The Confederate Flag in the wake of the South Carolina shooting

[dabaers]

http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/22/politics/confederate-flag-walmart-south-carolina/

 

Large corporations are refusing to sell it

 

South Carolina might also take down the flag in the Capitol. Thoughts?

[SirSkelly]

America has other problems to deal with besides flags

[Heated Bread]

Political correctness.  The flag is a symbol for the power and sovereignty of states (aka state's rights) vs the federal government, a symbol of individual freedom, and a symbol of rebellion.  Even people in northern states display it, and they're not racist.  It does not automatically equate to racism.  I'm sure there were plenty of people in the south who fought for the confederacy and didn't believe in slavery.  However, since some people find the flag offensive and can't stop focusing on racism all day every day (SJWs), to them it can and must only ever symbolize racism.  They don't seem to care about anything as long as they can latch onto any reason to prance around and act like moral crusaders.  They are perpetually seeking such a reason, and for now, it's this.  Soon it will be something else.

 

That said, the flag should go.  The way it is portrayed in media has always been one-sided, inflamatory and dishonest.  That's how news media works, because it's what gets viewers and readers, truth be damned.  By removing the target, you remove the dishonest misrepresentation that goes on.  Let the media figure out something else to exploit for attention.  Maybe they'll go back to talking shit about celebrities or digging up juicy scandals for a while.

[silencedotmid]

[Kevin the Chicken God]

it won't affect anything, except it might diminish the amount of people who are weirdly obsessed with it and are still upset about "the war of northern aggression"

[rico]

horseshit.

 

i haven't given a flaming fuck about social justice "warriors," and i still don't. they can stay offended for all i care; i personally find it incredible how a pattern of stars on a cross can induce such a traumatizing response. the flag is a part of American freedom, and it symbolizes an amalgamation of people who were not sufficiently represented in their vote in regards to their total electoral votes, not one of slavery support. if you kiddies read your gaytarded excuses for textbooks, they'll tell you the civil war was all about slavery so as to justify the shitstorm death toll of 1.1 million. and the north had slaves too.

 

suck it up.

[puddingkip]

It's a flag, who cares. It's not going to do anybody any harm. If governments could stop wasting time and money on crap like this the taxes could be lower. And governments could actually do things

[♛ AlphaOmega ♛]

Honestly at this point, i dont even know if it will do much anymore.

 

I say either way. Im more concerned over gun safety (notice i didnt say control, so piss off not gonna debate that)

[emp.Trashcan Man]

People need to do their research. I think it's ridiculous everyone is jumping on the ban wagon. The confederate flag does not stand for racism, it takes this shooting over everything else for people to freak the hell out? lol yeah ok.

[Ziphy]

horseshit.

 

i haven't given a flaming fuck about social justice "warriors," and i still don't. they can stay offended for all i care; i personally find it incredible how a pattern of stars on a cross can induce such a traumatizing response. the flag is a part of American freedom, and it symbolizes an amalgamation of people who were not sufficiently represented in their vote in regards to their total electoral votes, not one of slavery support. if you kiddies read your gaytarded excuses for textbooks, they'll tell you the civil war was all about slavery so as to justify the shitstorm death toll of 1.1 million. and the north had slaves too.

 

suck it up.

Donald Trump, is that you?

[Tats]

The Confederate Flag is, for many, a symbol of fight for freedom, and not the other way round. 

 

It is part of the Southern States cultural identity. If you ban this flag from this country, you deny some citizens their identity.

 

Anti-racism policies are part of the cultural marxism to uproot people from their identity.

[Professional Map Painter]

horseshit.

 

i haven't given a flaming fuck about social justice "warriors," and i still don't. they can stay offended for all i care; i personally find it incredible how a pattern of stars on a cross can induce such a traumatizing response. the flag is a part of American freedom, and it symbolizes an amalgamation of people who were not sufficiently represented in their vote in regards to their total electoral votes, not one of slavery support. if you kiddies read your gaytarded excuses for textbooks, they'll tell you the civil war was all about slavery so as to justify the shitstorm death toll of 1.1 million. and the north had slaves too.

 

suck it up.

