PSA: Trading with bp.tf automatic WILL count towards your trades with scammers on TF2Outpost

[BlaqkAudio]

So don't use automatic is what you're saying.

 

Yeah, ok.

[knavesmith]

Outpost is a private site and if you use it, you agree to follow its rules. We do not set rules for other sites, but if there is a collision between a feature and our rules, users will have to choose if they are willing to take the risk of getting their access to Outpost denied. As much as users like to see the trading community as one entity, this is not the case.

The response I was expecting to get. Thanks for the info.

[The One]

So don't use automatic is what you're saying.

 

Yeah, ok.

No. You can use automatic or trade.tf auto-acceptance bot all you want. But you have to take the risk of a scammer alt trading with your bot and getting you into shit.

[Дебра]

Now what gives you authority to effectively tell users of this website that they cannot use this website? Users can't tell their bots to check if it's a scammer alt or not, same way as you can't tell the SCM to not sell your item to scammers.

This rule makes little sense at all. If I wanted to I could fuck over a lot of honest traders like PPM because of this new rule. http://www.trade.tf/mybots/sellers/Unusual%20Blighted%20Beak

[♠Derpeh♤]

The problem is, that without the user admitting to it, we can never know if someone does it willingly. The same is trading with marked scammers knowingly

While I am again st scammers...etc I don't wee why selling items to a scammer who has offered b/o should be placed on a bot, I doubt any trader would check if someone offered b/o let alone a bot.

 

Does that mean I can report every single key bot/hat/unusual bot on outpost as well? I cab guarantee a large number of scammers have bought from them.

[sirploko]

While i do think that putting something up on automatic over 6 keys seems kinda silly, there is still the fact that some people do it. You also have to take into account that this bot does not know who is a scammer/scammer alt and who isn't. 

I can see how it can be hard to tell if someone used automatic to sell their item as opposed to actually doing the trade.

But still, this seems like, as Gent says, Outpost trying to stop people from using Automatic.

 

No, people can use automatic as they please, but if they have the misfortune of getting scammer alts as their customers, they will have to face the consequences on Outpost. It says in the automatic page, that tagged users and those banned on bp.tf are unable to use the service. That means that bp.tf does not want to have scammer alts, who they ban, using it either, but of course they can't ban every alt before he makes a trade.

[Slocumruls]

i think the main question that people need to be asking is what needs to be implemented to comply with Outpost's bot trading rules:

 

These rules apply specifically to users advertising bot services on the website. If you aren't running a bot then you don't need to worry about this section.

1. Full ownership disclosure. You may only advertise your bots under your main account. If your main account hasn't logged into the website before then you may use a single bot's account and state your main account as the owner in your trade notes. There is currently no restriction on the number of bots that you may list under your main account, but relisting rules still apply â€” one trade for each service (key banking, hat banking, etc).
2. No fees. You cannot charge users to trade with your bot — if you wish to run a service like this then you should advertise your bot elsewhere.
3. No trading with scammers. This is an extension of the rule disallowing users to trade with known scammers — your bot should use the SteamRep API to blacklist tagged users from trading^[1].
4. You are accountable for any trades that your bot makes with known scammers, users with a private profile or items that have been recently scammed. You should be taking as many measures as possible to prevent hijackers and scammers from profiting from their bad deeds. If your bots are found to be accepting scammed goods then you will be punished.

^[1] An example for how to implement the SteamRep API with your bot can be found here.

[Water Salesman]

 but of course they can't ban every alt before he makes a trade.

Which is why people shouldn't get marked because of these guys trading with their bots

[Prince Lowell]

No, people can use automatic as they please, but if they have the misfortune of getting scammer alts as their customers, they will have to face the consequences on Outpost. It says in the automatic page, that tagged users and those banned on bp.tf are unable to use the service. That means that bp.tf does not want to have scammer alts, who they ban, using it either, but of course they can't ban every alt before he makes a trade.

The misfortune.

The misfortune.

THE MISFORTUNE?

that means, that you can basically tag someone just because someone gets unlucky enough to have a scammer alt respond to thier trade? that's honestly kind of non-sensical.

[sirploko]

So, wait a second, clarify for us.

 

Are you talking about buying from scammers, or selling to scammers? Or both?

One is reasonable and the other is insane, and hopefully you know which is which.

 

Both. Naturally not very many scammers are actually buying items from the SCM, but launder their stolen goods, that's why I only mentioned sellers. The ratio about reports that turn out to be SCM purchases is probably somewhere around 50 to 1, in favour of cases where the user that was reported bought an item from a scammer on SCM.

 

Automatic, as I just learned, only lets you sell items, so in that case it only covers this part.

[The One]

Now what gives you authority to effectively tell users of this website that they cannot use this website? Users can't tell their bots to check if it's a scammer alt or not, same way as you can't tell the SCM to not sell your item to scammers.

This rule makes little sense at all. If I wanted to I could fuck over a lot of honest traders like PPM because of this new rule. http://www.trade.tf/mybots/sellers/Unusual%20Blighted%20Beak

Yes. That is right. 

 

The misfortune.

The misfortune.

THE MISFORTUNE?

that means, that you can basically tag someone just because someone gets unlucky enough to have a scammer alt respond to thier trade? that's honestly kind of non-sensical.

