Explosion-chan Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 -snip- I just wonder about the moderation of status updates. You once took a vote on how we wanted status updates to be moderated. We pretty much said we wanted close to no moderation in status updates (besides the important stuff like NSFW content). Even after we voted that way, the status updates were still more closely moderated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polar Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 I just wonder about the moderation of status updates. You once took a vote on how we wanted status updates to be moderated. We pretty much said we wanted close to no moderation in status updates (besides the important stuff like NSFW content). Even after we voted that way, the status updates were still more closely moderated. The question was about spam. Status updates are as spammy as ever. Insults, instigating other users, NSFW content etc. was never up for discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Explosion-chan Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 The question was about spam. Status updates are as spammy as ever. Insults, instigating other users, NSFW content etc. was never up for discussion. I've seen people warned for status update spam before. I would have to ask around to find out exactly who it was, but someone told me before they got warned for being spammy in updates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Teeny Tiny Cat Posted September 21, 2015 Administrators Share Posted September 21, 2015 I don't really understand threads like this to be honest. I think it's great/admirable that the mods are putting in time to explain to people where their decision-making comes from (even if some don't take anything in) but they don't have to, they don't owe you that time. The mods are selected by the site owner and impose the rules he wants them to, if you don't like those rules then use a different forum or make your own so you can decide what's ok and what's not. They're not accountable to you (this applies particularly in the case of puddingkip who is constantly questioned despite the admins repeatedly saying they stand by his judgment), you're accountable to them. There are some rules I disagree on here, and I've mentioned some in passing before, but I don't press even rules I strongly disagree with because it's their choice. I might not do things as they do, but it's not my job to moderate this site so I simply follow the rules as they'd like us to. It's not that difficult, really. I've had minor arguments with users of my own group along these lines in the past, and the bottom line is that no-one is forcing you to use this site. Everybody knows what the rules are, doesn't matter if you like them or not, if you choose to ignore them then it's your problem if you're held accountable for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♠Derpeh♤ Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 I think it's great/admirable that the mods are putting in time to explain to people where their decision-making comes from (even if some don't take anything in) but they don't have to, they don't owe you that time. The mods are selected by the site owner and impose the rules he wants them to, if you don't like those rules then use a different forum or make your own so you can decide what's ok and what's not. They're not accountable to you (this applies particularly in the case of puddingkip who is constantly questioned despite the admins repeatedly saying they stand by his judgment), you're accountable to them. I think the main problem here is the lack of transparency with the tf2 trading in general, when ever a user is banned they at the very least want it to be justified and when the ban reason is a very vague comment from the mod they will start to "dig" around. This eventually leads to them comparing previous cases and then question why they were punished differently...etc. I believe bp.tf does a good job at this when compared to other communities (eg steamrep refusing to showing proper proof when marking you...etc) however when it comes to rules/punishments we arnt very strict which is a blessing and in this case problematic. Tbh I think it's great that we as a community are allowed to question the mods and actually get a reply although the delivery this thread isnt exactly the way I would go about it. I prefer a community where we can see what the mods are doing, question when we see something out of place compared to the others where mods essentially do whatever they want disregarding everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Teeny Tiny Cat Posted September 21, 2015 Administrators Share Posted September 21, 2015 I think the main problem here is the lack of transparency with the tf2 trading in general, when ever a user is banned they at the very least want it to be justified and when the ban reason is a very vague comment from the mod they will start to "dig" around. This eventually leads to them comparing previous cases and then question why they were punished differently...etc. I believe bp.tf does a good job at this when compared to other communities (eg steamrep refusing to showing proper proof when marking you...etc) however when it comes to rules/punishments we arnt very strict which is a blessing and in this case problematic. Tbh I think it's great that we as a community are allowed to question the mods and actually get a reply although the delivery this thread isnt exactly the way I would go about it. I prefer a community where we can see what the mods are doing, question when we see something out of place compared to the others where mods essentially do whatever they want disregarding everyone. A user can pm a mod quite easily for information, the problem here is people who have no idea the context for any bans, how many times a user has been banned previously, etc, comparing two bans as if they're equivalent and then railing against the mods because it looks unfair from the outside. I don't disagree that it's a good thing that the mods address this stuff. I said in my post that I think it's great/admirable that they do. But people rant on as if there is zero transparency despite this, and act as if they're owed more which is... puzzling. The mods are already devoting more time than they have to, and more time than I would. They can't win short of just doing whatever every complaining user says (in which case why even have mods.