Can Outpost mods do this?

[oozymrbunbun]

(Before anyone reads this, this is not really a tf2outpost-corrupt thread)

 

So as of yesterday, I was permanently banned on outpost for trading with scammers twice. The first time was my fault, the second time is well...idk.

So a month ago I traded with this user: http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198190859327, I bought around 300 keys from him for cash, he had a high steam level, good games + high hours, and had clean steamrep, not banned on outpost (on the contrary, he used it quite often), and he had a csgo cash rep thread (can't find it tho) and some backpack.tf cash rep. But fuck me right obvious scammer alt? Also he had about +10 rep on backpack.tf rep, now he has 8 because I think people are removing it: 

.

 

To be honest, if I cash traded someone who has marked I wouldn't be upset about this, but now I'm permanently banned, and only Rocketmania and Flexgod got banned. 

But this isn't even why I'm upset,

 

Looking at ret0rd's rep, LT. Scout cash traded with him as well, sirploko looked at ALL the reps, but only banned me, rocket, and flexgod which really rustles my jimmies. (Also I paid $15 for 90 days :c)

 

I love using TF2Outpost, I don't mean to offend/call out any of the staff of TF2Outpost if this is just a "small" mistake, but if Lt.Scout gets away because he's a mod or whatever reason, then i'm just done i guess.

 

EDIT: 

It appears that almost everyone's been banned except Amazing and the Mod, everyone who's been appealing got the same response concluding that "ret0rd" was an "obvious" scammer alt.

 

rip

 

EDIT:

The mod hasn't been banned, he just can't trade for 2 weeks, but it appears that everyone who traded with ret0rd is being punished because apparently 1 factor that is slightly suspicious over weighs the many factors that makes him look not obvious

 

gg outpost with ridiculously high expectations

[Дебра]

Outpost can do whatever they like.

This guy wasn't a obvious scammer alt no matter what they try to say, only 'obvious' thing was the fact he was pretty new.

[fluffyy]

he does not look like an obvious alt in my opinion. the join date is something i would personally brush over and not notice well enough to consider suspicious 

[oozymrbunbun]

Outpost can do whatever they like.

This guy wasn't a obvious scammer alt no matter what they try to say, only 'obvious' thing was the fact he was pretty new.

I guess it's their website but let's say sirploko knew what he was doing, then it would be unfair as hell if the mod got away with it. The mod wasn't the only one either, Amazing, skanshankar, etc.

[Litwick]

Gren and other people were banned as well, Frost was among them. There were some deleted +reps that still got nailed. 

[A Delicious Cashew]

I guess it's their website but let's say sirploko knew what he was doing, then it would be unfair as hell if the mod got away with it. The mod wasn't the only one either, Amazing, skanshankar, etc.

Everyone I checked except Amazing and the mod are not banned (yet). I would assume Outpost is dealing with it internally, as they have done in the past when situations like this have come up

 

Frankly I'm not sure if that counts as an obvious alt. Especially in your case, if I were you, I would think it's legitimate seeing how there were already ~10 +trusts, including a few from reputable people like frost and skaskanker.

 

This case really comes down to what is the definition of an obvious alt. This specific account had a semi new profile, but didn't have a terribly low number of hours in tf2/csgo. Toss in the level 40 profile, and he may not appear to be an obvious alt. The issue here is that he had high tier unusuals (http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/26116654), with a full knowledge of what he was doing. You don't get that sort of knowledge in under 2 months. From that fact, you can conclude he is an alt, or at least someone you should consider avoiding

[Дебра]

Everyone I checked except Amazing and the mod are not banned (yet). I would assume Outpost is dealing with it internally, as they have done in the past when situations like this have come up

 

Frankly I'm not sure if that counts as an obvious alt. Especially in your case, if I were you, I would think it's legitimate seeing how there were already ~10 +trusts, including a few from reputable people like frost and skaskanker.

 

This case really comes down to what is the definition of an obvious alt. This specific account had a semi new profile, but didn't have a terribly low number of hours in tf2/csgo. Toss in the level 40 profile, and he may not appear to be an obvious alt. The issue here is that he had high tier unusuals (http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/26116654), with a full knowledge of what he was doing. You don't get that sort of knowledge in under 2 months. From that fact, you can conclude he is an alt, or at least someone you should consider avoiding

 

he clearly got it from his csgo items though http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/26038939

whats to say he didnt have a friend who knows unusuals? You cant go around calling people scammers based solely around 'being too knowledgeable'.

[A Delicious Cashew]

he clearly got it from his csgo items though http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/26038939

whats to say he didnt have a friend who knows unusuals? You cant go around calling people scammers based solely around 'being too knowledgeable'.

