Minimum Wage

[Professional Map Painter]

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[v³ Unknown NO FEAR]

Because you will always get paid more doing a job that requires more impressive credentials and labor is in very limited supply. For example, if I run a business that... say... engineers cars, but potential engineers are instead deciding to not go into engineering and instead work at minimum wage fast food restaurants, it's not like I'm going to say "lol i guess i have 2 close my buisness". I'm going to say that I still need to hire engineers, but I need to pay hire wages to lure more people into the field. It works out better for you.

 

"Labour is in very limited supply." FUCK that made me laugh so hard. There are more people than ever that are graduating with engineering degrees and there aren't enough good paying jobs out

there so many end up having to work a job that's either minimum wage or barely above that. Add that with the fact that those students who just graduated now have a shit load of debt with insanely high

interest rates (unless their family was rich of course), they spent years of their lives studying for what? A job that'll only pay a couple bucks more than the guy who serves fries? 

 

We should be encouraging people to study in college and getting educated, not make it impossible for them to pay off their debt and get shitty jobs that hardly pay more than the average McDonald's worker. 

And do you really think running a business is that easy, that you can afford to pay people whatever people tell you to pay them in? 

 

If you're a libertarian why would you use any European country to back up any of your arguments? Lmao

 

When did I say I was a libertarian? Lmao learn 2 read buddy.

 

And how does that even matter, what I said is still true. Those European countries who are doing it right and have no minimum wage, they don't have their people working in slave wages, like the liberals like to say will happen.  

[funkle]

"Labour is in very limited supply." FUCK that made me laugh so hard. There are more people than ever that are graduating with engineering degrees and there aren't enough good paying jobs out

there so many end up having to work a job that's either minimum wage or barely above that. Add that with the fact that those students who just graduated now have a shit load of debt with insanely high

interest rates (unless their family was rich of course), they spent years of their lives studying for what? A job that'll only pay a couple bucks more than the guy who serves fries? 

 

We should be encouraging people to study in college and getting educated, not make it impossible for them to pay off their debt and get shitty jobs that hardly pay more than the average McDonald's worker. 

And do you really think running a business is that easy, that you can afford to pay people whatever people tell you to pay them in? 

There are more people graduating now than in the past couple years I believe, which is why so many degrees are going to waste. All the jobs are being taken so quick by new graduates. It's not like you're going to graduate with a degree in Engineering and try to go into the Biology field either. So you're pretty limited to what those degrees cover. Paying it off is a whole new story. It doesn't help that the Feds are slowly raising interest rates again. At the same time though, people who end up getting real jobs right out of college instead of just a fast food thing do usually get benefits. If you're lucky enough they can sometimes hook you up with a place to live or a car or whatever. It does suck that we live in a time where it's hard as hell to pay off the debt we piled up while trying to get an education so we could get a job good enough to avoid that shit down the road.

[v³ Unknown NO FEAR]

There are more people graduating now than in the past couple years I believe, which is why so many degrees are going to waste. All the jobs are being taken so quick by new graduates. It's not like you're going to graduate with a degree in Engineering and try to go into the Biology field either. So you're pretty limited to what those degrees cover. Paying it off is a whole new story. It doesn't help that the Feds are slowly raising interest rates again. At the same time though, people who end up getting real jobs right out of college instead of just a fast food thing do usually get benefits. If you're lucky enough they can sometimes hook you up with a place to live or a car or whatever. It does suck that we live in a time where it's hard as hell to pay off the debt we piled up while trying to get an education so we could get a job good enough to avoid that shit down the road.

 

That's my point though.

"There are more people than ever that are graduating with degrees and there aren't enough good paying jobs out there so many end up having to work a job that's either minimum wage or barely above that." 

 

When we live in a time like this, the last thing we need is to discourage young people from studying for these degrees by paying someone who dropped out of high school and serves burgers slightly less or sometimes equal (minimum wage hint hint)

to those people who worked for years to get that degree. That's simply irresponsible and plain unfair for the people who work hard for what they earned. 

[Scott Bakula]

When we live in a time like this, the last thing we need is to discourage young people from studying for these degrees by paying someone who dropped out of high school and serves burgers slightly less or sometimes equal (minimum wage hint hint)

 

If a job requires a degree or the like, it will never pay anywhere near minimum wage itself.

 

I'm really sensing that nobody here has actually experienced life at minimum wage. It's hard to actually imagine the pain of throwing yourself into a job for 30+ hours every week, but still cannot make enough to stay afloat. Where even the bare necessities, like food and shelter, are huge challenges because the wages are so little.

[v³ Unknown NO FEAR]

If a job requires a degree or the like, it will never pay anywhere near minimum wage itself.

