Killstreak support poll

[fisk]

We've actually been able to support community pricing for killstreakers for some time. But it's not done because of a concern. The concern is that pricing on a sheen and killstreaker basis would be unfeasible for a few reasons:

 

• the technical limitations, as we store prices based on the uniqueness of item names (with the exception of items with particle effects, where the quality is replaced with the effect name). We don't want to add anymore needless complexity there, and:
• the sheer number of additional combinations per weapon (1 standard killstreak + 7 specialised killstreak + 49 professional killstreak = 57 combinations)
• weapons with sheens/killstreakers not being as relevant as hats with particle effects

 

Now if we only supported pricing based on the killstreak tier (Professional, Specialized and Standard), that would be a lot simpler and it could be enabled as soon as possible. Some people in Discord seemed to be fine with this idea, however I'm still looking for some more input on how we should handle this. If people consider a specific sheen/ks combo on an item as being more valuable, then perhaps it should be treated with the same scrutiny as Max Heads with specific levels, and so on.

 

Adding full support for pricing every sheen/killstreaker is not on the table as we are not ready to support it and we would have to break a few things to get it working. Honestly, I don't think it is worth the effort to try considering what the end result will be.

 

This has been brought up partially because our new price source is much less lenient on items which do not get sold very often. I don't like the idea of taking what could be a week-old SCM price for granted, so it would be nice to fill the gap for when a market price cannot be determined.

 

Please leave your comments, I'm reading them.

[SmokE]

I will support this, as I already mentioned this on discord 

 

The problem about the combo can be solved by taking a common trading point  as we do so for other Unique and Strange cosmetics and items.

PRO KS weapons 

IF Fire Horns Team Shine sells for 15 keys, hypno beam Sells for 8 keys everything else sells for 9-10 keys 
then we can have a range between 9 and 10 looking at common trading point ignoring those other sales as outliners

Also this will be easier now since there are lots of bots now, bots dont know to read the sheen or KS effect so they just sell items at set prices 

Spec KS weapons 
Only TeamShine will be sold for higher price by users everything else gets sold in the same price range

but then again bots dont see the sheen 

KS weapons

This will be easy No Sheen no KS effects so it can be priced like regular items 

 

All items with strange parts, spells etc sales (if very high) can also be ignored as an outliner, if it does not fall under the common trading point range

Bringing this into play will open up over idk 5000 ? maybe more items to price (Unique, Strange Vintage Genuine Normal) quality items with all 3 KS tires 
It will be a huge task to get them all priced but it is possible with all the current overflowing no: of price suggesters we have on the website now

We can slowly price everything day by day 

This is just my opinion many of you may be against it many of u may love it. I hope this happens

 

- Smoke

[Julia]

No, there's an enormous amount of different killstreak items and many of the prices will become neglected. It may end up being like pricing for Strangifiers where prices are often neglected for some time [1] [2] [3]. Pricing items in metal also will shift the value of that item over time as keys change in price, even if its SCM price remains relatively stable. SCM works fairly well for pricing most common killstreak items. The items that would benefit most from suggestion pricing are more rare items which are not frequently sold or listed. Pricing killstreak items could help determine outliers in SCM pricing, but pricing would not work as an accurate up-to-date source for most killstreak items.

[Axle Change]

I think I made my position clear enough in discord chat. The reality is that SCM pricing over inflates almost all killstreaks (and items in general) because it does not account for the SCM tax and other various reasons.

I.e. 

https://backpack.tf/stats/Strange/Australium Professional Killstreak Knife/Tradable/Craftable

https://backpack.tf/stats/Strange/Australium Professional Killstreak Rocket Launcher/Tradable/Craftable

There is a ~5 key discrepancy in each of these, and that is when it's not awful and also due to very recent changes in SCM pricing.

 

39 minutes ago, Julia said:

Pricing items in metal also will shift the value of that item over time as keys change in price, even if its SCM price remains relatively stable.

Most killstreaks would not be affected by this because they are over a keys worth of value. If it is that much of a problem they could just do thresholds similar to skins.

 

41 minutes ago, Julia said:

It may end up being like pricing for Strangifiers where prices are often neglected for some time [1] [2] [3].

The clear difference here is quantity. There 0 of each of those strangifiers on SCM and in classifieds from what I can tell. For most weapons there are a sizable amount of killstreaked weapons.

 

43 minutes ago, Julia said:

Pricing killstreak items could help determine outliers in SCM pricing, but pricing would not work as an accurate up-to-date source for most killstreak items.

