Very Major issue with moderation of this forum

[Fenrir]

Look we've all made the puddingkip jokes here and there, but this is serious. There is something very wrong with how we are being moderating, and when questions are fielded, all we get is vague response that aren't really true at all, or no response.

 

I've noticed an extreme use of force as moderating here. For instance, just today, Vakume Kleener was PERMABANNED for backseat moderating. Yes, I repeat, someone was permabanned for backseat moderating. In other words they have been permanently removed from the community, never to return because they backseat moderated. How does that even happen? I dont know about you guys, but that seems like "excessive use of force." I can definitely draw some parallels between that and the current police vs black people going on these days. But this ban is just the tip of the iceberg in what is an issue I feel needs to be addressed. A lot of people know that Mikusch was perma banned for insulting Venom, and that's been brewing quite a storm. I've already made my thoughts known on why that is utterly ridiculous in the Newsletter thread, but I will paste my response here for those who have not seen it:

 

I think this whole Venom thing has to be addressed, and not just Venom, but banned users as a whole. You should definitely not be banned for insulting another user... when that is not a user at all, since they are BANNED from the community. I was also banned for insulting Venom, which really begs the question; we ban people because they need to be removed from the community, and yet Venom still has a giant stranglehold on the community. Why are the mods serving the wishes to someone who has photoshopped photos of his appeals to defame polar, and done a whole lot of other things? Why are we protecting a BANNED user. This would never happen on any other forum, you should not be banned for insulting someone who has been intentionally removed from the community.

 

I'm also going to PM this to polar to bring his attention to this.

 

My whole point is that Venom is no longer a user here at the forums. He was banned. So it is absolutely outrageous that someone was permabanned for insulting someone who is not a part of our forums. Its the same thing as banning someone for insulting a celebrity.

 

 

I have, in fact, PMed polar, which has since been read and ignored. I dont know if he hasnt had time to address it or if he is purposely ignoring it, your guess is as good as mine. Look, Venom is a person and all that and that's great; lets try not to hurt people's feelings, I understand that. But, if we can get banned for insulting a banned user than I'm pretty sure half the forums should be banned for insulting Heavylord or Box. In fact, Courtney has brought this to the attention of puddingkip, which he addressed absolutely unprofessionally and did not even listen. Here is the exchange of Courtney and Puddingkip:

 

I'd like to note that I reported a user for insulting penek in the same fashion Mikusch and Fenrir insulted venom, and they did not get banned. Why is Venom a special case?

That report was not even handled at the time of you posting this...
And venom is not a special case. Nobody is.

It wouldn't be the first post insulting a banned user, but yet bans are never issued for insulting banned users other than Venom. Every mod has seen box, penek, valley, heavy lord, etc get insulted.

This is complete and utter bullshit. Yes other people than venom get insulted. Other people get warned/banned as well
Now please, back to topic

 

I dont know if anyone sees whats wrong with this: for one, nobody has ever been banned for insulting a non user of the forums that is not Venom, so THAT is complete and utter bullshit. Second of all, puddingkip gives a stock "back to topic please" with absolutely zero regard. WE ARE IN THE NEWSLETTER THREAD ... In the newsletter thread you discuss current events and what is put in the newsletter. This just shows puddingkip gave no regard to the complaints whatsoever, just dismissing it with his stock "back to topic." 

 

Look, this is not a personal attack on the mods. Im just looking for some clarification as to why this is happening, and as a whole whether this should be happening. I know I'm not the only one that thinks this is ridiculous, that a banned user has such a strong hold on the community. and I would definitely like to talk about this in the open.  And it's not just the Venom incident; there is a lot of bans like these in the past month. Like Courtney's ban was pretty unjustified, and I've heard from her that puddingkip basically said that he was waiting for an oppurtunity to perma her, which is so ridiculous and it would never happen on another forum. In any case, I'd like to hear your guys' opinions. Thank you, 

 

Fenrir

 

Sources:

http://forums.backpack.tf/index.php?/statuses/user/15797-hazza/?status_id=296248

 http://forums.backpack.tf/index.php?/statuses/user/9546-crafterofgenius/?status_id=295871

[fluffyy]

id just be patient, polar always eventually responds to pms in my experience, and its always helpful 

[Fenrir]

id just be patient, polar always eventually responds to pms in my experience, and its always helpful 

 

I was hoping this thread would warrant a comment from him and other mods. 