 

I'm really sensing that nobody here has actually experienced life at minimum wage. It's hard to actually imagine the pain of throwing yourself into a job for 30+ hours every week, but still cannot make enough to stay afloat. Where even the bare necessities, like food and shelter, are huge challenges because the wages are so little.

 

You're not supposed to be flipping burgers as a full time job for your entire life. And either way, playing the sympathy card doesn't really justify paying those types of jobs more money, because they really are not 

meant to be a "life-job" so to speak, and the value of a McDonald's worker is not enough to justify paying them a comfortable wage if the employers don't feel so. 

Don't like the wages from their employer? Fine, he/she isn't forced to work for them, just quit. Look for an employer that sees your value as you see yourself. Can't find one? Maybe the problem isn't the employer then.

[Scott Bakula]

Don't like the wages from their employer? Fine, he/she isn't forced to work for them, just quit. Look for an employer that sees your value as you see yourself. Can't find one? Maybe the problem isn't the employer then.

 

That just proves your disassociation from reality there. If a person can barely make ends meet as it is, how the hell do you expect them to live with an income of zero, even for a brief time?

[v³ Unknown NO FEAR]

That just proves your disassociation from reality there. If a person can barely make ends meet as it is, how the hell do you expect them to live with an income of zero, even for a brief time?

 

I can't believe that just flew over your head. I'm clearly making a point here, giving you an example that definitely isn't going to happen if you work at a low wage job in the first place.

 

You obviously don't understand the real world. You seem to expect that people are entitled to earn whatever wages they wish, and that we all somehow are able to live a perfect happy life flipping burgers.

There's a reason why people continue to work at minimum wage jobs, and it's because they have no other option. That's my point I was making. You think people get to choose whatever employer they like best

and get the wage and working conditions they want? Oh yeah, let me just quit my job here and I'LL pick MY employer! Yeah cause I'm so special and I deserve to make a wage that other people spend years to reach there.

 

Tough luck, if you think you're worth more then go out and prove yourself. Otherwise, accept reality and keep what you have, because there isn't any better jobs out there that wouldn't be taken by educated people. 

[Scott Bakula]

You obviously don't understand the real world.

 

I've been in the working world for over a decade. I am quite aware of the real world and how it works.

 

I never said that a person should get whatever wages they wish. I said that if a person is a contributing member of society with a job, they should at the very least be able to make enough money for a basic quality of life (i.e. roof over the head and food on the table). As you said, some people are stuck in the minimum wage jobs because they can't go anywhere else. Why is it so wrong to prop them up so they can at least have a life worth living?

[Splat]

When did I say I was a libertarian? Lmao learn 2 read buddy.

 

And how does that even matter, what I said is still true. Those European countries who are doing it right and have no minimum wage, they don't have their people working in slave wages, like the liberals like to say will happen.  

"The government should not be the one who decides on how much people should get paid. The people should, through negotiations and labour unions"

 

Sounds like libertarianism/neoliberalism to me.

 

Also, CH has a minimum wage.

[There]

"Labour is in very limited supply." FUCK that made me laugh so hard. There are more people than ever that are graduating with engineering degrees and there aren't enough good paying jobs out

there so many end up having to work a job that's either minimum wage or barely above that. Add that with the fact that those students who just graduated now have a shit load of debt with insanely high

interest rates (unless their family was rich of course), they spent years of their lives studying for what? A job that'll only pay a couple bucks more than the guy who serves fries? 

 

I'm saying increasing the minimum wage would decrease the supply of labor (of some types, such as having an engineering degree), as you said, as they will go to careers at McDonalds or whatnot. In order to hire people, those who employ people in these fields will have to pay more, so, if you are an engineer, you will make more money.

 

We should be encouraging people to study in college and getting educated, not make it impossible for them to pay off their debt and get shitty jobs that hardly pay more than the average McDonald's worker. 

And do you really think running a business is that easy, that you can afford to pay people whatever people tell you to pay them in? 

 

I don't think running a business is "that easy" but I also don't think that employers are paying their employees the maximum amount of money they can afford to. They pay them the minimum amount of money they can get away with, and this is true in all fields. They can afford to pay them more.

[v³ Unknown NO FEAR]

 

 

 

I don't think running a business is "that easy" but I also don't think that employers are paying their employees the maximum amount of money they can afford to. They pay them the minimum amount of money they can get away with, and this is true in all fields. They can afford to pay them more.

 

 

You're only true on this. They pay them the minimum amount of money they can get away with, and this is true in all fields. If you're a graduate with an engineering degree chances are you're still going to be making a pretty low wage (slightly above minimum), and the minimum wage increase usually does not benefit those graduates who actually invested time, effort, and money into their degrees. All the minimum wage does is just decrease the wage difference between those who are educated and those who don't go to college, which is my entire point in that it helps to discourage young people from investing their lives into getting themselves educated. 

