What's the Point of banning people for buying scammed items on the S.C.M?

[BlueSpider]

I really didn't want to make a full thread but I wanted Opinions on my thought process through this. I know the mods didn't want any discussion about the people who got banned doing this but this is not directed at anyone in particular and I will only use them as examples. I wanted to use status updates but it was to long for that.

 

So recently 2 members got banned for "Searching obviously scammed items off the market" and "Knowingly buying a scammed hat off the market" but I don't understand the point of the Perma-bans in this case. I'm going to get straight to the point here and explain my opinion on this. So they got perma-banned from every trading website with very little chance to appeal the ban But what do these bans do to stop what they did in the first place. I'm not saying they will do this (and go that low but it's quite easy to do so) but what do they have to lose buying more obviously scammed items / Sharked items off the market more. Your bans literally fuel them to do it more because of their anger for why they got banned in the first place. True some may argue "They can't trade them though" but there are many ways around this such as.... Selling them for profit on the S.C.M, People adding them wanting to buy your their items, Them adding people who are looking for their items, and Paypal trades to people who just don't care why they got banned. The reason you banned people is not helping the people learn from their mistakes you're just helping the scammers / sharkers if they do what I posted above. Banning people from every trading site literally does nothing to stop this and is pretty Useless to do. SO WHERE IS THE LOGIC HERE.

 

This is just my opinion and of course people may have others but imo bans shouldn't be permanent unless they go way out of proportion like Google did or something like that. IMO BANS SHOULD LAST RANGING FROM 1 DAY to 1 YEAR (maybe more) depending on what they did wrong.

 

There is prob a Chance this may get closed by the mods but atleast I got my opinion past them and I don't really trade barely anymore (everything I have is generally for keeps unless I get an Amazing deal) so I could careless if I get banned for something. Who knows if I do get banned from every trading site maybe I'll just go buy Obviously scammed / sharked items off the market and make profit that way

 

TL:DR - Banning for buying stuff on the S.C.M is near useless because it is most likely high tier traders who actually know the person is a scammer / sharker and the bans are literally useless and do nothing to help the problem and what they did in the first place.

 

Feel free to give criticism because I can handle it. And if mods close this is will show how incompetent they really are because I believe my opinion is just and it gives decently good points.

 

/Discuss? 

 

 

 

 

[Gone]

I really didn't want to make a full thread but I wanted Opinions on my thought process through this. I know the mods didn't want any discussion about the people who got banned doing this but this is not directed at anyone in particular and I will only use them as examples. I wanted to use status updates but it was to long for that.

 

So recently 2 members got banned for "Searching obviously scammed items off the market" and "Knowingly buying a scammed hat off the market" but I don't understand the point of the Perma-bans in this case. I'm going to get straight to the point here and explain my opinion on this. So they got perma-banned from every trading website with very little chance to appeal the ban But what do these bans do to stop what they did in the first place. I'm not saying they will do this (and go that low but it's quite easy to do so) but what do they have to lose buying more obviously scammed items / Sharked items off the market more. Your bans literally fuel them to do it more because of their anger for why they got banned in the first place. True some may argue "They can't trade them though" but there are many ways around this such as.... Selling them for profit on the S.C.M, People adding them wanting to buy your their items, Them adding people who are looking for their items, and Paypal trades to people who just don't care why they got banned. The reason you banned people is not helping the people learn from their mistakes you're just helping the scammers / sharkers if they do what I posted above. Banning people from every trading site literally does nothing to stop this and is pretty Useless to do. SO WHERE IS THE LOGIC HERE.

 

This is just my opinion and of course people may have others but imo bans shouldn't be permanent unless they go way out of proportion like Google did or something like that. IMO BANS SHOULD LAST RANGING FROM 1 DAY to 1 YEAR (maybe more) depending on what they did wrong.

 

There is prob a Chance this may get closed by the mods but atleast I got my opinion past them and I don't really trade barely anymore (everything I have is generally for keeps unless I get an Amazing deal) so I could careless if I get banned for something. Who knows if I do get banned from every trading site maybe I'll just go buy Obviously scammed / sharked items off the market and make profit that way

 

TL:DR - Banning for buying stuff on the S.C.M is near useless because it is most likely high tier traders who actually know the person is a scammer / sharker and the bans are literally useless and do nothing to help the problem and what they did in the first place.

 

Feel free to give criticism because I can handle it. And if mods close this is will show how incompetent they really are because I believe my opinion is just and it gives decently good points.

 

/Discuss?

 

You can get banned from buying items from scammers on SCM? How the hell should we know that we bought it from a scammer

[OverduePixels]

You can get banned from buying items from scammers on SCM? How the hell should we know that we bought it from a scammer

 

No, you don't. You get banned for buying it KNOWINGLY on S.C.M.

[Gone]

No, you don't. You get banned for buying it KNOWINGLY on S.C.M.