I could just as easily criticise the American Revolution, or the War of 1812, but of course, it was all about freedom and liberty, not manifest destiny and other interests (parliamentary representation could have been obtained peacefully). And no, I don't support colonialism, America itself was pretty colonial after the revolution.

 

The Confederacy is a dead, illegitimate nation (and FYI the Emancipation Proclaimation was Lincoln's idea). I don't see anyone campaigning to reintroduce the Prussian/Yugoslavian flags. I wouldn't really care either way if the Confederate flag didn't have so many negative connotations - it's a symbol that was used by groups by the KKK. Do you see people flying Swastika flags at all (despite this being an Ancient Samnite/Indian symbol)?

 

Also;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Annexation

 

"The leadership of both major American political parties, the Democrats and the Whigs, strenuously objected to introducing Texas, a vast slave-holding region, into the volatile political climate of the pro- and anti-slavery sectional controversies in Congress."

 

tl,dr: don't ban it, just remember what it represents.

[t0night]

http://mic.com/articles/121082/here-s-the-racist-meaning-of-the-confederate-flag-in-the-words-of-the-man-who-designed-it

 

"As a people, we are fighting to maintain the heaven ordained supremacy of the white man over the inferior or colored race" - the fucking designer of the flag.

 

if you want to pretend that the confederacy, its flag, and the way people use this flag has nothing to do with racism: you're blind.

 

do you think it's a complete fucking co-incidence that it's one of the favoured symbols of neo-nazis, hate groups, white supremacists? its primary signification is as a symbol of hate or as a symbol that you don't give two shits about it being used for hate.

 

it's like; religions which had used the swastika for centuries before the 1930s renounced it because of what it became a symbol for. White conservative Americans won't let go of this fuckin flag regardless of what it actually comes to signify because of some bullshit about heritage, which is a heritage constructed on slavery, imperialism and racism that carries on to this day. Perhaps if you could bear to start moving on with an issue like the flag some other progress might happen too.

[t0night]

horseshit.

 

i haven't given a flaming fuck about social justice "warriors," and i still don't. they can stay offended for all i care; i personally find it incredible how a pattern of stars on a cross can induce such a traumatizing response. the flag is a part of American freedom, and it symbolizes an amalgamation of people who were not sufficiently represented in their vote in regards to their total electoral votes, not one of slavery support. if you kiddies read your gaytarded excuses for textbooks, they'll tell you the civil war was all about slavery so as to justify the shitstorm death toll of 1.1 million. and the north had slaves too.

 

suck it up.

hooooooooooooooly shit.

 

'if you kiddies read your gaytarded excuses for textbooks' this is 10/10 like are you sure you're not a 14 year old who got lost on his way to a 4chan thread venerating serial killers?

 

you're amazed that symbols have meaning?

 

watch, i'm gonna rewrite some of your points. "hurr it's just pretty stars on a cross... yeah and a swastika is just an arrangement of shapes, right? a cross in itself has no cultural or religious resonances at all. human pyschology and perception doesn't make symbols of things, that would be bizarre. it's a flag devoid of meaning, that's what flags are guys! they don't mean anything, why are you so mad? it's just an arrangement of images! they don't have any meaning, that's why they're hung as identifiers outside buildings and significant places. wait. uhh. huh. anyway.

 

also the civil war was bullshit and the south was right. also i'm 100% definitely a racist."

[Heated Bread]

When I see the confederate flag, I think "kill niggers".  That's the only thing it could ever make me think.  Ever.  It can't represent anything else.  Only racism.  If you see it differently, you're just wrong.

 

Great point.  10/10

 

would social justice again

 

Also, the alphabet was created and perpetuated by misogynists, so letters can only oppress women.  If you don't think so, you're just wrong.  Ban the alphabet.  Every letter is a symbol of oppression.

 

Totally not retarded.

 

And you know what?  We should ban shirts with buttons on the wrong side, because they were created to be buttoned by servants.  Anyone who wears such a shirt is wearing a symbol of privilege and is therefore a shitlord.

 

We must purge ourselves of these things in the name of social justice.

[Professional Map Painter]

When I see the confederate flag, I think "kill niggers".  That's the only thing it could ever make me think.  Ever.  It can't represent anything else.  Only racism.  If you see it differently, you're just wrong.

