Price manipulating by 'Suggestions' abuse

[Hugh Jackman]

Hi there, so my question is, what stops anyone from manipulating the low-supply item, by owning multiple of these items, and selling those item for higher prices to themselves?
Case example: 
1.You own 2-5 same unusuals, the total supply is 100-200.
2.You create other accounts (2-5 accounts), supply those accounts with pure keys.
3.From your main acc with unusuals you create listings for all of your 2-5 unusuals with a price of 100keys each, however their market price based on last suggestion is lets 80 keys.
4.You go to each of your other accounts and buy them.
5.You create a new account and create a suggestion, with an evidence of this 5 trades, suggesting that the price should be raised from 80 to 100 keys since 'look 2-5 unusuals were sold for 100keys'
6.Suggestion gets approved (i believe, why wouldnt it be approved since there is evidence).
7.You go back to your accounts with the unusuals, and list them for 90-100keys each.

8.Profit

 

You dont lose anything, you only win, so, the main question is - where is the catch?

[Larry Kaberga]

The sales are reviewed by the mods, given that evidence was provided on the suggestion so any decent backpack.tf moderator will quickly realize some shennanigans are going on and simply reject the price suggestion.

[Sir Spoon The Second]

if i am not mistaken using alts to buy items to boost the price of an item to net more profit is price manipulation witch is a bannable offense on backpack (i am 95% sure iv seen accounts with bp bans with the statements from mods that can be sum up as price manipulation)

if you don't get banned your rep will plummet making it hard or impossible to sell items on the open market and the only people you'd be able to sell items to are people that don't know your rep, people that don't care or you use mannco to hid its your account so you can buy and sell items exclusively on mannco

its just a matter of when you get caught doing this 

[Littlepudintater]

48 minutes ago, Übermensch_saveTF2 said:

Hi there, so my question is, what stops anyone from manipulating the low-supply item, by owning multiple of these items, and selling those item for higher prices to themselves?
Case example: 
1.You own 2-5 same unusuals, the total supply is 100-200.
2.You create other accounts (2-5 accounts), supply those accounts with pure keys.
3.From your main acc with unusuals you create listings for all of your 2-5 unusuals with a price of 100keys each, however their market price based on last suggestion is lets 80 keys.
4.You go to each of your other accounts and buy them.
5.You create a new account and create a suggestion, with an evidence of this 5 trades, suggesting that the price should be raised from 80 to 100 keys since 'look 2-5 unusuals were sold for 100keys'
6.Suggestion gets approved (i believe, why wouldnt it be approved since there is evidence).
7.You go back to your accounts with the unusuals, and list them for 90-100keys each.

8.Profit

 

You dont lose anything, you only win, so, the main question is - where is the catch?

Me.

[Hugh Jackman]

28 minutes ago, Sir Spoon The Second said:

if i am not mistaken using alts to buy items to boost the price of an item to net more profit is price manipulation witch is a bannable offense on backpack (i am 95% sure iv seen accounts with bp bans with the statements from mods that can be sum up as price manipulation)

if you don't get banned your rep will plummet making it hard or impossible to sell items on the open market and the only people you'd be able to sell items to are people that don't know your rep, people that don't care or you use mannco to hid its your account so you can buy and sell items exclusively on mannco

its just a matter of when you get caught doing this 

So I believe you are right, this scheme can be deep and longterm, so no mod will find it, because:
1. I can sell my unusuals for higher prices slowly to my other accounts so that it isnt suspicious
2. I can build up other accounts reputation and history just by making other trades overtime so those accounts look legit too
3. This responds to my other question, why some trash antlers sell for 18000 keys, those arent real sales (even if they are, there are sales that are not), no matter if the sales are in keys or real money
4. So by the replies now I understand this scheme is 100% doable, and I am 100% sure that some of users actively abuse it , and nothing is done in that matter, as you mentioned, is a matter of time when you get caught, if you will be ever, currently there doesnt exist any strict mechanism that identifies such price manipulations other than human factors(moderators).