How would you know you bought it from a scammer? All the items I buy on scm, I don't check the persons profile

[3.50]

You can get banned from buying items from scammers on SCM? How the hell should we know that we bought it from a scammer

This is indeed a slippery slope.

 

The idea is, of course, is that by purchasing from scammers, you're encouraging scamming. But...it's not always obvious.

 

If the person who listed the items is marked as a scammer, that's pretty clear-cut. Otherwise....not so much. Even a private profile, or someone with 2 games, isn't anything worse than "suspicious".

 

Also, buying from the SCM is as close as you can come to buying straight from Valve, so it could be argued that no one should be punished for anything they bought from the SCM.

[3.50]

How would you know you bought it from a scammer? All the items I buy on scm, I don't check the persons profile

Umm...check their profile, then.

Treat it like any other trade (if it's an unusual. You won't get banned for buying a strange rocket launcher from a scammer via the SCM)

[OverduePixels]

How would you know you bought it from a scammer? All the items I buy on scm, I don't check the persons profile

 

Nobody checks person's profile on S.C.M. None of the S.C.M user does. I know that.

 

Refer to this to know "how you know" 

http://i.imgur.com/e8ul7F6.jpg

[OverduePixels]

Umm...check their profile, then.

Treat it like any other trade (if it's an unusual. You won't get banned for buying a strange rocket launcher from a scammer via the SCM)

You're saying this to 1 person out of the rest of the Steam Community S.C.M users. Good luck with that

This v v v 

The problem is almost the whole S.C.M users does not do that(do background checks). If people are going to get banned for that, might as well ban almost all S.C.M users, which is almost the whole Steam Community. I can say for sure almost every S.C.M user have bought and sold items from scammers/hijackers, of course not intentionally, they quickly trade in fear of someone snatching the deal before someone else does. It can't be stopped. Especially when people lurks around S.C.M and uses trade.tf live deals.

 

This is how it is going to work and sites like Outpost and Bazaar have to deal with it, if they want to keep their site up that is. If they find out that the user traded intentionally and fully was aware then they can do the ban just like they did with Cranwell because he was fully aware of the person he was trading with.

 

Edit : Forgot to add... It is well clearly explained here by Polar, if you knew who you were trading with and was fully aware and over all that you were warned beforehand, you deserve the ban. Simple as that. http://forums.backpack.tf/index.php?/topic/18341-should-i-be-unbanned/page-3&do=findComment&comment=204046

 

I am not saying they shouldn't, they can but almost all S.C.M users prefers not to because the deal most likely will disappear by the time they come back doing the thorough check on the seller. S.C.M has the most users of all.

[BlueSpider]

Umm...check their profile, then.

Treat it like any other trade (if it's an unusual. You won't get banned for buying a strange rocket launcher from a scammer via the SCM)

I personally do this before I buy an Unusual off the S.C.M.. It's usually just to make sure it's not duped or anything (idc if it's under 3 buds I don't want it duped unless it's an exceptional deal).. I also check the rep but most people just blindly do it. The main point of this thread to to show that banning people just helps the problem and doesn't slow it down  or get rid of it.

[Brian.]

Giving scammers profit. simple as that. I however don't agree with the rule but I respect it and obviously don't do it.

[3.50]

I personally do this before I buy an Unusual off the S.C.M.. It's usually just to make sure it's not duped or anything (idc if it's under 3 buds I don't want it duped unless it's an exceptional deal).. I also check the rep but most people just blindly do it. The main point of this thread to to show that banning people just helps the problem and doesn't slow it down  or get rid of it.

Yeh, I'll agree that it's silly to ban people for buying things from scammers via the SCM, in most cases.

 

However, I think that when people specifically (and admittedly) go looking for scammed/hijacked hats...that's different. That's looking to profit from scammers, and the fact that they're using the SCM, rather than trading directly, is fairly irrelevant.

[BlueSpider]

Giving scammers profit. simple as that. I however don't agree with the rule but I respect it and obviously don't do it.

But like I said if they ban the people who do it they now have nothing to lose and will just do it freely now without worry of getting banned because they are already banned on every trading site. Like I said above bans should range from 1 day - 1 year depending on what they did wrong.

[Heated Bread]

You get banned if there is sufficient evidence to demonstrate that you are wilfully trading with scammers.  Where the trading actually takes place doesn't matter.

[3.50]

You get banned if there is sufficient evidence to demonstrate that you are wilfully trading with scammers.  Where the trading actually takes place doesn't matter.

[OverduePixels]

Yeh, I'll agree that it's silly to ban people for buying things from scammers via the SCM, in most cases.

 

However, I think that when people specifically (and admittedly) go looking for scammed/hijacked hats...that's different. That's looking to profit from scammers, and the fact that they're using the SCM, rather than trading directly, is fairly irrelevant.

You get banned if there is sufficient evidence to demonstrate that you are wilfully trading with scammers.  Where the trading actually takes place doesn't matter.