[Explosion-chan]

I agree that there is a bit too much moderation being done. I don't feel there is a bias though, most of the mods do a good job of separating feelings from moderation. Maybe lessen moderation in status updates especially. When asked, we said we wanted the status updates to be nearly moderation free like the great below

[fluffyy]

I was hoping this thread would warrant a comment from him and other mods. 

i thought the same thing before but i found a pm was much easier and efficient

[Fenrir]

i thought the same thing before but i found a pm was much easier and efficient

 

Thing is, I dont want just polar's eye on this. I would like a response from other moderator's to see what they think, and also just the community as a whole.

[λngelღмander]

Venom does not have any influence over the forums. He can no longer voice his opinion here, he can't vote on polls or post on threads, everything he wants to say here has to be said through a proxy, and that is dangerous for said proxy as that is in violation of the rules.

 

The biggest problem with Venom is that for some reason, you and a few select other people have a difficult time ignoring him, and insult him on the forums. I don't see what is so hard about simply turning the other way and giving him a wide berth.

 

The problem does not lie in site moderation, but with you and other people who continue to accost him in status updates and posts. Venom has on multiple occasions said that he browses the forums very regularly, so obviously he will see (and report) anything said about him. If there have been attacks on other banned users or people in general, they may have gone unreported and thusly ignored by the mods. Harassing other users and posting libel about anyone is frowned upon on the backpack.tf forums, and the illusion of corruption is more than likely just that some things go unreported, and the mods don't see everything that happens here.

 

 

If everyone, all at once, stopped talking about Venom in a negative light, no one would ever be banned for it again. It's really that simple. I don't think there is any problem with moderation.

 

 

And for the record, the newsletter is for discussing relevant issues, suggesting things to be added to/changed about the newsletter, and reporting news. It's not for having discussions about site moderation or about Venom. The issue about Venom is one of opinion, for the most part. I report on bans that are incurred due to things said about him, but I don't report on perceived forum moderation injustice. One other time I recall there was an off topic conversation about something similar, and more than ten posts were removed. 

[Punishment_Fatal]

Venom does not have any influence over the forums. He can no longer voice his opinion here, he can't vote on polls or post on threads, everything he wants to say here has to be said through a proxy, and that is dangerous for said proxy as that is in violation of the rules.

 

The biggest problem with Venom is that for some reason, you and a few select other people have a difficult time ignoring him, and insult him on the forums. I genuinely can't understand what is so hard about simply turning the other way and giving him a wide berth.

 

The problem does not lie in site moderation, but with you and other people who continue to accost him in status updates and posts. Venom has on multiple occasions said that he browses the forums very regularly, so obviously he will see (and report) anything said about him. If there have been attacks on other banned users or people in general, they may have gone unreported and thusly ignored by the mods. Harassing other users and posting libel about anyone is frowned upon on the backpack.tf forums, and the illusion of corruption is more than likely just that some things go unreported, and the mods don't see everything that happens here.

 

 

If everyone, all at once, stopped talking about Venom in a negative light, no one would ever be banned for it again. It's really that simple. I don't think there is any problem with moderation.

To add to this, Venom should be no more than just a banned member that happened because of previous actions. Actively talking about him continuously in a negative light only encourages people to start making unnecessary and rude comments. Everyone has their opinion about other people, sure, but try and keep it to yourself or at the very least with a small group of people privately. 

 

I know what I said does not apply to everyone, but I still felt the need to say so.

[Fenrir]

I'd like to steer this thread away from being solely about Venom, more about the concept of what has happened with Venom. 

 

I understand that we should not talk about him and then nobody will get banned; I understand that. However, the fact that there is a punishment for doing such a thing is ridiculous. And just as a whole, all the issues I've listed are really strange for a forum.