 

Great point.  10/10

 

would social justice again

 

Also, the alphabet was created and perpetuated by misogynists, so letters can only oppress women.  If you don't think so, you're just wrong.  Ban the alphabet.  Every letter is a symbol of oppression.

 

Totally not retarded.

Sumerian misogynists, that's a new one.

[Heated Bread]

Sumerian misogynists, that's a new one.

 

 

Well I was referring to the greeks, then later the romans, and eventually all of europe.  Was the greek alphabet rooted in sumeria?  Serious question.  IDK.  I'm pretty sure it wasn't.  Didn't they use cuneiform?

 

Well anyway, it doesn't matter.  They were slave owners and they oppressed women.  Therefore, we should ban cuneiform, greek letters, and all derivations, including the current alphabet.  If you disagree, you're just wrong.  Fuck freedom of speech, fuck freedom of expression.  Long live social justice.

[Explosion-chan]

As a person living in South Carolina, I see it as this: A flag is supposed to promote the unity of the people under it. This flag is not promoting that unity, therefore it should be removed, not because it's racist, but because people calling it racist have taken away any purpose it had.

[Professional Map Painter]

Well I was referring to the greeks, then later the romans, and eventually all of europe.  Was the greek alphabet rooted in sumeria?  Serious question.  IDK.  I'm pretty sure it wasn't.  Didn't they use cuneiform?

 

Well anyway, it doesn't matter.  They were slave owners and they oppressed women.  Therefore, we should ban cuneiform, greek letters, and all derivations, including the current alphabet.  If you disagree, you're just wrong.  Long live social justice.

iirc Sumerian Cuneiform was the original alphabet, followed by the Greco-Etruscan and Phoenician alphabets and then Latin. Whilst the Phoenicians burned children alive as sacrifice, the Greeks engaged in incest and the Romans were involved in slave trading, that's not what they are remembered for.

[Heated Bread]

iirc Sumerian Cuneiform was the original alphabet, followed by the Greco-Etruscan and Phoenician alphabets and then Latin. Whilst the Phoenicians burned children alive as sacrifice, the Greeks engaged in incest and the Romans were involved in slave trading, that's not what they are remembered for.

 

Don't try to white wash history.  Slavery was widespread in the ancient world, including ancient greece and sumeria.  Ban alphabets.  They symbolize oppression.  I'm right you're wrong.  By continuing to use words composed of letters created by slave owning cultures, we are perpetuating symbols of oppression and thereby oppression itself. 

 

Things only mean what I say they mean, and only represent what I say they represent, because social justice.  My one-dimensional portrayal of history is the only legitimate way to view things.  If you disagree, you are perpetuating oppression.  Why are you protecting oppression, you shitlord?

[Professional Map Painter]

Don't try to white wash history.  Slavery was widespread in the ancient world, including ancient greece and sumeria.  Ban alphabets.  They symbolize oppression.  I'm right you're wrong.  By continuing to use words composed of letters created by slave owning cultures, we are perpetuating symbols of oppression and thereby oppression itself. 

 

Things only mean what I say they mean, and only represent what I say they represent, because social justice.  Why are you protecting oppression, you shitlord?

I never said that the flag should be banned, just that it is, like the Swatsika, a symbol that has commonly been used to promote racist ideologies. As long as this is remembered, history won't repeat itself.

[Heated Bread]

I never said that the flag should be banned, just that it is, like the Swatsika, a symbol that has commonly been used to promote racist ideologies. As long as this is remembered, history won't repeat itself.

 

Alphabets have commonly been used to promote slavery from the earliest records and through history, from the code of hammurabi, to the bible, and throughout the later western world.  Indeed, people used it to compose entire writings dedicated to arguing for the preservation of slavery.  Therefore letters, writing, arguing, and history must be remembered as racist and oppressive.

 

Likewise, since the confederate flag was used to represent an alliance of states who had economies based on slave agriculture, which had nothing at all to do with geography and climate (and religion to a large extent), we should only remember their flag as a symbol of that slavery and never allow ourselves to view it or the confederacy in other ways.  While the north also had slavery, we should forget that, and forget that freeing them did not represent a crippling detriment to their economy, while it represented a collapse in the south.  We should also forget the numerous political grievances of the south leading up to, during, and after the war.  North = good, south = evil.

