JayTuut Posted March 15 Author Share Posted March 15 On 3/14/2024 at 8:44 PM, AwesomeSause said: true cause i spent some minutes trying to read the rules and i still have no clue whats going on, thank goodness the suggestion team has mercy cause i posted some stupid ones Exactly, it doesn't even need to be a quiz, this topic was just a discussion on what could be done to improve it, before it got sidetracked by Semper/Bentry for just saying "You can't start a discussion on change because u suck at suggestions!" You could even have, before your first suggestion, a link to the rules and a tutorial on how to upvote, downvote, what makes a good suggestion, what makes a bad one. Not even a course just a very simple text/image guide. The rules are annoying to try find by going back onto the forums and finding polars 10 year old post. They should all be clear, formatted well and easy to read and understand, with examples for each if the person would like to go that far, though purely optional. 43 minutes ago, AwesomeSause said: Holy moly go easy we're not all glued to our screens making constant price suggestions Oh I thought that was mandatory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AwesomeSause Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 50 minutes ago, JayTuut said: Exactly, it doesn't even need to be a quiz, this topic was just a discussion on what could be done to improve it, before it got sidetracked by Semper/Bentry for just saying "You can't start a discussion on change because u suck at suggestions!" You could even have, before your first suggestion, a link to the rules and a tutorial on how to upvote, downvote, what makes a good suggestion, what makes a bad one. Not even a course just a very simple text/image guide. The rules are annoying to try find by going back onto the forums and finding polars 10 year old post. They should all be clear, formatted well and easy to read and understand, with examples for each if the person would like to go that far, though purely optional. Oh I thought that was mandatory Yeah idk how people churn suggestions out, probably just some script at this point because how the hell they'd WANT to do that is beyond me. If I learned how to make proper suggestions I'd probably just do one when I'm bored or like 4 times a month. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Foamy the Fearsome Posted March 15 Administrators Share Posted March 15 Please keep the comments here related to the original topic; there's no need to point fingers or joust about who makes better suggestions. You are free to bring up additional suggestions that are related to the main topic, but you can do so without provoking one another. As for my view on the topic: Having basic knowledge about suggesting is useful, but I think it would be difficult to create something that covers enough bases of suggesting, without demotivating inexperienced people to make them. The point of the suggestion system is that anyone can provide data or propose a price change. This sometimes gets abused by those that wish to change/set prices with no data supplied, or people that simply wish to be funny by trolling the system. However, the amount of time this happens is limited, and the time it takes for us to deal with these suggestions is not significant compared to the total effort it takes to handle serious suggestions. We might not see everything immediately, and on occasion, a suggestion that could or should have been closed on its first day will hit the backlog, but the majority of suggestions ends up there because the cases are uncertain. I agree that in many cases it is not necessary to wait much longer than a month, and I've been contemplating a change to ensure we make our decisions after suggestions hit a month, but oftentimes I see situations that would be exempt from that, that take me off officializing something like that (also related to the fact we wish to give suggestors time to fix their stuff). There are a few additional concerns with regards to implementing such a system. Aside from the fact that it would become a chore for anyone that wishes to suggest (which might put them off), the test would need to vary between item type. Non-unusual suggestions work differently when compared to unusual ones, and within unusual ones, there are generally different ways in which they'll be suggested. Doing suggestions on (applied) war paints, collector's items, or anything of higher value that is not an unusual, will generally also have its own way of producing it. Since all suggestions use the same prompt to create them, it'd require an introduction to all types of suggesting, just to not risk someone wanting to update an unusual, and having to learn how you use gladiator.tf to suggest regular cosmetics (as an example). Making it too complex or broad (but less specific) will put people off even more. Another concern is that it might hinder/demotivate people that simply wish to share their sale. Some people buy or sell an item and want to make a suggestion on it. Even if their formatting is poor and they miss sales/structure etc., they still brought the sale to our attention. It's not unusual for us to see proper suggestions on such items (either by the OP of the suggestion after our proposed corrections, or by other suggestors willing to take over). Having such a system in place might scare such users off, especially if they only want to price their hats and have no further