[Mr. Bucket]

A forumer's status, notoriety, and whether or not they are banned isn't relevant in the grand scheme of things. If you insult a user, you're breaking the rules, simple as that. 

 

(2) Don't insult or harass other users. It doesn't matter if the user is a marked scammer or community admin or even an entire community. It doesn't matter if YOU think it's funny. Think about anything you write from the perspective of a stranger or the person you are harassing. If your comments are offensive to others, don't put it down. This goes for any kind of slander as well - things like xx person is a sharker. Harassing other users without proof is called SLANDER.

 

You can find the full rules here: http://forums.backpack.tf/index.php?/topic/31871-forum-rules/

 

No one receives special treatment because they're banned/not banned/a scammer/etc. The rules are plain and simple: don't insult other users. That's not so hard, is it? If you see a user getting insulted, report it. It doesn't matter who is getting insulted, it won't affect the action taken. 

 

And if you want to stop hearing about Venom all the time, stop bringing him up. If he doesn't get any attention, he'll soon just fade away. 

[Fenrir]

A forumer's status, notoriety, and whether or not they are banned isn't relevant in the grand scheme of things. If you insult a user, you're breaking the rules, simple as that. 

 

 

 

You can find the full rules here: http://forums.backpack.tf/index.php?/topic/31871-forum-rules/

 

No one receives special treatment because they're banned/not banned/a scammer/etc. The rules are plain and simple: don't insult other users. That's not so hard, is it? If you see a user getting insulted, report it. It doesn't matter who is getting insulted, it won't affect the action taken. 

 

And if you want to stop hearing about Venom all the time, stop bringing him up. If he doesn't get any attention, he'll soon just fade away. 

 

But isn't Venom no longer a user? He is banned and removed, and he's not a user of the forums anymore. User means someone who actively uses something. Venom is not actively using the forums anymore since he's banned.

 

And it's very hard to ignore when all his proxies post things for him and his friends bring him up.

[Mr. Bucket]

But isn't Venom no longer a user? He is banned and removed, and he's not a user of the forums anymore. User means someone who actively uses something. Venom is not actively using the forums anymore since he's banned.

Sure, you could say that. He's still a person though. It doesn't matter if he's banned or not, you can't just insult someone based on the fact they're banned. I'll go back to what I said earlier, if you don't give the class clown attention, they'll stop fooling around. Same goes for this guy. If everyone stopped talking about him, he'll soon be forgotten like many forumers before him. 

[Tobiased]

But isn't Venom no longer a user? He is banned and removed, and he's not a user of the forums anymore. User means someone who actively uses something. Venom is not actively using the forums anymore since he's banned.

 

And it's very hard to ignore when all his proxies post things for him and his friends bring him up.

 

venom is still a person. and like Bucket and Angelmander stated, it's against the rules to insult another user.

Polar set up the rules based on what should be common sense. so don't think insulting a banned user does not count.

 

Everyone knows venom actively reads the forums so of course insulting him will get you in trouble.

 

also i'm positive the perma'd users have done repeated offenses to deserve it. Courtney managed to appeal and so can they

 

also ninja'd by bucket

[Fenrir]

Sure, you could say that. He's still a person though. It doesn't matter if he's banned or not, you can't just insult someone based on the fact they're banned. I'll go back to what I said earlier, if you don't give the class clown attention, they'll stop fooling around. Same goes for this guy. If everyone stopped talking about him, he'll soon be forgotten like many forumers before him. 

 

For some reason I don't believe Venom will ever fade away, with proxies posting things for him and his friends always bringing it up. The worst part is Venom finds satisfaction in this, knowing that hes still has a grip on our community. In any case, I don't believe Mikusch's bannings were justified still, even though at this point it is a matter of opinion and not logic since our views differ as I believe someone who is banned cannot be considered a user. Yes, they are considered a person, and I respect that, but I do not believe they fall under the umbrella of user any longer.

 

Bucket, would you like to comment on anything else, like Courtney's banning (which has since been appealed, thank you polar), Vakume's banning (which he was a fairly regular user), and puddingkip's demeanor? Thank you, you have been very forthcoming and descriptive

[Hexlicious]

Just don't talk crap about him or others and you'll be fine.