Well then why does he have extremely valuable csgo items with a 2 month account? Sure you can have friends who help you, but from what I see, I would think it looks like he knows what he is doing.

 

Speaking of the csgo stuff, he got all of them from http://www.tf2outpost.com/user/909917. I don't know when this user was banned on outpost though

[Дебра]

Well then why does he have extremely valuable csgo items with a 2 month account? Sure you can have friends who help you, but from what I see, I would think it looks like he knows what he is doing.

 

Speaking of the csgo stuff, he got all of them from http://www.tf2outpost.com/user/909917. I don't know when this user was banned on outpost though

 

He could have unboxed a knife? Bought a knife on opskins? Maybe he just had money and decided to spend it on csgo items after enjoying it for a few weeks? It's all possible.

[fmca]

Again, have to agree with Debra on this. This makes Outpost not only look like over-zealous internet police, but also seemingly hypocritical given there's no transparency when one of their own mods ends up trading with a scammer alt that is supposedly super duper obvious.

 

If I was a mod, no one would have been banned for this. As it is it severely reduces the credibility of outpost's moderating team. I would say that we were all shafted because there's no competitors to them, but that's not exactly true either.

[oozymrbunbun]

Gren and other people were banned as well, Frost was among them. There were some deleted +reps that still got nailed. 

Ah I see, maybe I overreacted thinking that sirploko wasn't going to do that, but still I have no clue how the hell that was an obvious alt other than the somewhat-new steam.

 

EDITED TO PUT 4 CONSECUTIVE POSTS IN A SINGLE POST

 

I was pretty lazy to check out he had high tier unusuals, but I know people (not too well actually) that have knives in cs go and have fresh steam accounts, you bring out some really good points that I couldn't see. But if me, and other trusted cash traders and and outpost mod traded with him? No way in hell that was "obvious".

 

Actually, I asked my friend if he knew of ret0rd, and he said ret0rd did some REALLY high csgo/tf2 gambling, not sure which though.

 

The point was that the scammer alt was not super duper obvious, not marked on steamrep, not banned on outpost (the time we traded w/him), high level, high games + some cash rep. But let's see.

[oozymrbunbun]

Everyone I checked except Amazing and the mod are not banned (yet). I would assume Outpost is dealing with it internally, as they have done in the past when situations like this have come up

 

Frankly I'm not sure if that counts as an obvious alt. Especially in your case, if I were you, I would think it's legitimate seeing how there were already ~10 +trusts, including a few from reputable people like frost and skaskanker.

 

This case really comes down to what is the definition of an obvious alt. This specific account had a semi new profile, but didn't have a terribly low number of hours in tf2/csgo. Toss in the level 40 profile, and he may not appear to be an obvious alt. The issue here is that he had high tier unusuals (http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/26116654), with a full knowledge of what he was doing. You don't get that sort of knowledge in under 2 months. From that fact, you can conclude he is an alt, or at least someone you should consider avoiding

I was pretty lazy to check out he had high tier unusuals, but I know people (not too well actually) that have knives in cs go and have fresh steam accounts, you bring out some really good points that I couldn't see. But if me, and other trusted cash traders and and outpost mod traded with him? No way in hell that was "obvious".

[oozymrbunbun]

He could have unboxed a knife? Bought a knife on opskins? Maybe he just had money and decided to spend it on csgo items after enjoying it for a few weeks? It's all possible.

Actually, I asked my friend if he knew of ret0rd, and he said ret0rd did some REALLY high csgo/tf2 gambling, not sure which though.

[oozymrbunbun]

Again, have to agree with Debra on this. This makes Outpost not only look like over-zealous internet police, but also seemingly hypocritical given there's no transparency when one of their own mods ends up trading with a scammer alt that is supposedly super duper obvious.

 

If I was a mod, no one would have been banned for this. As it is it severely reduces the credibility of outpost's moderating team. I would say that we were all shafted because there's no competitors to them, but that's not exactly true either.

The point was that the scammer alt was not super duper obvious, not marked on steamrep, not banned on outpost (the time we traded w/him), high level, high games + some cash rep. But let's see.

[fmca]

The point was that the scammer alt was not super duper obvious, not marked on steamrep, not banned on outpost (the time we traded w/him), high level, high games + some cash rep. But let's see.

 

Yeah sure, but that's outpost's argument, that we was an "obvious alt". Except even their own moderator couldn't pick up on the fact that he was an obvious alt, so how bloody obvious could he be?

 

Plus all those other reasons as to why he wasn't obvious.