interest in suggestions or the knowledge required to make them. All in all, while I don't think something like this is necessarily a bad idea, I think given the circumstances I'dpersonally rather spend a little more time informing new suggestors as they make suggestions that simply show their sale. If we do not have the time, we can forward them to suggestion discussion to ask if people wish to assist. RussellSproutz, Heidecker, SpotlightR and 1 other 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincentius Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 35 minutes ago, Foamy the Fearsome said: Having basic knowledge about suggesting is useful, but I think it would be difficult to create something that covers enough bases of suggesting, without demotivating inexperienced people to make them Would it be possible to have the current rules for unusual suggesting to be formatted into one post as to help prevent confusion of new users reading the whole rule forum for it? A good percentage of the current forum for it is outdated and tells users about irrelevant outdated information as its now been near 10 years of information and updates. Even if its a copy paste of what's current, it would help prevent some possible confusion for new suggestors reading the rules. ajdislikesyournamingpolicy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Explocivo808 Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 Apologies if if this reply does not look as nice as the others might, I am not very tech-savvy with how the forums work. 20 hours ago, JayTuut said: Right now, we only get people being dicks to each other to new people to suggest, you really think that's better? This makes other users already not want to suggestion again. Examples: https://backpack.tf/suggestion/65cf444172e258212f086db6 ~ !wen https://backpack.tf/suggestion/658780100853daff160eff1b ~ RedEye, a keen user wanting to learn but getting told by another suggestor he is "deficient in something" isn't very helpful. For starters, this point was covered later in my discussion and, like said there, I am well aware there is individuals such as that and we cannot do much about it other than report their behaviors. If you want to combat this, I suggested as well to help out individuals as anyone who has experienced should if you want to see change happening, and by this I mean actually helping and not just providing history links without providing any guidance of what to do next. Maybe something like explaining what they missed and how they can fix it or even going out of your way and providing all the information and just letting them know to resuggest if it seems applicable like some other individuals do. Regardless, you missed the whole point I was trying to get through with that statement, of which being that suggesting is too complicated to fit in a simple quiz with multiple-choice questions because it is. If you really did want to cover the whole aspect of what suggestions are, like the different types of items there is and how to price said items with all its rounding rules, you will end up creating a very extensive and long quiz which plays on the later part that the quiz might deter people from suggesting. 20 hours ago, JayTuut said: This is a pretty interesting point, considering there are 1180 suggestions open right now. They don't "sometimes have too many suggestions", they have had for quite a while, at least 6 months. We wouldn't have "no suggestions at all" considering we get many suggestions per day, I mean I would say at least 80% of suggestions are made by the same handful of people. "Having a quiz would certainly repel some people from suggesting because of laziness" is.... interesting as well. Why would you want a lazy person to determine prices in a tf2 economy? If they can't do a simple quiz then they shouldn't be pricing. If someone won't take a quiz to price their "rare" item as you say, then they wouldn't have interest in pricing it anyway. Plus there are plenty of times where a user will just post their sale on the forums or discord for a user to price it if they're really unwilling, I don't think the quiz is a detterent.. Firstly, yes, I am aware that moderators have pages upon pages of suggestions already but this is not something bad in a sense. As said in my discussion, it is better to have suggestions hanging than not have any given it keeps everyone busy with new things to do. In addition, this is a community effort where we put our own time to supply suggestions and have them accepted so if anyone has a problem with having their suggestions open for a while then they are just being petty and not being understanding about it. In which case, if people really deem having a backlog as problem, why do they not help out with it? And no, helping out the backlog does not mean just adding simple comments with just a history and that's it. By helping I mean actually going out of your way and providing the new sales fully and letting the original suggestor know what to do from there. And before you throw my statement against me. Yes, I am also doing something of my own behind the scenes to help out moderators in the near future because I care about suggesting. Secondly, that is not my main focus of what I was trying to get at, I merely suggested that was one of the many reasons why a quiz would repel individuals from making suggestions which is why I said "for others reasons" afterwards. This should be an open community where anyone can and should be accepted, people can change their attitude towards the process of suggesting if they get into the nitty gritty of things. Lastly, you missed the whole point that I was trying to get at here as well. I covered how we should handle people in my previous paragraph, that is to be open to them as people can change. And the forums and discord server are two separate things from the main page so not everyone will be aware of their existence unless they go looking for them directly. My main point in the last few lines of that paragraph was to point out that if we have a quiz deterring people multiple items could go without price updates or without a price at all, something that we should care about as a community as it is what we strive for in the first place by suggesting. 