[3.50]

. For instance, just today, Vakume Kleener was PERMABANNED for backseat moderating.  [...] I can definitely draw some parallels between that and the current police vs black people going on these days.

With all due respect, you, erm.... might do well to acquire some perspective.

[Mr. Bucket]

For some reason I don't believe Venom will ever fade away, with proxies posting things for him and his friends always bringing it up. The worst part is Venom finds satisfaction in this, knowing that hes still has a grip on our community. In any case, I don't believe Mikusch's bannings were justified still, even though at this point it is a matter of opinion and not logic since our views differ as I believe someone who is banned cannot be considered a user. Yes, they are considered a person, and I respect that, but I do not believe they fall under the umbrella of user any longer.

 

Bucket, would you like to comment on anything else, like Courtney's banning (which has since been appealed, thank you polar), Vakume's banning (which he was a fairly regular user), and puddingkip's demeanor? Thank you, you have been very forthcoming and descriptive

 

If a moderator requests something of you, it means you should follow through on it. If you're not doing what the moderator asks you to do, you should be subject to punishment. Moderators use their own judgment when dealing with issues- there's no way around that. Since it's not black and white, as long as you're careful with what you say and do, you'll be fine. Although rare, you can find people with hundreds of posts and no warning points. Why? Because they are cautious when they speak, and they don't post anything that could potentially grant themselves a ban. 

 

So do I agree with puddingkip's actions? Yes, I support his actions. Would I do the same if I was in his spot? Not necessarily, but possibly. Moderating is subjective, but the staff here supports our fellow staff members decisions. Will some actions get overturned? In certain cases, sure, but for the most part we stick with the original decision. Puddingkip is just doing his job whether some of you like it or not. You may think he's too strict, but its up to the moderator's discretion. So the next time you post something think to yourself: "Is there any possibility that any moderator could punish me for this action?" If the answer is yes, don't post it. 

[Fenrir]

 

With all due respect, you, erm.... might do well to acquire some perspective.

 

Liking your own post...?

 

Anyways, I said I could draw some parallels, in the whole excessive use of force thing, not that they are the same thing or even on the same playing field, just that both have what I called excessive use of force.

[Дебра]

I'm not saying puddingkip was wrong to give warnings or short bans for insulting venom, a perma ban was a bit excessive tbh but it's still a important rule. What I disagree with is just how banhappy he is.

The whole perma ban for backseat moderating is just bullshit unless the user recieved plenty (at least 3) clear warnings that what he did was wrong, and by clear I mean straight up saying in the warning DON'T PUT X ON THREADS Y not DON'T BACKSEAT MODERATE because not everyone even knows what these terms mean. Sometimes just a verbal warning via PM is more appropriate than a ban.

 

Also this:

 

 

5 warning points for shitposting... In the great below... And to add to the professionalism he hasn't even linked the thread - he just put it as profile. The post was mocking how someone got steamrep marked for receiving a gift from a scammer or giving a scammer a gift (i think, i cant really remember) which is hardly worthy of 5 warning points tbh.

[Mike Hawk]

Copypastaing from my status 

 

I mean I kind of agree. Someone shouldn't be banned for bashing on someone who isn't on the forums. Like if I trash talked some pleb i traded with on outpost, does that mean I'm on risk of getting warning points? No, they don't affiliate with the forum so it shouldn't make a difference.

 

Venom isn't apart of the forums. Was he? Yeah, but he's not anymore. I see people bashing on people all the time who aren't part of the forum, yet they aren't punished for it because it wouldn't make sense to punish them. 

[3.50]

 

 

 

Liking your own post...?

Failing to like your own posts is a sign of low self-esteem, m80. If YOU don't like what you have to say, how can you expect anyone else to?

[Hazza]

Failing to like your own posts is a sign of low self-esteem, m80. If YOU don't like what you have to say, how can you expect anyone else to?

I don't mean to derail, but;

No.

Liking your own post shows you have a huge ego and makes you look like a bit of an idiot; you'll notice only newer users do it because they don't really understand how the forum works.