[oozymrbunbun]

UPDATE:

 

All of us who've been banned by trading with "ret0rd" have only gotten the same copy-pasta saying that "ret0rd" was an obvious alt because it was 9 weeks old, despite level 40, 32 games, hours on games, etc...

 

the mod hasn't been banned yet tho.

[Gren]

I'm happy to see that a lot of people here are also questioning whether this really constitutes as an obvious alt.  I'm in the same boat as TS.  Made a key buying thread for CSGO keys on OP.  Guy added me, I checked him out.  He was new, yes, but he had a decent amount of games, high steam level, decent amount of hours in-game (seriously, 200+ hours isn't enough?  That's 10 times longer than the average video game), OP trades open (and he had them open for a while, he didn't just open them the week before), he wasn't marked or banned anywhere and he had bp trust.  'Good enough' I thought.  Then more than a month later, I find out I'm banned because he's an "obvious scammer alt".  Yet all these people, including me and OP mod evidently, were apparently too stupid to realize this and even left trust on his profile.  When's the last time you've seen someone trade with an obvious alt or a scammer and then leave a trail of trust on their profile?   

 

The trust left is significant because it shows that all of us did not intentionally trade with a scammer.  Why else would we have left rep?  Seriously, if there was only one or two guys who were dumb enough to leave rep (and yes, I deleted my rep...boo shame on me), but all these other people traded with him, then yea, he was an obvious scammer alt.  But there were plenty of people who left trust for this guy.  We were all fooled and we didn't intentionally go against the rules of the community.  

 

I haven't written an appeal yet, I don't know if I will.  I fear it's probably pointless.  I do however feel the series of bans for trading with this guy is unjust.  Yes, he was the alt of a scammer, but he was damn good at hiding it.  At the very least, this is far into the grey zone where identifying an obvious alt is concerned, and as such, reasonable doubt should prevail. 

 

EDIT:  as others have pointed out, why is it so impossible that someone joins the game and immediately starts trading for more than scraps?  He may have been new to TF2, but he may not have been new to digital economies.  It's not like Steam is the only game in town.  I have to assume (for my own sanity) that not everyone who started playing this game 3 months ago is a 12 year old with an empty wallet.  Why is it so unreasonable to think that someone who graps the relatively simple concepts of this economy (seriously, for an intelligent, mature person all it takes is reading a few guides and perhaps having a mentor) can immediately jump into unusual trading?   If comparatively low in-game hours and a recent join date is what makes someone an obvious scammer alt, then couldn't websites like OP just build a logic that automatically denies log in from those accounts?  I.e. "log-in denied, come back when you have 500 hours in-game and a steam account at least 1 year old".  If I see someone who's adding me to trade, but he's never had an OP trade open ever, I get very suspicious.  But If I see someone like this guy, who looks at least sufficiently legit, and who's had multiple trades open for longer than a few weeks, it automatically makes me assume that because he's been on OP for this long and not yet banned, he's probably alright.  

[oozymrbunbun]

I'm happy to see that a lot of people here are also questioning whether this really constitutes as an obvious alt.  I'm in the same boat as TS.  Made a key buying thread for CSGO keys on OP.  Guy added me, I checked him out.  He was new, yes, but he had a decent amount of games, high steam level, decent amount of hours in-game (seriously, 200+ hours isn't enough?  That's 10 times longer than the average video game), OP trades open (and he had them open for a while, he didn't just open them the week before), he wasn't marked or banned anywhere and he had bp trust.  'Good enough' I thought.  Then more than a month later, I find out I'm banned because he's an "obvious scammer alt".  Yet all these people, including me and OP mod evidently, were apparently too stupid to realize this and even left trust on his profile.  When's the last time you've seen someone trade with an obvious alt or a scammer and then leave a trail of trust on their profile?   

 

The trust left is significant because it shows that all of us did not intentionally trade with a scammer.  Why else would we have left rep?  Seriously, if there was only one or two guys who were dumb enough to leave rep (and yes, I deleted my rep...boo shame on me), but all these other people traded with him, then yea, he was an obvious scammer alt.  But there were plenty of people who left trust for this guy.  We were all fooled and we didn't intentionally go against the rules of the community.  

 

I haven't written an appeal yet, I don't know if I will.  I fear it's probably pointless.  I do however feel the series of bans for trading with this guy is unjust.  Yes, he was the alt of a scammer, but he was damn good at hiding it.  At the very least, this is far into the grey zone where identifying an obvious alt is concerned, and as such, reasonable doubt should prevail. 

 

GL with the appeal, you'll most likely get the same BS response as all of us.

[Дебра]

With this guy being a obvious scammer alt I honestly want to know what isn't a scammer alt. Like where is the line between being new and being a scammer alt?