[Sir Spoon The Second]

55 minutes ago, Übermensch_saveTF2 said:

So I believe you are right, this scheme can be deep and longterm, so no mod will find it, because:
1. I can sell my unusuals for higher prices slowly to my other accounts so that it isnt suspicious
2. I can build up other accounts reputation and history just by making other trades overtime so those accounts look legit too
3. This responds to my other question, why some trash antlers sell for 18000 keys, those arent real sales (even if they are, there are sales that are not), no matter if the sales are in keys or real money
4. So by the replies now I understand this scheme is 100% doable, and I am 100% sure that some of users actively abuse it , and nothing is done in that matter, as you mentioned, is a matter of time when you get caught, if you will be ever, currently there doesnt exist any strict mechanism that identifies such price manipulations other than human factors(moderators).

in order to pull this off successfully with many accounts lets say 6 to manipulate the price of a item that on average goes for 75-125 keys you can not just send keys/items to said accounts from your main it has to be in trades with items on both sides that are fair for the item if prices change or some kind of cash trade with different paypal accounts to cover your tracks if asked by admins to help fool them as well as have completely or relatively different personality's and writing styles for each account to throw people off your scent a bit more as well as be able to play same or different games at the same time on a few different accounts to make it more believable that these are in fact different people 

over all this would be so ridiculously complex and difficult that in the end not only did you fool the mods but the whole tf2 economy and would probably cost more money then you would make from the said items we are manipulating here

at this point it would just be better to go to collage and study to get a high paying job because if you can be this dedicated for pixels on a screen and a virtual economy (this economy is a few steps away from being a full on crypto currency) for x amount of years then you have the same dedication to become a lawyer or do some other high paying job where you'd make 8x what you would make manipulating this market

 

some times when its low or high tier item that has a huge price change its because of one more of the fallowing

A. a small amount of them exist and the owners of said items do not want to sell them/ in locked or abandon accounts thus increasing the price

B. the item in more recant days has become more popular for whatever reason thus making them more pricey

C. inflation, just bought a unu Clairvoyance Brass Bucket for 85 keys and made a price suggestion for it, last suggested price for it was 3 years ago at 25 keys and current BO for said item are in the 54.74 keys rn and no sell orders (there is one but its from the person i bought it from and is the same item as the one i have in my inv), a lot of items that now go for a lot of money have for the most part always gone for a lot of money its just there are sales that are so scattered that a prices in the price or range would be soo far apart or chaotic that it just wouldn't make any sense like a 200 keys transaction and a 1200 key transaction bought a day apart for the same item making a range 200-1200 witch is a 1000 key difference

D. more people started playing the game that also want some item(s) that are rare and pricy witch is in more demand as more users want this but there are a limited amount of said item(s) bring the price up in other words supply and demand

 

I'm not saying that is hasn't been done but if it has its most likely been done on the really high tier items or mid range items that are hard to come by but no one really has an interest in except for this person and or group of people as well as the price increase for said item that is a relative amount that would make sense with buying and reselling item and would not come as suspicious in any way as it makes sense for this market

 

I spent way to much time

[Sir Spoon The Second]

Just now, Sir Spoon The Second said:

in order to pull this off successfully with many accounts lets say 6 to manipulate the price of a item that on average goes for 75-125 keys you can not just send keys/items to said accounts from your main it has to be in trades with items on both sides that are fair for the item if prices change or some kind of cash trade with different paypal accounts to cover your tracks if asked by admins to help fool them as well as have completely or relatively different personality's and writing styles for each account to throw people off your scent a bit more as well as be able to play same or different games at the same time on a few different accounts to make it more believable that these are in fact different people 

over all this would be so ridiculously complex and difficult that in the end not only did you fool the mods but the whole tf2 economy and would probably cost more money then you would make from the said items we are manipulating here

at this point it would just be better to go to collage and study to get a high paying job because if you can be this dedicated for pixels on a screen and a virtual economy (this economy is a few steps away from being a full on crypto currency) for x amount of years then you have the same dedication to become a lawyer or do some other high paying job where you'd make 8x what you would make manipulating this market