I've traded killstreaks for ~3 years, and from that experience the prices have not changed drastically. While it is true that prices do shift, SCM pricing has been reliably inaccurate for pretty much as long as I've been trading because of price inflation.

[iTrade ™]

I'm in favour of this proposed change. It would make trading killstreak items much more interesting. 

Special combos on certain Pro KS weapons can be treated the same as some levels on specific max heads. 

[Xergoyf]

Definitely support this. SCM has always inflated stuff (sometimes to ridiculous levels) and this would fix most of the problems. I have traded for over a year now and have rarely noticed much of a difference between killstreakers. The problem of inflated prices is much much much bigger of a deal than slight differences in killstreaks. Even if prices shift due to ref changes or due to being neglected Im sure the prices will still be more accurate than scm pricing as of current.

 

Its worth mentioning that the SCM is a completely different market from the normal item market, and rarely gives the value of the classifieds sellers.  

 

You honestly dont know how many trades I have lost due to people overvaluing Killstreaked Australiums

[Julia]

37 minutes ago, Axle Change said:

I think I made my position clear enough in discord chat. The reality is that SCM pricing over inflates almost all killstreaks (and items in general) because it does not account for the SCM tax and other various reasons.

I.e. 

https://backpack.tf/stats/Strange/Australium Professional Killstreak Knife/Tradable/Craftable

https://backpack.tf/stats/Strange/Australium Professional Killstreak Rocket Launcher/Tradable/Craftable

There is a ~5 key discrepancy in each of these, and that is when it's not awful and also due to very recent changes in SCM pricing.

 

Most killstreaks would not be affected by this because they are over a keys worth of value. If it is that much of a problem they could just do thresholds similar to skins.

 

The clear difference here is quantity. There 0 of each of those strangifiers on SCM and in classifieds from what I can tell. For most weapons there are a sizable amount of killstreaked weapons.

 

I've traded killstreaks for ~3 years, and from that experience the prices have not changed drastically. While it is true that prices do shift, SCM pricing has been reliably inaccurate for pretty much as long as I've been trading because of price inflation.

Depends how you use the prices. As a seller, I almost always remove 15% to account for the fee to get an accurate value, since if I sold the item on the SCM, that's what I'd be getting out of it. I prefer using classifieds to price higher-valued items, even if the item has been priced, but that's just my personal preference.

 

Many of the killstreak items (not kits or Australiums) I've handled were worth below a key. About 40% of them. 

 

The strangifiers I showed all have listings available if you check the Steam Market. Pretty Boy's Pocket Pistol has a fairly old price but is very common, has only been updated once a year, and currently has a very inaccurate price being valued at less than half of what it should be valued at. There are many Strangifiers with prices that are very outdated.

[Scott Bakula]

What if instead of a direct conversion, we just update the items that currently use the SCM for pricing to automatically deduct the 15% Valve tax?

 

Or perhaps have it so they can be priced like any other items, but if not updated after so long, revert back to following the SCM?

[Axle Change]

1 hour ago, Julia said:

Depends how you use the prices. As a seller, I almost always remove 15% to account for the fee to get an accurate value, since if I sold the item on the SCM, that's what I'd be getting out of it. I prefer using classifieds to price higher-valued items, even if the item has been priced, but that's just my personal preference.

 

Many of the killstreak items (not kits or Australiums) I've handled were worth below a key. About 40% of them. 

 

The strangifiers I showed all have listings available if you check the Steam Market. Pretty Boy's Pocket Pistol has a fairly old price but is very common, has only been updated once a year, and currently has a very inaccurate price being valued at less than half of what it should be valued at. There are many Strangifiers with prices that are very outdated.

I guess in terms of price I always think about it strictly in terms of pure value for the seller rather than the buyer. It's not about checking classifieds for me because I do that for every item regardless of killstreaks. However, I feel like this goes for both buying and selling, because the buyer is unlikely to pay over that amount also.

 

In terms of strangifiers, there is a clear difference in the market between SCM and bp.tf. For strangifiers the backpack/trading market seems almost nonexistent due to searching problems, etc. but there exists a clear market for killstreaked items on bp.tf. Part of the reason strangifiers are probably so infrequently updated is because so few actual trades for them occur, as shown by the lack of classifieds whereas most killstreaked items have an active market currently.

[fisk]

Since there have been more yeah's than no's so far, we'll probably end up enabling this soon.  Going to wait for the poll to close.