This could have just as easily been a new trader with helpful friends or a guy who bought into the CS:GO economy and just cashed out when he got bored.

 

Also what makes him any more obvious than this guy? http://backpack.tf/profiles/76561198062000229How come buying a clean burning TC from this guy is fine whereas trading a couple keys with a cash repped guy who happened to have a knife, some skins and knows that duped unusuals decrease value is a severe crime?

[Kuuko-San]

ugh.

[Gren]

GL with the appeal, you'll most likely get the same BS response as all of us.

 

As I wrote, I probably won't bother.  I have a really bitter taste in my mouth right now.  I've spent all this time building up rep (over 3 pages of cash rep on TF2-T), turned marked users away on multiple occasions when they approached me with a good deal for a hat I was really looking for, and have generally done my best to stay within the rules.  Then I get banned for trading with an "obvious scammer", who clearly wasn't so obvious, as he managed to fool plenty of people, including an OP mod.  Cherry on top alert, the OP mod is getting away with it.  Nah, I'm probably out.  

[Kuuko-San]

As I wrote, I probably won't bother.  I have a really bitter taste in my mouth right now.  I've spent all this time building up rep (over 3 pages of cash rep on TF2-T), turned marked users away on multiple occasions when they approached me with a good deal for a hat I was really looking for, and have generally done my best to stay within the rules.  Then I get banned for trading with an "obvious scammer", who clearly wasn't so obvious, as he managed to fool plenty of people, including an OP mod.  Cherry on top alert, the OP mod is getting away with it.  Nah, I'm probably out.  

 

Know how you feel. 

You're better than that. Don't quit something you've put this much effort into just because of this. 

You're a good dude, and a great trader. 

 

Man, fuck this community.

[zirune]

snip

 

Wait, wait, wait, wait. Hold the phone. HOLD THE DAMN PHONE. HOLD IT.

 

Are you trying to tell me... That having vague rules... Can lead to situations where people are unjustly punished...? ARE YOU SERIOUSLY TRYING TO SAY THAT?

 

Because of course that's correct. This shit is ENTIRELY Outpost's fault. Their rules state, and I quote:

 

 

No trading with scammer alts. We do not encourage our users trading with scammers, and you should be careful to not trade with obvious alternate accounts of scammers. Please check the user's Steam profile and SteamRep status before trading with them.

 

And that's everything there is about scammer alts. Seriously, what the hell's even the point of that rule? It's vague to the point of uselessness.

 

What do we check on their Steam profile? That it exists? Great, it does. That the person plays TF2? News flash: I don't play TF2. Seriously, maybe 97% of my total <500 hours on TF2 were spent idling a text box back when you could do that to get item drops. Literally all you have to do to get hours in TF2 is have TF2 open, and you can easily work the achievements to make it look like you're actually playing. Are they gonna ban me because I'm an obvious scammer alt for not playing the game? I mean, I'm clearly too rich for somebody who doesn't play TF2. Do we check if the person has lots of games? Great, so now in order to not be a scammer alt, they don't need just an account, but an account that has a few dozen free or worth-pennies games. Waow what a barrier of entry to not be a scammer alt!

 

And what if they bought or stole the account? There's literally no way to tell if that's happened.

 

They're obviously more to their rule than just that... But then why isn't that listed? That's like me telling you that the world's speed limit is 85... 85 what? Feet per second? Miles per hour? Light-years per millisecond? Does it apply to cars? Bikes? Pedestrians? Airplanes? Light? Does is apply underground? On the surface? In the sky? In outer space?

 

If you were to take that rule into court, it would be thrown out almost immediately. If only there were a court for TF2... If they want to seriously enforce their rules, they need to be very clear about them, otherwise there's no way to follow them.

 

Banning people who trade with banned people who traded with banned people who traded with scammers has to be the most asinine thing about the entire TF2 economy. This whole world police deal (Steamrep, Outpost, and everything else) is honestly just a massive shitshow. It's completely ridiculous to try and excise scammers from the community, because there's no way to do it. Accounts can't be linked to people like a SSN can, accounts have no inherent value, and there's no actual punishment (fines, jail time, etc.) that can be enforced. All they're managing to do is be 10 steps behind the scammers while catching innocent people in the crossfire. It's like the TF2 version of the drug war.

 

GL to you, Gren, and everybody else affected by this and all the other instances, past, present, and future, of this happening. Maybe somebody it'll end... Probably the day Steamrep goes away forever.

[BankingBot]

actually there is a way to excise scammers from the community, it's called valve account lockdown

[Дебра]

actually there is a way to excise scammers from the community, it's called valve account lockdown

 

Because making a new account is impossible...