[v³ Unknown NO FEAR]

"The government should not be the one who decides on how much people should get paid. The people should, through negotiations and labour unions"

 

Sounds like libertarianism/neoliberalism to me.

 

Also, CH has a minimum wage.

 

It may sound libertarian to you but that's a subjective opinion. I'm sure there are plenty of people who agree with that idea but they don't subscribe to a libertarian/neolib ideology either. 

 

Also, you're dead wrong. https://www.ch.ch/en/minimum-wage-and-average-earnings/

 

"Swiss law does not specify any minimum wage or average earnings. In most cases, pay levels are agreed between the employer and the employee during the recruitment process."

[v³ Unknown NO FEAR]

Why is it so wrong to prop them up so they can at least have a life worth living?

 

Why do you think people should be forced by the government to pay others more than what they think they should? My whole point is, why should the government be the decider between an employer and an employee?

You don't seem to like to acknowledge the fact that countries like Sweden, Finland, and Switzerland don't have governments that enforce a specific wage for their citizens. And they're doing much better per citizen economically wise. 

[Splat]

It may sound libertarian to you but that's a subjective opinion. I'm sure there are plenty of people who agree with that idea but they don't subscribe to a libertarian/neolib ideology either. 

 

Also, you're dead wrong. https://www.ch.ch/en/minimum-wage-and-average-earnings/

 

"Swiss law does not specify any minimum wage or average earnings. In most cases, pay levels are agreed between the employer and the employee during the recruitment process."

Tell that to my Swiss IRC friend lol. Oh well.

[Tats]

Why do you think people should be forced by the government to pay others more than what they think they should? My whole point is, why should the government be the decider between an employer and an employee?

 

Because such employees with a minimum wage are numerous. They are so numerous that some people would work for almost nothing and big firms will take advantage of them. To ensure a minimum level of life to all citizens (just the necessary for dignity), the government should fix a minimum wage according to the cost of life. A government should protect the weakest, not the strongest : I know they actually do the contrary.

 

In a situation of unemployment, the more educated workers get the jobs of the less educated workers ; it comes to a vicious circle where everyone tries to get pieces of paper to get a shitty job. That's definitely a bad idea to promote high degrees for large amount of people, especially if they need to make a loan.

[Free money accepted here]

I don't think minimum wage should be a thing at all. Why is it fair that the guy at McDonalds who likely has no post-secondary degree and invested little into his education be paid $7.25, whereas someone who spent thousands on university not be employed? If you invested nothing into your education, your pay should be near nothing. If companies no longer have to overpay the cashiers/education-less workers, then there can be more jobs/higher paying jobs for those who did invest in their education. These days, university graduates have loans with super-high interest rates, and need to somehow make it back.

[t0night]

if you don't believe in a minimum wage you believe in the maximum possible exploitation of workers as a resource and not in the maximum possible benefit to ordinary working people from the system. simple as that.

 

even minimum wage jobs don't match up to reasonable living standards. wages are not set at actual 'free market' rates when workers have no agency or power or legislation to help them. the 'free market' is 100% a myth and in reality a 'free market' depends entirely on how free you want it to be which depends entirely on your politics. people yelled about freedom of the labour market when child labour was outlawed. that's a government intervention in the labour market. environmental restrictions in car development, same thing. hasn't prevented much in terms of power or ridiculously lavish cars being created. just made them more expensive, made car manufacturers put some effort into being less destructive. mostly not contested now.

 

it's all perspective as to how 'free' you like your markets. the same people who love free markets love huge government subsidies for the military-industrial sector, for oil, for banking.

[t0night]

I don't think minimum wage should be a thing at all. Why is it fair that the guy at McDonalds who likely has no post-secondary degree and invested little into his education be paid $7.25, whereas someone who spent thousands on university not be employed? If you invested nothing into your education, your pay should be near nothing. If companies no longer have to overpay the cashiers/education-less workers, then there can be more jobs/higher paying jobs for those who did invest in their education. These days, university graduates have loans with super-high interest rates, and need to somehow make it back.

because not everyone has the same opportunities? and because he needs $7.25 to fucking feed and house himself? if you cannot magic up the thousands and thousands of dollars/pounds to go to college, you don't have to be consigned to the fucking heap of unskilled labour to be treated like shit for your whole life, to be outright exploited in the name of those lucky enough to have parents who could afford college for them!!

 

what is wrong with you. these are millions of people you are talking about and you seriously talk about cutting their wages sharply because they didn't/couldn't go to higher education?