[Happysedits]

i agree,  has its upsides and downsides, but more upsides

[OGSemper]

my strange pro ks festive huntsman went from ~14 keys to 5.2 keys(has parts) and it confused me pretty hard cause my bp went down in value by 300+ refined and was totally unexpected and unwarned.

 

i don't know if that supports inflation or denies it, cause at that point would i base the value of the huntsman off of what bp.tf says which is 5.2 keys? or ~14 keys on scm?

 

i went and looked at the SCM and one sold for $34.24 the 29th.

 

I just want my e-peen fixed.

[SmokE]

no worries that was a bug possibly 

ur huntsman showed Strange huntsman value instead of pro ks version as there was a slight change in how the data is pulled from scm 
If no sales on item happen on SCM  in the past 72hrs the items price will drop to 0 on bp.tf (in ur case it had a base price of 5.2keys on strange version so it showed that) 
I think this is what happened 

[MeFigaYoma]

8 hours ago, « SɱokEy » said:

no worries that was a bug possibly 

ur huntsman showed Strange huntsman value instead of pro ks version as there was a slight change in how the data is pulled from scm 
If no sales on item happen on SCM  in the past 72hrs the items price will drop to 0 on bp.tf (in ur case it had a base price of 5.2keys on strange version so it showed that) 
I think this is what happened 

Yes, that's exactly what happened. The problem with the current (new) system is that that's not a bug, but an intended feature.

[OGSemper]

4 hours ago, MeFigaYoma said:

Yes, that's exactly what happened. The problem with the current (new) system is that that's not a bug, but an intended feature.

 

I dont like that feature, the tf2 SCM is nowhere near as popular as CSGO or Dota's SCM, basing the price off of a certain item that might never sell because it's so random shouldn't dictate the price of my or anyones item.

 

Most ProKS items rarely sell consistently on the SCM cause theres just so many varients of each item it wouldn't make sense to price them based off of a sale that happened in the past 72hrs, what if that item sold in the past 72hrs was a quicksell?

 

Also a fine example of how this is a problem is most skinned weapons are thrown onto the market at whatever price and they just sit there cause theres no real price for them in refined metal or keys.(people could try to price skinned weapons but idk thats alot of work)

 

Real Example: my GF's Strange FN ProKS Festive Night Owl Sniper Rifle went from being 18 keys(before any changes were implemented) to 6 keys(after recent changes) to 3.5 keys(new proposed changes) and she is very upset because people keep lowballing her and telling her it isnt worth shit. It's the same scenario for my huntsman except im not selling it.

[SmokE]

19 hours ago, Points of Authority said:

 

I dont like that feature, the tf2 SCM is nowhere near as popular as CSGO or Dota's SCM, basing the price off of a certain item that might never sell because it's so random shouldn't dictate the price of my or anyones item.

 

Most ProKS items rarely sell consistently on the SCM cause theres just so many varients of each item it wouldn't make sense to price them based off of a sale that happened in the past 72hrs, what if that item sold in the past 72hrs was a quicksell?

 

Also a fine example of how this is a problem is most skinned weapons are thrown onto the market at whatever price and they just sit there cause theres no real price for them in refined metal or keys.(people could try to price skinned weapons but idk thats alot of work)

 

Real Example: my GF's Strange FN ProKS Festive Night Owl Sniper Rifle went from being 18 keys(before any changes were implemented) to 6 keys(after recent changes) to 3.5 keys(new proposed changes) and she is very upset because people keep lowballing her and telling her it isnt worth shit. It's the same scenario for my huntsman except im not selling it.

yes if u qs an item that will be the items new price till another sale happens

so yes this is needed lets price all ks tires

I can give u another example 
My Strange PRO ks Factory new Shell shocker RL went from 64 keys to 0 as no sales I got it for 80 long back (I really dont mind the price as i dont plan on selling it) but yeah so many things are affected by this 

As u mentioned when items drop value like this based on quick sells also (to scm buy orders) it will destroy an item 
My backpack keeps going up and down everyday (very high changes)
when it was small changes before

[OGSemper]

2 hours ago, « SɱokEy » said:

yes if u qs an item that will be the items new price till another sale happens

so yes this is needed lets price all ks tires

I can give u another example 
My Strange PRO ks Factory new Shell shocker RL went from 64 keys to 0 as no sales I got it for 80 long back (I really dont mind the price as i dont plan on selling it) but yeah so many things are affected by this 

As u mentioned when items drop value like this based on quick sells also (to scm buy orders) it will destroy an item 
My backpack keeps going up and down everyday (very high changes)
when it was small changes before

 

I can imagine a bp like yours and anyones bigger than 10k refined take huge hits and their bps are devastated by this. For me im happy with a 600 ref bp

[XenSakura]

I was about to make a post ranting about this until i saw this post. Great job for trying to add prices to killstreak kits... However, there's another issue i want to rant about.