 

A one-dimensional view of history is important in order to preserve social justice.  We must disregard that non-racist people could display the flag for non-racist purposes, and we must censor it everywhere to protect people from being oppressed and offended.

 

Why stop there?  We should also ban the flag of the USA since it represents a history which is full of conquest, genocide, and oppression.  Also the Australian flag, for doing the same to aboriginals.  You know what?  All flags belonging to any country who has ever done anything remotely oppressive should also be banned.

 

PS - Don't take any of this personally.  I'm just satirizing. 

[A Cyan Stone in Mustard]

 

I don't find the flag to be racist, but when it comes down to why the Confederate States separated, it's mostly due to slavery. If people use the flag as a symbol of independence, I may as well us the Nazi Germany flag because "I support a united Europe" or something.

[Heated Bread]

Wow, cherry picked quotes from people who were racist and supported slavery in a time of racism and slavery.  That proves it then doesn't it?  The flag can never represent anything else.  Ever.  Period. 

 

Also I love how the video refers to it by one of it's popular names which just so happens to include the word "rebel".  I guess what they must have secretly meant by "rebel" is slavery.  Must be.

 

Yeah I know YOU didn't say the flag was about slavery. 

 

Slavery was of course one of the central issues debated before the war and it was used strategically during the war.  But we must remember that there were people in the north who were against the abolition of slavery and people who were racist, just as there were people in the south who were against slavery and even who helped to free slaves in the underground railroad.  Not everyone who wanted independence supported slavery, and not everyone who wanted to restore the union wanted to end slavery.

 

Lincoln, who was accused of being an abolitionist, who later penned the emancipation proclamation, and who had married into a wealthy slave owning family, wrote in a letter:

 

"I would save the Union. I would save it the shortest way under the Constitution. The sooner the national authority can be restored; the nearer the Union will be "the Union as it was." If there be those who would not save the Union, unless they could at the same time save slavery, I do not agree with them. If there be those who would not save the Union unless they could at the same time destroy slavery, I do not agree with them. My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery.  If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I shall believe doing more will help the cause. I shall try to correct errors when shown to be errors; and I shall adopt new views so fast as they shall appear to be true views."

 

Not everyone had the same views.  Shit was complicated.  And surprise, things can represent different things to different people.  Shocking.

 

It should also be noted that he ended the letter with this line: 

 

" I have here stated my purpose according to my view of official duty; and I intend no modification of my oft-expressed personal wish that all men every where could be free."

 

So while his personal view was aligned with what we now know and accept to be morally correct, the point of the letter was that he had to put this aside and look at things dispassionately in order to carry out his duty.  What this means is that if he thought perpetuating slavery would help end the war and restore the union, he would have done that.  For even in the north, slavery was still a controversial issue.

 

Meanwhile in the south, the reason slavery and racism were more openly valued was that due to the regional differences between the north and the south, the economic backbone of the south was agricultural, and an end to slavery could and did cripple them.  This made ending slavery strategically valuable to those who wanted to restore the union and keep it together by weakening the south's ability to rebel, and it likewise made perpetuating slavery strategically valuable to those who wanted to gain and maintain independence.  That is why you see the outspoken support of slavery coming from the confederacy.  Their very independence from the union depended on it.  That doesn't mean everyone liked it, and it doesn't mean the confederacy was only about racism, nor that any flag attributed to the confederacy can and should only be about racism.

[Hyperqube]

If I may, there's a difference between 'represents' and 'is associated with'.

• the swastika doesn't represent naziim, but is associated with it (as the nazi flag contained one)
• the nazi flag was red & white & black, but these colors don't represent nazism, not are associated with it.
   
• the alphabet doesn't represent, nor is associated with the bad things it's creators did

Regardless of what the flag represents, a significant amount of people does associate the flag with racism (the first random internet poll I found, 42% found it offensive; with some in the 'no' camp pointing out it wasn't offensive because it was part of history)

 

 

Don't get me wrong - I'm greately opposite to trying to erase history (it's not because it contains stuff one doesn't like, it should be forgotten) - But there's a time & place for everything.

 

Personally, if it were my Capital, I would rather have it take a symbol away to promote equality over adding a symbol to promote historical correctness ... (the later can - and should - be thought at schools)