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Дебра Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 First, I'm actually going to address Courtney's report of Penek. I handled the report. I closed it. The report was "Penek is a literal trash of the human race." I'm going to come out and say that Penek IS a piece of trash. A scumbag. (Insert whatever variation of this you want to here). He is a criminal who swindles people out of their hard earned money. Would you be mad if someone called a convicted criminal any of these things? How can you compare Penek to someone like Venom? I'm not going to write out a 100 page manifesto about everything that should or shouldn't be said in the forums and every exception to every rule. Use common sense. So you are saying that someone banned from communities for scamming is allowed to be insulting whereas someone banned from communities for sharking can't be insulted... I really can't see the difference in all honesty. Some people don't like cheaters so does that put me under the same category or? Shouldn't Penek be treated as a human just like everyone else? Especially seeing Venom must be treated with respect regardless of what bans he has? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polar Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 So you are saying that someone banned from communities for scamming is allowed to be insulting whereas someone banned from communities for sharking can't be insulted... I really can't see the difference in all honesty. Some people don't like cheaters so does that put me under the same category or? Shouldn't Penek be treated as a human just like everyone else? Especially seeing Venom must be treated with respect regardless of what bans he has? I have very different opinions about "sharking" than I do about scamming. As I have stated before, imo sharking is intentionally lying, deceiving, coercing another user the same way a con-man might. There's nothing wrong with offering someone what they want and agreeing to a trade that both parties are happy with. Until I see that Venom is a con-man, I am giving him the benefit of the doubt. Regardless of whether you agree with this assessment or not, Venom returned the item in question and according to many here has "become a better person," choosing to help unboxers rather swindle them. Penek is a thief. There's no polite way to put it. If he were to return scammed items to their owners and apologize, I might re-consider my stance on him. I am always first in line to give people a second chance that deserve it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Дебра Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 I have very different opinions about "sharking" than I do about scamming. As I have stated before, imo sharking is intentionally lying, deceiving, coercing another user the same way a con-man might. There's nothing wrong with offering someone what they want and agreeing to a trade that both parties are happy with. Until I see that Venom is a con-man, I am giving him the benefit of the doubt. Regardless of whether you agree with this assessment or not, Venom returned the item in question and according to many here has "become a better person," choosing to help unboxers rather swindle them. Penek is a thief. There's no polite way to put it. If he were to return scammed items to their owners and apologize, I might re-consider my stance on him. I am always first in line to give people a second chance that deserve it. I couldn't care less who you consider to be a conman or not, they are still human and deserve more than being called "literal trash of the human race.". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Teeny Tiny Cat Posted September 21, 2015 Administrators Share Posted September 21, 2015 I think part of the problem with some of the rules is that they're based on what the admins consider to be offensive rather than what the majority consider to be offensive. I've mentioned this before as it relates to the words used in the rules - polar doesn't find them offensive, but other people do. In this case, the issue would be who it is or is not ok to insult, with polar obviously having a different opinion on that than some users. Whether the mods want to take that on board or not is completely their choice, they have every right not to, but it might be helpful to acknowledge that they are making that decision to prioritise their judgment over that of the userbase. That is why I say "Everybody knows what the rules are, doesn't matter if you like them or not, if you choose to ignore them then it's your problem if you're held accountable for that." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CourtneyWendysCommercials Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 after my first perma, polar stated that puddingkip should have consulted before throwing a perma at me. Then what does he do? permas me again without consulting. Causing drama. There should be some type of punishment for countless errs, not only by puddingkip, but any mod that repeatedly screws up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Teeny Tiny Cat Posted September 21, 2015 Administrators Share Posted September 21, 2015 after my first perma, polar stated that puddingkip should have consulted before throwing a perma at me. Then what does he do? permas me again without consulting. Causing drama. There should be some type of punishment for countless errs, not only by puddingkip, but any mod that repeatedly screws up. How do you know there isn't? Learning how to be a really good manager of people is a process, no-one magically makes the correct call everytime. You have been able to successfully appeal your bans so the system is working ok for you, is it not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polar Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 I think part of the problem with some of the rules is that they're based on what the admins consider to be offensive rather than what the majority consider to be offensive. I've mentioned this before as it relates to the words used in the rules - polar doesn't find them offensive, but other people do. In this case, the issue would be who it is or is not ok to insult, with polar obviously having a different opinion on that than some users. Whether the mods want to take that on board or not is completely their choice, they have every right not to, but it might be helpful to acknowledge that they are making that decision to prioritise their judgment over that of the userbase. That is why I say "Everybody knows what the rules are, doesn't matter if you like them or not, if you choose to ignore them then it's your problem if you're held accountable for that." There is moderator-moderator difference as well. We acknowledge that. Anyone is free to appeal their ban on the main site. Appeals are always looked at by 3-4 mods and decisions on them come via committee decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Teeny Tiny Cat Posted September 21, 2015 Administrators Share Posted September 21, 2015 There is moderator-moderator difference as well. We acknowledge that. Anyone is free to appeal their ban on the main site. Appeals are always looked at by 3-4 mods and decisions on them come via committee decision. I'm sure you guys probably do this anyway, but on the off chance you don't (or just so that you can make it clear to users that you do), it might be good to have that kind of committee discussion on rules that are frequently raised as issues by users to ensure that mods are applying them in a similar manner across the board. Removing inconsistency as much as possible would probably cut the complaining a reasonable amount (though not entirely, obviously.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CourtneyWendysCommercials Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 How do you know there isn't? Learning how to be a really good manager of people is a process, no-one magically makes the correct call everytime. You have been able to successfully appeal your bans so the system is working ok for you, is it not? i appealed both, but it came with a load of drama and hatred towards me all because a moderator didn't use his "power" appropriately. I understand people make mistakes, but a mile-long list is a little much considering he's been a moderator for a while now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Teeny Tiny Cat Posted September 21, 2015 Administrators Share Posted September 21, 2015 i appealed both, but it came with a load of drama and hatred towards me all because a moderator didn't use his "power" appropriately. I understand people make mistakes, but a mile-long list is a little much considering he's been a moderator for a while now. Edit: I'm not gonna sit here and discuss the appropriateness of your ban or appeal because I don't know all the details. You didn't agree with it, you appealed, you got unbanned. Seems like a working system to me. If you have genuine concerns about puddingkip then in my opinion the best thing to do (particularly if you want to avoid drama as you say) would be to message polar privately about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CourtneyWendysCommercials Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 The question was about spam. Status updates are as spammy as ever. Insults, instigating other users, NSFW content etc. was never up for discussion. but when people instigate and insult me, i get banned for reporting it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin the Chicken God Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 but when people instigate and insult me, i get banned for reporting it. your report called penek "a literal trash of the human race". If your other reports are even remotely similar, I can't imagine you're just free to insult other users because the report can only be viewed by mods I'm going to come out and say that Penek IS a piece of trash. A scumbag. (Insert whatever variation of this you want to here). rude people are upset with puddingkip because he does a good job moderating and is too vague in his reports. It's pretty hard to get banned (or even warned), the mods here are really lenient with what they let slide and what they don't. The issue arises from clarity. I'm not sure if the warning point page only shows "5 points for abusive behavior", but I feel like if there could be a note section where mods could put like "don't insult other users again using the terms you did, this is your first warning of three." it would be really helpful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CourtneyWendysCommercials Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 