 

holy shit i've never read a more up-your-own-arse pseudo-intellectualy elite post on these forums and that says a lot.

[There]

if you don't believe in a minimum wage you believe in the maximum possible exploitation of workers as a resource and not in the maximum possible benefit to ordinary working people from the system. simple as that.

 

Isn't that unnecessarily inflammatory? If you don't believe the living wage is an effective way to combat poverty, you don't believe "in the maximum possible exploitation of workers as a resource and not in the maximum possible benefit to ordinary working people from the system". Even when you don't think any government action is necessary to combat poverty and help the poor, I would argue you are simply misguided, and not hostile as you seem to think.

[v³ Unknown NO FEAR]

Tell that to my Swiss IRC friend lol. Oh well.

 

Told you.

 

Maybe he's too busy enjoying his higher average wage [compared to Americans] to notice lmao. 

 

To ensure a minimum level of life to all citizens (just the necessary for dignity), the government should fix a minimum wage according to the cost of life. A government should protect the weakest, not the strongest : I know they actually do the contrary.

 

But you see, that's your problem. The irony is that even though you acknowledge the fact that the government is doing almost nothing for its poorest while giving the wealthiest people corporate loop-holes and tax breaks,

you still want the government to be in charge of how much people get to make. I'm just going to re-quote myself because it's annoying to have to re-type the same statement.

 

The government should not be the one who decides on how much people should get paid. The people should, through negotiations and labour unions.

Take Finland, Sweden, Norway, Switzerland, and many other European countries for example. Their citizens take an active role in forming unions and negotiating an agreed wage with employers. 

Liberals like to claim that without a minimum wage, we'd all be working in slavery conditions and earn meager wages. Doesn't look anything like that for those Scandinavian countries that don't have any minimum wage whatsoever.

In fact, many may argue that the standards of living in those countries are much better than in America, and many studies confirm that the citizens from those countries are doing much better than Americans economically. 

 

[Tats]

It doesn't really matter whether it is the government, or through negotiations between patronal and labour trade unions, that fix a minimum wage : it's up to every country's own political traditions. I think the important point is that society ensures a decent life to all workers. The problem actually is that economic crisis has struck many countries because of the greed of a financial oligarchy, who has benefited from public assistance and still today, but constantly call for free-market as it comes to labour market : they are not afraid of their own contradictions.

[t0night]

Isn't that unnecessarily inflammatory? If you don't believe the living wage is an effective way to combat poverty, you don't believe "in the maximum possible exploitation of workers as a resource and not in the maximum possible benefit to ordinary working people from the system". Even when you don't think any government action is necessary to combat poverty and help the poor, I would argue you are simply misguided, and not hostile as you seem to think.

before we engage on this debate, i think that last time we talked you believed in arranging some kind of free manual labour pool of unemployed people, a callback to the workhouse system from victorian britain. do you still believe in that? if so i'm not gonna enter into a discussion about the politics of labour because that was such a ridiculously archaic position to me that it suggests we would go absolutely nowhere with any discussion.

[Free money accepted here]

"Labour is in very limited supply." FUCK that made me laugh so hard. There are more people than ever that are graduating with engineering degrees and there aren't enough good paying jobs out

there so many end up having to work a job that's either minimum wage or barely above that. Add that with the fact that those students who just graduated now have a shit load of debt with insanely high

interest rates (unless their family was rich of course), they spent years of their lives studying for what? A job that'll only pay a couple bucks more than the guy who serves fries? 

 

We should be encouraging people to study in college and getting educated, not make it impossible for them to pay off their debt and get shitty jobs that hardly pay more than the average McDonald's worker. 

And do you really think running a business is that easy, that you can afford to pay people whatever people tell you to pay them in? 

 

 

When did I say I was a libertarian? Lmao learn 2 read buddy.

 

And how does that even matter, what I said is still true. Those European countries who are doing it right and have no minimum wage, they don't have their people working in slave wages, like the liberals like to say will happen.  

^

 

With lower/no minimum wage, those who spent $0 on their education will be paid what they deserve (lower) and those who have college debts to pay will be making more, since the company now doesn't have to pay their cashiers as much. The government should encourage higher education, not flipping burgers.

[There]

before we engage on this debate, i think that last time we talked you believed in arranging some kind of free manual labour pool of unemployed people, a callback to the workhouse system from victorian britain. do you still believe in that? if so i'm not gonna enter into a discussion about the politics of labour because that was such a ridiculously archaic position to me that it suggests we would go absolutely nowhere with any discussion.

 

I don't exactly remember the details of the discussion (and whatever you said doesn't seem exactly right), but no, I have changed a lot of my opinions.