 

Exactly what Heated and Frisky said

[BlueSpider]

You get banned if there is sufficient evidence to demonstrate that you are wilfully trading with scammers.  Where the trading actually takes place doesn't matter.

But that doesn't really answer my question and what I said. I said whats the point of banning them PERMANENTLY for this if they will just do it again because they have nothing to lose. What i was implying is yes it is wrong but the bans should not be permanent. Like I said multiple times bans should range from 1 day to 1 year. 1 year would give them time to think about what the did and not get upset and do what they did over and over again and hopefully they would be mature not to. Permanent bans to nothing but fuel people to do more stuff wrong because of anger of getting banned (in a lot of cases I've noticed)

[=NickFury=]

But that doesn't really answer my question and what I said. I said whats the point of banning them PERMANENTLY for this if they will just do it again because they have nothing to lose. What i was implying is yes it is wrong but the bans should not be permanent. Like I said multiple times bans should range from 1 day to 1 year. 1 year would give them time to think about what the did and not get upset and do what they did over and over again and hopefully they would be mature not to. Permanent bans to nothing but fuel people to do more stuff wrong because of anger of getting banned (in a lot of cases I've noticed)

I agree that it's overkill. It would still cater to the victims and send the message if the bans weren't permanent. All the bans do for anyone else in the first place is to disincentivize scamming and trading with scammers. That's just creating an obstacle via fear, and anyone who is determined will ignore and circumvent it anyways. It's way too harsh to actively thin out our community just to maintain a barrier of fear that doesn't even guarantee to stop scammers or fences.

[Heated Bread]

But that doesn't really answer my question and what I said. I said whats the point of banning them PERMANENTLY for this if they will just do it again because they have nothing to lose. What i was implying is yes it is wrong but the bans should not be permanent. Like I said multiple times bans should range from 1 day to 1 year. 1 year would give them time to think about what the did and not get upset and do what they did over and over again and hopefully they would be mature not to. Permanent bans to nothing but fuel people to do more stuff wrong because of anger of getting banned (in a lot of cases I've noticed)

 

If we're talking about outpost, the point is to keep them away.  That's what banning does.  A permanent ban does not happen lightly either.  Someone usually has to either repeatedly fuck up, or do something so heinous that a perma-ban is warranted.  A perma-ban is basically saying "this user cannot follow the rules", or "this user is simply so bad that we don't want him/her around our site".

 

They do issue temporary bans, and I'd imagine that they're probably way more frequent than the permanent ones.

 

So if you're looking at it from the perspective of "well they're just going to do it again", you are kinda missing the point of the permanent ban, which again is to keep the person away.  Oh and as a side bonus, it also serves as a deterrent to other users.

[Aearsears]

[Blatch]

What I hope this doesn't devolve into is for somebody to be banned for buying a scammed hat off the SCM with zero proof as to whether they knew. That would be BS. I can understand being paranoid enough to check every person on a normal trading website, and then there are things like chatlogs and stuff like that, but considering that you can buy a hat in literally seconds without coming into contact with the seller, how do they know that you knew? With Cranwell, at least we knew he questioned the history of the hat and bought it anyway.

[Дебра]

If you trade with a scammer out of luck on the SCM bans shouldn't be given. Most legit sales on the market are hard to tell if it was a legit owner or not because he can put it on the SCM before he has it in his BP.TF profile.

If you message a scammer and tell him to put it up on the SCM so you can make it look 'clean' and sell it for profit you deserve to be banned more than someone who buys a scammed hat from a quickseller.

Just my opinion.

[Mark Unread]

But weren't bans from trades and Outpost or other sites like a rieducation way to sharkers and scammers to "follow the rules"? Because if we make this as a real crime, is like that scammers have killed somebody. Is just my thought.

[Heated Bread]

But weren't bans from trades and Outpost or other sites like a rieducation way to sharkers and scammers to "follow the rules"? Because if we make this as a real crime, is like that scammers have killed somebody. Is just my thought.

 

No, that's what temporary bans are for.

[Heated Bread]

What I hope this doesn't devolve into is for somebody to be banned for buying a scammed hat off the SCM with zero proof as to whether they knew. That would be BS. I can understand being paranoid enough to check every person on a normal trading website, and then there are things like chatlogs and stuff like that, but considering that you can buy a hat in literally seconds without coming into contact with the seller, how do they know that you knew? With Cranwell, at least we knew he questioned the history of the hat and bought it anyway.

 

I imagine that such a ban would basically be the result of looking at a person's repeated history of buying scammed hats to establish a pattern.

[Usurper_King?]

yeah, after reading this I realized how stupid it is to ban people buying from the SCM even if its scammed. I understand banning them so their chances of trading ingame in trade servers or by using outpost/bp.tf are really low, but it should not take away the freedom for a person to sell or buy from the SCM. After all, the trading economy in TF2 is all made up by the community, buying from the SCM is not up to us it is made by Valve for us to do so if we please.