20 hours ago, JayTuut said: I highly disagree with most that is said here, even in my example of Pokemon Go, after the quiz you still have people who make fake pokestops, change names/etc, grief, etc. It doesn't stop it but at least filters out a lot of it (esp being lvl 40). I disagree highly with it being gatekeeping, we manage a literal economy, so having someone do a basic quiz is "too far"? We have this for Pokemon Go, for editing Lyrics (genius and the one instagram uses), you have to take courses before you can edit lyrics that will go on an IG story, much less detrimental than the tf2 economy and real life value. Even for going for a minimum wage job you need to pass a bunch of quiz's. The rules on suggesting aren't made very clear for someone who isn't on the forums, sure there are guides here but you can literally just go make a suggestion never seeing the guides or rules. And finally, here you are comparing things that go through without anyone double-checking if they are correct until they have already gone through. When suggesting anything you are doing that, suggesting a price for an item and nothing else. When you do that it does not go through instantly but instead, it is put up in a limbo state where highly qualified individuals will decide eventually if the suggestion is deemed right and will go from there. Having new individuals who have no idea how everything might work is not harmful, their suggested price does not affect anyone because if anything is done wrong in the suggestion itself it will not go through. I do agree, some rules are kept well hidden in the big wall of text that is the suggesting guides and, yes, this should probably be refined to make it simpler and much more understanding for everyone. But having a quiz in the broader picture will not change any of that as it is something that is rather useless and will not fulfill the larger role that a guide can with how extensive of a task it is. I am not sure how this problem can be fixed either so I suppose I do not have the biggest say on this but I just wanted to point out what you are missing when suggesting such a change to occur. Having no change occur is good, however. This opens the door for us as a community to come closer together as a whole. We should take responsibility for teaching the newer users how suggesting works as we once were in their shoes and probably did learn from others on our way to where we are today, and like said previously I believe this is the best way to tackle this meanwhile as experience suggestors are the best source for current suggestion related things. ajdislikesyournamingpolicy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FishtheFish Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 12 hours ago, JayTuut said: I've been suggesting for a decade, 10 years, and I still get hate from the community I really don't think your attitude is helping your mindset either. Nobody's out to get you; at most, Bentry suggested that if you practice what you preach, you'll find you will improve naturally. If anything, people helped you. Bentry made the mini that you should have done on the rotation. Victim mentality and excuses will never help you improve. Only hard work can do that. SpotlightR, Vincentius and Heidecker 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Littlepudintater Posted March 15 Share Posted March 15 real shit why do you guys even bother suggesting so hard, suggestion drama gets deep wtf ajdislikesyournamingpolicy and Gaia 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayTuut Posted March 16 Author Share Posted March 16 8 hours ago, FishtheFish said: I really don't think your attitude is helping your mindset either. Nobody's out to get you; at most, Bentry suggested that if you practice what you preach, you'll find you will improve naturally. If anything, people helped you. Bentry made the mini that you should have done on the rotation. Victim mentality and excuses will never help you improve. Only hard work can do that. I find it funny that this is an attitude and you seriously I think people are out to get me, its merely sarcasm. I understand not reading the tone through text but the emoji is there to support it (Also ironic coming from Fish but I don't need to go there lol) 6 hours ago, Littlepudintater said: real shit why do you guys even bother suggesting so hard, suggestion drama gets deep wtf fr fr, who is the better slave xD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STEVE Posted March 16 Share Posted March 16 locked at request Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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