Yes. If you see someone using any sort of bot, you can ask a scammer alt to trade with them and have their reputation tarnished.

[Gent♥]

Both. Naturally not very many scammers are actually buying items from the SCM, but launder their stolen goods, that's why I only mentioned sellers. The ratio about reports that turn out to be SCM purchases is probably somewhere around 50 to 1, in favour of cases where the user that was reported bought an item from a scammer on SCM.

 

Automatic, as I just learned, only lets you sell items, so in that case it only covers this part.

 

Ah. Right. That's silly.

Buying from scammers, I could understand, for obvious reasons.

But this is essentially enforcing a police state you'll find impossible to reasonably enforce. And it's also a massive double-standard, as its practically no different from scammers buying from you on SCM, which is a complete non-offence.

[sirploko]

I was just pointing it out since TF2Outpost seems to be the only site that butts into every trading site and formulates regulations on everything they have to offer (No offense to any Outpost staff). Sort of like how the U.S. affiliated themselves with practically ever foreign entanglement in modern days.

 

You realize though, that this is only about Outpost in the end? We do not ban you from bp.tf, bazaar, scrap.tf, etc. Nor do we issue tags for trading with scammers, unless it is a very special case, since SR policy is to tag for 3 trades with scammers and we permaban after at most 2 trades already. The only thing that is affected is your access to Outpost, anything else will stay as it was, if you happen to be permabanned.

[BlaqkAudio]

While you're at it, make it so you get a ban if a scammer buys an item from you on the scm. Equality amirite?

 

EDIT: Kinda ninja'd by Gent.

[www.]

How about instead of banning users who use backpack.tf automatic to automatically and unintentionally trade with users banned on outpost, get your staff to wake up and make an API that the backpack.tf staff can use and deliver as an option to those who use backpack.tf automatic.

 

Or ban the backpack.tf staff instead. You guys'll be remembered for this lol

[Mr. Badger]

Go do tickets pls

[sirploko]

If I'm not mistaken automatic has logs that allow someone to see whether a trade was accepted by a bot or not, so you can use that to decide if the bot accepted a trade from a scammer (not the bot owner's fault) or if the owner traded with the scammer of their own will.

This is interesting and certainly something I will talk with bp.tf staff about. It still does not help if a user colludes with a scammer to sell an item to him and just lets the bot accept for him though.

[♠Derpeh♤]

Both. Naturally not very many scammers are actually buying items from the SCM, but launder their stolen goods, that's why I only mentioned sellers. The ratio about reports that turn out to be SCM purchases is probably somewhere around 50 to 1, in favour of cases where the user that was reported bought an item from a scammer on SCM.

 

Automatic, as I just learned, only lets you sell items, so in that case it only covers this part.

But this rule would also be applied for existing bots which use outpost correct? There are also a extraordinary large amount of [premium]currency bots on outpost, you won't mind if I reported them all for selling to alts?

 

Quite unfair to place basically human judgement for a bot

[Дебра]

This is interesting and certainly something I will talk with bp.tf staff about. It still does not help if a user colludes with a scammer to sell an item to him and just lets the bot accept for him though.

 

You can't sell a item to a backpack.tf automatic user via backpack.tf automatic. You can only sell items with it, you can't buy items. Please do some reasearch before making rules against it. Backpack.tf automatic only accepts refined metal, keys and earbuds. All of which are already pure.

[Wolfy]

If this is the case then Geel needs to be banned right now because I'm pretty sure a ton of Outpost banned users have sold things to the bots under his jurisdiction

 

This rule makes absolutely no sense

[sirploko]

You can't sell a item to a backpack.tf automatic user via backpack.tf automatic. You can only sell items with it, you can't buy items. Please do some reasearch before making rules against it. Backpack.tf automatic only accepts refined metal, keys and earbuds. All of which are already pure.

You can talk to the scammer alt however and tell him to buy the item you put up, that is obviously what I was describing.

[knavesmith]

You realize though, that this is only about Outpost in the end? We do not ban you from bp.tf, bazaar, scrap.tf, etc. Nor do we issue tags for trading with scammers, unless it is a very special case, since SR policy is to tag for 3 trades with scammers and we permaban after at most 2 trades already. The only thing that is affected is your access to Outpost, anything else will stay as it was, if you happen to be permabanned.

I made that post before you responded to my original question, so I am now aware of it. Thanks anyways.

 

i think the main question that people need to be asking is what needs to be implemented to comply with Outpost's bot trading rules:

It should be reworded to say "These rules apply specifically to users advertising bot services on ANY website" since they're basically enforcing their "No trading with marked scammers/obvious alts" and "Your bot can't trade with marked scammers/obvious alts" rules across all websites instead of just on Outpost.

[Дебра]

You can talk to the scammer alt however and tell him to buy the item you put up, that is obviously what I was describing.

 

I can do that with the market too.

[Senpai Absol~]

Hope you go and ban geel right now, Dobro can trade with his bots all he wants with his alts and other people's scammer alts.

(I'm fine with the rule btw, Just that you should go and ban geel now lol)

[Toughsox]

Personally....why anyone with half a brain would use their MAIN ACCOUNTS to let a bot auto-trade when you aren't home.....  remind me of this conversation when some coder with nothing better to do finds a hole in any bot system and starts hijacking complete accounts.