 

some times when its low or high tier item that has a huge price change its because of one more of the fallowing

A. a small amount of them exist and the owners of said items do not want to sell them/ in locked or abandon accounts thus increasing the price

B. the item in more recant days has become more popular for whatever reason thus making them more pricey

C. inflation, just bought a unu Clairvoyance Brass Bucket for 85 keys and made a price suggestion for it, last suggested price for it was 3 years ago at 25 keys and current BO for said item are in the 54.74 keys rn and no sell orders (there is one but its from the person i bought it from and is the same item as the one i have in my inv), a lot of items that now go for a lot of money have for the most part always gone for a lot of money its just there are sales that are so scattered that a prices in the price or range would be soo far apart or chaotic that it just wouldn't make any sense like a 200 keys transaction and a 1200 key transaction bought a day apart for the same item making a range 200-1200 witch is a 1000 key difference

D. more people started playing the game that also want some item(s) that are rare and pricy witch is in more demand as more users want this but there are a limited amount of said item(s) bring the price up in other words supply and demand

 

I'm not saying that is hasn't been done but if it has its most likely been done on the really high tier items or mid range items that are hard to come by but no one really has an interest in except for this person and or group of people as well as the price increase for said item that is a relative amount that would make sense with buying and reselling item and would not come as suspicious in any way as it makes sense for this market

 

I spent way to much time

this is my POV and opinion on this matter

[Hugh Jackman]

19 minutes ago, Sir Spoon The Second said:

this is my POV and opinion on this matter

Hey thanks on writting this much, I agree with quite everything you've said above, I am jobless now, so I have returned to TF2 and spending my time on it playing/trading, this is why I have so much free time to ask myself such questions, and also I completely agree that such manupulations can be done rarely and dont affect all market price ranges, because it is not just profitable, and could be time consuming. However on low stock, high tier items this could be done and it is done most likely sometimes. Thanks once again for your reply

[STEVE]

1 hour ago, Übermensch_saveTF2 said:

So I believe you are right, this scheme can be deep and longterm, so no mod will find it, because:
1. I can sell my unusuals for higher prices slowly to my other accounts so that it isnt suspicious
2. I can build up other accounts reputation and history just by making other trades overtime so those accounts look legit too
3. This responds to my other question, why some trash antlers sell for 18000 keys, those arent real sales (even if they are, there are sales that are not), no matter if the sales are in keys or real money
4. So by the replies now I understand this scheme is 100% doable, and I am 100% sure that some of users actively abuse it , and nothing is done in that matter, as you mentioned, is a matter of time when you get caught, if you will be ever, currently there doesnt exist any strict mechanism that identifies such price manipulations other than human factors(moderators).

The ammount of time, energy, and raw keys you would need to make this somewhat believable isnt really worth it though. At best it means you might be able to resell the hat for a bit higher but whenever an "outlier" sales happen and the community can recognize it which means that the manipulation is quite limited.

For example, https://backpack.tf/suggestion/65263cdd4f00b749c60b2d97 sale at 800 was called out by the community, which was proven when 3 months later the hat sold for 250

Another example thats only a day old would be https://backpack.tf/suggestion/65b70565dcea5d99770be4d0 where the owner is clearly getting backlash for the absurdly high sale

All in all I'd view the issue as an inevitable yet rarely impactful problem.

[Hugh Jackman]

6 minutes ago, STEVE said:

The ammount of time, energy, and raw keys you would need to make this somewhat believable isnt really worth it though. At best it means you might be able to resell the hat for a bit higher but whenever an "outlier" sales happen and the community can recognize it which means that the manipulation is quite limited.

For example, https://backpack.tf/suggestion/65263cdd4f00b749c60b2d97 sale at 800 was called out by the community, which was proven when 3 months later the hat sold for 250

Another example thats only a day old would be https://backpack.tf/suggestion/65b70565dcea5d99770be4d0 where the owner is clearly getting backlash for the absurdly high sale

All in all I'd view the issue as an inevitable yet rarely impactful problem.

