scammed then anyone else.

[Teeird]

How do you propose we teach every 10 year old who buys csgo or plays tf2 about scamming?

My thoughts exactly. Good luck.

[The Radiated Banana]

The idea of it sounds good, but actually putting it into practise, that would be difficult

[λngelღмander]

The idea of it sounds good, but actually putting it into practise, that would be difficult

My thoughts exactly.

 

 

I figured making a thread about it was the first step toward getting something done. I just want people to hear me out. Maybe if sneeza were to make an appearance... We can dream, cant we?

[krawtch]

There is a war against scamming?

 

I don't click on bullshit links.

I don't accept shitty trades from garbage people.

Stop using autpost. Completely.

 

WAR FUCKING WON.

[LaughingLollipop]

how bout we hop off cranwell's dick and admit hes just another scumbag profiteering off of knowingly purchasing hats from scammers?

[λngelღмander]

how bout we hop off cranwell's dick and admit hes just another scumbag profiteering off of knowingly purchasing hats from scammers?

I made this thread to address a broad problem, not to suck cranwell off. I never even mentioned him. Let's stay professional here.

[LaughingLollipop]

http://www.tf2outpost.com/user/437330

 

ain't that a gem

 

you're a bonafide scammer launderer yourself.

 

Nice private bp btw.

[λngelღмander]

http://www.tf2outpost.com/user/437330

 

ain't that a gem

 

you're a bonafide scammer launderer yourself.

 

Nice private bp btw.

Look, I never intended to trade with scammers, just got nabbed for doing it without warning.

 

I appreciate it greatly when people make assumptions about me before they bother to know me.

 

Because of my outpost ban, I quit trading. I now come here to talk about trading even though I don't do it anymore. I made this thread to prevent more people from being steamrolled by outpost just like me. Thanks for the benefit of the doubt, jackass.

 

Also, my backpack is private because this is my new account: http://steamcommunity.com/id/iSparkle/

[LaughingLollipop]

Benefit of the doubt does not extend to include 5 documented instances of high value trades with scammer alts. That ain't no coincidence.

 

And then like the classy and honest trader you SURELY ARE, you made an alt http://www.tf2outpost.com/user/712313 to try and continue your little laundering scheme.

 

I greatly enjoy listening to the completely unbiased assault you are launching upon the status quo that bans people just like you for exploiting the community.

 

But I'm gonna have to move on to bigger and better things now, have fun defending your brother in laundering.

[λngelღмander]

Benefit of the doubt does not extend to include 5 documented instances of high value trades with scammer alts. That ain't no coincidence.

 

I greatly enjoy listening to the completely unbiased assault you are launching upon the status quo that bans people just like you for exploiting the community.

 

But I'm gonna have to move on to bigger and better things now, have fun defending your brother in laundering.

I didn't make this thread to defend cranwell. 

 

The five cited cases werent anything especially crazy, or unexpected. It's not like I even thought about trading with scammers. I just came home one day and holy fucking shit I was banned from outpost and they had all this dirt on me I didn't even fucking know existed.

I'm also not launching an assault on outpost in this thread, just trying to suggest ways to improve the community. 

 

I literally made a thread to help prevent scamming, and you accuse me of defending my brethren. What a gem indeed.

[Gent♥]

http://www.tf2outpost.com/user/437330

 

ain't that a gem

 

you're a bonafide scammer launderer yourself.

 

Nice private bp btw.

 

Though the Ad Hominem Tu Quoque card may be an easy one to play in this instance, it's at least worth hearing out the argument, no?

Though, Angel, citing 'like my case' may not be wise, as you committed the offence multiple times. I, to, would have moved to have had you banned.

 

Nonetheless.

Under the current system, the punishment does not fit the crime. This is to be conceded. Knowingly trading with a scammer should not, in every instance, result in a complete ban

I liken the problem to that of the drug trade.

 

Those who sell the drugs (in our anology, the scammers themselves and in turn, the fencers), the punishments are suitably severe.

 

However, since the number of people caught in possession of drugs is a reasonably high one, the punishment for first time possession is considerably milder, when compared to the punishment for trading into a scammed unusual.

 

Criminal re-offence rates, of any kind, are around 40%. 40% of those who buy a scammed unusual are likely to attempt to buy more. These are the people we need to be targeting. The others, though knowingly trading with a scammer is indeed a vile thing to do, just as drugs are, many people because persuaded by delusions that will not be fulfilled. To insta-ban this 60%, who will likely not commit the offence again regardless, is indeed ludicrous.

 

That is not to say I agree with you entirely. Our current ideas are not 'archaic', merely... 'over-zealous'. Scamming as a phenomenon erupted rather quickly, and the community's response was vastly defensive. I do not find such a response unreasonable under the circumstances, just that it needs to be altered now the situation has been better accessed.

[λngelღмander]

Though the Ad Hominem Tu Quoque card may be an easy one to play in this instance, it's at least worth hearing out the argument, no?

Though, Angel, citing 'like my case' may not be wise, as you committed the offence multiple times. I, too, would have moved to have had you banned.

 

Nonetheless.

Under the current system, the punishment does not fit the crime. This is to be conceded. Knowingly trading with a scammer should not, in every instance, result in a complete ban

I liken the problem to that of the drug trade.

 

Those who sell the drugs (in our anology, the scammers themselves and in turn, the fencers), the punishments are suitably severe.

 

However, since the number of people caught in possession of drugs is a reasonably high one, the punishment for first time possession is considerably milder, when compared to the punishment for trading into a scammed unusual.

 

Criminal re-offence rates, of any kind, are around 40%. 40% of those who buy a scammed unusual are likely to attempt to buy more. These are the people we need to be targeting. The others, though knowingly trading with a scammer is indeed a vile thing to do, just as drugs are, many people because persuaded by delusions that will not be fulfilled. To insta-ban this 60%, who will likely not commit the offence again regardless, is indeed ludicrous.

 

That is not to say I agree with you entirely. Our current ideas are not 'archaic', merely... 'over-zealous'. Scamming as a phenomenon erupted rather quickly, and the community's response was vastly defensive. I do not find such a response unreasonable under the circumstances, just that it needs to be altered now the situation has been better accessed.

I agree, people who scam once are likely to do it again. I'm not asking to be unbanned anymore, that time is over, I quit. I just wish I had been given just one warning, one one week ban or something, I could have lived with. I would have straightened out.

 

It wasn't that I was seeking them out, its that they sought me. Scammers will look for a naive trader with a lot of pure. I always had a lot of pure, and for a pretty good deal I would dish out my pure. I never thought to check people out. "It could never happen to me, right?"

[M.G.B.]

I honestly believe there should be more lenience in cases where the person traded with a scammer unknowingly even if it was multiple times. What may be an "obvious" scammer/alt to a high tier trader may not be so noticeable to the average guy that just wants to trade hats and get nice things

[sirploko]

It's not like I even thought about trading with scammers. I just came home one day and holy fucking shit I was banned from outpost and they had all this dirt on me I didn't even fucking know existed.

 

I'm not gonna reveal confidential information from your appeal, but you should stop lying about "unknowingly" trading with scammers.