WHY the HECC are Some killstreak kits hilariously overpriced?
The max they should be is 20 keys if they're not the glitched kind of killstreak kit.

It's ridiculous when the kit costs more then the actual australium.

[SmokE]

8 hours ago, Mew2! said:

I was about to make a post ranting about this until i saw this post. Great job for trying to add prices to killstreak kits... However, there's another issue i want to rant about.

WHY the HECC are Some killstreak kits hilariously overpriced?
The max they should be is 20 keys if they're not the glitched kind of killstreak kit.

It's ridiculous when the kit costs more then the actual australium.

5

I would pay more than 20 keys for FH TS. 
and this thread is about pricing ks weapons and not the kits itself idk maybe that too hmm. 

[Lord_gamer_17]

On 9/2/2017 at 8:59 PM, Points of Authority said:

Real Example: my GF's Strange FN ProKS Festive Night Owl Sniper Rifle went from being 18 keys(before any changes were implemented) to 6 keys(after recent changes) to 3.5 keys(new proposed changes) and she is very upset because people keep lowballing her and telling her it isnt worth shit. It's the same scenario for my huntsman except im not selling it.

Well, the major problem with all the reskins is that there is simply too many variants. Simply said, their price depends on the following:

1. Strange or not?
2. Unusual? Which particle attached?
3. Factory new or screwed by wear?
4. Festivized or not?
5. Reskin rarity and appearance
6. Additions like killstreak kits, Strange parts, and such other extensions to weapons.

Of just 1 Mercenary grade or better reskin, you get an insane dozens of variants, and telling, what is the reskins true value, is simply impossible. On top of that, visual apearance makes all buyers give it a differen Value. Giving a value to a killstreak reskin would be very inaccyrate even after this. Due to the amount of variants, I'd rather not create ANY price suggestions for Killstreak reskins, as it would only give a wrong image of price.

 

When it comes to regular killstreak non-reskin items, we could instead try to value the weapon's Sheen+killstreaker combo based on which combo (usually) sells the highest (Fire Hors+Team Shine) and which combo sells the lowest (Cerebral discharge) and trying to put our combo somewhere between these 2. Now the value range in suggestions could use the highly priced and lowly priced combo as a price, that would be displayed, as long as one of these 2 price edges dont go too low or too high. It may not be too accurate, but it might also work.

[JNeb900ThePeril]

2 hours ago, Lord_gamer_17 said:

Well, the major problem with all the reskins is that there is simply too many variants. Simply said, their price depends on the following:

1. Strange or not?
2. Unusual? Which particle attached?
3. Factory new or screwed by wear?
4. Festivized or not?
5. Reskin rarity and appearance
6. Additions like killstreak kits, Strange parts, and such other extensions to weapons.

Of just 1 Mercenary grade or better reskin, you get an insane dozens of variants, and telling, what is the reskins true value, is simply impossible. On top of that, visual apearance makes all buyers give it a differen Value. Giving a value to a killstreak reskin would be very inaccyrate even after this. Due to the amount of variants, I'd rather not create ANY price suggestions for Killstreak reskins, as it would only give a wrong image of price.

 

When it comes to regular killstreak non-reskin items, we could instead try to value the weapon's Sheen+killstreaker combo based on which combo (usually) sells the highest (Fire Hors+Team Shine) and which combo sells the lowest (Cerebral discharge) and trying to put our combo somewhere between these 2. Now the value range in suggestions could use the highly priced and lowly priced combo as a price, that would be displayed, as long as one of these 2 price edges dont go too low or too high. It may not be too accurate, but it might also work.

Why do you have notes on your entire bp

[Lord_gamer_17]

cuz why not. But let's not get off the track.

[beachdog]

i just wish it was easier to find specific killstreak kits in classifieds. like if i want to find a specialized bottle kit. i have to search through pages in the middle of the classified because it's not specifically high tier or low tier in terms of pricing killstreak kits. it's easy when it's a kit that's gonna be near the highest or lowest range of kits, like looking for a scattergun kit or a GRU kit.