your report called penek "a literal trash of the human race". If your other reports are even remotely similar, I can't imagine you're just free to insult other users because the report can only be viewed by mods what Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFFIRMATIVE Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 Courtney but when people instigate and insult me, i get banned for reporting it. This is coming from an outside perspective that has no bias towards anyone, maybe you need one since you either see hatred from those who are against you, or compassion from those that are your friends. You always have this low opinion of yourself that you are never wanted here or people constantly hate on you for various reason. Have you wondered that the reason of this ongoing hate is not coming from those who hate you, but you yourself ? Imagine that a constant tower of hatred is being built against you, people keep creating blueprints for the tower to make it larger yet you are the one providing the materials for it. You don't respond well to hate, everytime someone gives a negative opinion towards you, your response is always with the same coin, another negative opinion. Instead of hoping that you extinguish this large fire by putting them in their place with your same negative responses, you are in fact adding even more wood to an already large fire that fires back at you. I'm not saying ignore this drama, i'm saying that you should take the higher ground. If you are not doing this for the sake of attention, since you are doing a fine job on that part, then stop throwing dirt on every situation that you are involved with. This is based ONLY on your personality on the forums. For all i know, you're probably a saint in real life and this digital social platform is your way of letting out your emotions. The point is not that you should agree with what i said, is that you need to be more aware of your quirks in order to have a more open point of view so that you won't fall for people that wants to find out the worst of you. Polar I have very different opinions about "sharking" than I do about scamming. As I have stated before, imo sharking is intentionally lying, deceiving, coercing another user the same way a con-man might. Is it an opinion that reflect the rule in which it states that sharking is a higher offense that scamming? Or is it an opinion based your personal moral bias towards sharking? If its the latter, then be ready to defend your moral judgement since people WILL come to question the aspects of your morality with their own ones because they are not bound by any written rules. Users view offences with a more passive perspective because they know it will be handled by someone suited by it, moderators have a different perspective on an offence because the responsibility falls on them to act out against it. That is the line that separates the users and moderators. Dabaers The worst part is Venom finds satisfaction in this, knowing that hes still has a grip on our community What the flying shit? Is Venom a Harry Potter villain or something? He Who We Cannot Speak His Name? Aren't you bringing problems without context? without the history of said person? Have you considered that the punishment of a person is a higher caliber than usual because he has a history of bad behaviour instead of a personal bias by other moderators? This really seemed that it could've been handled without any drama if you would've had more patience and wait for polar's response in your PM in which i believe he explained your complaint very well. Summary: Offences against that Venom guy is more noticeable because it is handled more frequent since he is the center of attention. You people keep bringing up insults against him and it makes the moderators follow a pattern of punishment that gives the illusion of a separate bias which makes it distinguishable from the regular punishment against other users. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin the Chicken God Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 what First, I'm actually going to address Courtney's report of Penek. I handled the report. I closed it. The report was "Penek is a literal trash of the human race." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CourtneyWendysCommercials Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 no, i reported another user for saying what polar quoted. I myself didn't say that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin the Chicken God Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 no, i reported another user for saying what polar quoted. I myself didn't say that. oh, I got confused by polar's phrasing, I thought you made a report which contents were just "penek is a literal piece of human trash" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CourtneyWendysCommercials Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 oh, I got confused by polar's phrasing, I thought you made a report which contents were just "penek is a literal piece of human trash" no, CrafterofGenius posted that, and i reported it to see if he would have gotten the same punishment as Fenrir/Mikusch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jams Posted September 21, 2015 Share Posted September 21, 2015 In the end I still stand by my thinking that mods need to be more in-tune with the community. If you spend like literally a few days watching how everyone posts are responds you can see when they're joking. To be a better moderation team they really need to give more verbal warnings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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