I was quite wondering if such cases were observed, good to see that the voters rise questions too upon such suggestions, thank you for your research.

[Bananas]

Lategum did a version of this where instead of manipulating prices he would build up alts and exit scam with them months later after establishing rep with the alt

 

the idea of using alts to profit with your main isnt unheard of but doing it this way would be too risky and wouldn’t be very profitable like premium scalping or just straight up scamming

 

and even if you get away with manipulating prices, price suggestions are just SUGGESTIONS. Just because an non spelled eerie anger sold for 400+ keys doesn’t mean anyone else wants to pay 400, outside of a bot. There’s a burning question “worth” 1600 keys, NOBODY will pay even close to that if it ever resells. 

the big big sales like bonzo fed and darkblaze trilby and ps antlers are just flex purchases for status among the whales, kinda like gymbros checking out ur muscles at the gym instead of women, price manipulating a hat won’t get you close to those sales 

[Sir Spoon The Second]

31 minutes ago, Übermensch_saveTF2 said:

Hey thanks on writting this much, I agree with quite everything you've said above, I am jobless now, so I have returned to TF2 and spending my time on it playing/trading, this is why I have so much free time to ask myself such questions, and also I completely agree that such manupulations can be done rarely and dont affect all market price ranges, because it is not just profitable, and could be time consuming. However on low stock, high tier items this could be done and it is done most likely sometimes. Thanks once again for your reply

i am also jobless and trading is one of the many things i do to pass time witch kinda explains why i sat down and wrote all that with no breaks..........I really need to touch grass more often

[Esteban]

I mean it's obvious price manipulation but it wouldn't even be in the top 10 most dodgy things traders get away with on this site lol. I mean apparently you can just lie about an item's value, lie about offers you've received, straight up trade with obvious scammers endlessly as long as they're not already marked and repeatedly mislead newbies using buy orders to shark them. what's a bit of price manipulation between friends?

 

Price suggestions aren't that meaningful these days anyway, high tier traders use premium and other databases and info to find out way more about what items are selling for.  Just seems like a lot of effort when you could just lie and say it sold for 100 keys to fool someone who doesn't have the resources to realise they're being ripped off. After all, how can they prove it didn't?

[Bentry Suster]

No, it's such a waste of time. Here, sharks and trading with scam alts are legal, you can use 30 keys shark a item which value 300 keys, or legal to buy cheap halloween effects from scammer alts, why risk being blocked for suggestions manipulation?

[absalonn]

for items like that iam psure there will already be many indate sales, and if there is not then there will be in the time the suggestion is open, which i assume if the mods seen smthn fishy they would give the suggestion its time, it would also be so damn easy to spot, and if they actually put the effort to make it hard to spot its not even worth it there will be more other normal sales and that will be a high end at best, wth that being said bp price inceasing by 10 keys wont magically increase demand or make people actually willing to pay that

[FP jh34ghu43gu]

Why use alts to price manipulate, just buy up 40/180 of a collector's item and the price naturally increases to stupid levels.

[eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee]

11 hours ago, Übermensch_saveTF2 said:

Hi there, so my question is, what stops anyone from manipulating the low-supply item, by owning multiple of these items, and selling those item for higher prices to themselves?
Case example: 
1.You own 2-5 same unusuals, the total supply is 100-200.
2.You create other accounts (2-5 accounts), supply those accounts with pure keys.
3.From your main acc with unusuals you create listings for all of your 2-5 unusuals with a price of 100keys each, however their market price based on last suggestion is lets 80 keys.
4.You go to each of your other accounts and buy them.
5.You create a new account and create a suggestion, with an evidence of this 5 trades, suggesting that the price should be raised from 80 to 100 keys since 'look 2-5 unusuals were sold for 100keys'
6.Suggestion gets approved (i believe, why wouldnt it be approved since there is evidence).
7.You go back to your accounts with the unusuals, and list them for 90-100keys each.

8.Profit

 

You dont lose anything, you only win, so, the main question is - where is the catch?

morals and if the item in question is unpopular or undesirable your efforts are pretty much in vain