[♠Derpeh♤]

Not that I agree with how some bans are handled by mods as I think just a simple verbal warning would have sufficed for most cases than to ban a user. However regardless of what the user (venom) has done it does not mean you can insult a user, also while you're complaining that you were punished for insulting them note that it isnt just you, it's a fairly large group of people bashing a user which then becomes borderline cyber bully/hate. The amount of times Ive seen people bringing in venom when he has nothing to do with a case which then derails the thread and leads to a large number of users bashing venom...

 

What I would like to know is why do you care enough about any person on the internet who does not effect your life, your gaming experience to insult them, take any chance to bash them and doing it enough times to actually warrant a warning/ban? They obviously dont care about you then why should you care about them so that you get punished while they get "enjoyment" from your demise?

 

Note: I dont care about venom nor am I his friend, I just find the amount of people who enjoy wasting their time stalking his every more and bashing him at every chance a hilarious way to spend their time on someone who doesnt care what you think.

[!каблам]

Only thing I don't like is puddingkip

He's too goddamn sensitive and trigger-happy to be a mod

What he sees as spam might be a helpful post, but no, here's another 2 week ban for you!

[polar]

I was out of town all weekend. I saw your PM, but I don't like to comment in haste while on mobile without understanding the full context of what you were trying to get at.

 

First, I'm actually going to address Courtney's report of Penek. I handled the report. I closed it. The report was "Penek is a literal trash of the human race." I'm going to come out and say that Penek IS a piece of trash. A scumbag. (Insert whatever variation of this you want to here). He is a criminal who swindles people out of their hard earned money. Would you be mad if someone called a convicted criminal any of these things? How can you compare Penek to someone like Venom? I'm not going to write out a 100 page manifesto about everything that should or shouldn't be said in the forums and every exception to every rule. Use common sense.

 

I've noticed an extreme use of force as moderating here. For instance, just today, Vakume Kleener was PERMABANNED for backseat moderating. Yes, I repeat, someone was permabanned for backseat moderating. In other words they have been permanently removed from the community, never to return because they backseat moderated. How does that even happen? I dont know about you guys, but that seems like "excessive use of force."

 

Second, Vakume Cleener may appeal his ban on the main site if he would like to, but I have never accepted a ban appeal from someone with more than TEN unique instances of warnings or bans (not warning points where you might get 5 points for one ban, but separate bans). Vakume had an impressive TWELVE DIFFERENT bans that span from insulting other users to spamming to backseat moderating. The permanent ban was NOT for backseat moderating. If you did the same thing you would not have gotten a permanent ban. He should have been permanently banned 2 bans ago for general spam and insulting others.

 

i thought the same thing before but i found a pm was much easier and efficient

 

I'm traveling a lot September-October, so I take a bit longer to respond. But PMing is definitely better if you want my input on anything. I wouldn't have seen this thread if Bucket hadn't quoted by rules page.

 

The biggest problem with Venom is that for some reason, you and a few select other people have a difficult time ignoring him, and insult him on the forums. I don't see what is so hard about simply turning the other way and giving him a wide berth.

 

The problem does not lie in site moderation, but with you and other people who continue to accost him in status updates and posts. Venom has on multiple occasions said that he browses the forums very regularly, so obviously he will see (and report) anything said about him.

 

So much this ^. And yes, we moderate what gets reported. If you don't report when people are clearly trying to insult someone, chances are a mod will never see it. Another thing to note is that we do take into consideration if something is clearly meant as a joke. However, there are tons of cases where you all get mad when you see something as a joke, but when the target of the insult is reporting it, there's really not much we can do but issue the warning.

 

 

5 warning points for shitposting... In the great below... And to add to the professionalism he hasn't even linked the thread - he just put it as profile.

 

I think what we're getting at here is that there is a problem in the clarity of the ban reasons. I'll admit that I find this as well and find it annoying when I have to deal with the backlash when puddingkip puts in a very vague ban reason without any reference or context. That's something that needs to be worked on. But if you look at the bans and warnings themselves, I have always stood by the vast majority of them.