Is it wrong?

[XenSakura]

Is it wrong to make the price of your unusual larger? Because another person gave me -1 trust for it. Price inflation shouldn't be bad, especially when I have evidence to support my price suggestions.

[fluffyy]

no but price manipulation is wrong

[XenSakura]

no but price manipulation is wrong

Ohk... But still what if I have proof for ot

[ksolis01]

Ohk... But still what if I have proof for ot

If it is a valid suggestion with proof, it is fine. Just make sure you include all the sales and back it up. Report the trust too.

[Pampick]

Seller for 367$ (around 175 keys) on marketplace https://marketplace.tf/items/30743;5;u9;strange. He cant Sell it since november, you can check item history http://backpack.tf/item/4687612169

400 keys is obviously high for this unusual. Even 245 is too high due to the huge unsold

[hugh]

I am the user in question.

 

Here is the conversation - https://pastebin.com/WpyUknFq

Thank you to Shawn for informing me of this thread

[Vibri]

Yes, it is wrong and looking at the evidence provided, you have been a massive c*nt to this other guy. I would be surprised if you didn't get banned for this

[Gent♥]

I am the user in question.

 

Here is the conversation - https://pastebin.com/WpyUknFq

 

Thank you to Shawn for informing me of this thread

 

Yeah... that actually IS manipulation, I've seen people banned for this before.

 

Why don't I go see what I can do about the Peak price huh?..

[Discovery]

If you have evidence that it should in fact have a price raise, then no, it's not wrong. However, that is not the case here. You clearly wanted the price of your hat to raise without any sort of basis other than your opinion.

 

I'm not so sure about the negative rating, though. As dick-ish as your move was, price manipulation technically does not fall under what can be used as a basis for submitting negative ratings. imo it should be, though.

 

[hugh]

This one is for the mods' discretion of course, I thought it was good grounds for 'other fraudent activities'. As I noted, the situation with the BMOCs, that was largely abhorred by the community. I don't see why this would be any different.

 

One could argue that he did not in fact commit to price fixing, however, I would argue in response - the only reason he did not successfully price fix was because I would not allow it.

[hugh]

He's further defaced my profile. Seriously man, the more you do this, the less we'll take you seriously. Mind you, if you wish to make my inventory worthless, you'll need to start with suggesting my unusuals down, for which there at least 150 of. This tirade of yours might get you banned so maybe you should start getting some suggestions in soon.

 

http://m.imgur.com/jXImHIz

 

Mew2 | trade.tf 23 minutes ago Delete

-rep too retarded to understand English and thinks I am trying to scam people when I am just a trader trying to make prices correct. You will have a lot of trouble dealing with this guy as well.

 

Mew2 | trade.tf 4 hours ago Delete

Don't screw with me I have several pieces of evidence that can make your inventory worthless.

 

Mew2 | trade.tf 5 hours ago Delete

I was just wondering why we shouldn't make the price larger. Retard.

 

Mew2 | trade.tf 5 hours ago Delete

I only asked whether you would do it. I wasn't trying to fix the price if you haven't realized. Maybe you are too retarded to understand the word SHOULDN'T WE

[SpotlightR]

He's further defaced my profile. Seriously man, the more you do this, the less we'll take you seriously. Mind you, if you wish to make my inventory worthless, you'll need to start with suggesting my unusuals down, for which there at least 150 of. This tirade of yours might get you banned so maybe you should start getting some suggestions in soon.

 

http://m.imgur.com/jXImHIz

 

Mew2 | trade.tf 23 minutes ago Delete

-rep too retarded to understand English and thinks I am trying to scam people when I am just a trader trying to make prices correct. You will have a lot of trouble dealing with this guy as well.

 

Mew2 | trade.tf 4 hours ago Delete

Don't screw with me I have several pieces of evidence that can make your inventory worthless.

 

Mew2 | trade.tf 5 hours ago Delete

I was just wondering why we shouldn't make the price larger. Retard.

 

Mew2 | trade.tf 5 hours ago Delete

I only asked whether you would do it. I wasn't trying to fix the price if you haven't realized. Maybe you are too retarded to understand the word SHOULDN'T WE

 

Mew2 | trade.tf: I am not retarded unlike everyone else

 

hah.

[hugh]

As an actual response to your question/insult:

 

"Mew2 | trade.tf 5 hours ago Delete
I was just wondering why we shouldn't make the price larger. Retard."

 

It's umm.. kind of obvious isn't it? Not only did I identify this as price manipulation/fixing, I also described what it was multiple times, I even dot pointed why it is unethical. I answered your question about Strange Unusuals to the best of my ability. You consulted other people also who responded likewise 'Yes, this is price fixing/manipulation.' To make it dead obvious, No, we should not collaborate to 'make the price larger' because it is unethical.

 

"Mew2 | trade.tf 23 minutes ago Delete
-rep too retarded to understand English and thinks I am trying to scam people when I am just a trader trying to make prices correct. You will have a lot of trouble dealing with this guy as well."

 

I mean, at this point, when you have the whole thing explained to you multiple times by multiple different unbiased people, I don't know what else to say. Are you sure it is me who is 'too retarded to understand English'?

[unstopaBULLY]

 

 

Mew2 | trade.tf: I am not retarded unlike everyone else

>implying I'm retarded (Oh and these guys too, they aren't retarded. For the most part anyway.)

 

On a more serious note, I think this IS wrong, and I do think it is a punishable offense. Also, it's my firm belief that as traders, we should represent the community in a positive light, and defacing someone's profile and price manipulation shoudn't be taken lightly. It's disappointing to me to see stuff like this happen, and I hope the mods will punish Mew2 appropriately. I understand you may think your hat is worth more, but the rules of this site clearly state that you must have sufficient evidence and proof to raise/lower a hat's price. Using these rules and guidelines, the "Evidence" you supplied is clearly not sufficient, and so it should be no surprise that your attempt to raise the price of your hat would be declined.

[XenSakura]

>implying I'm retarded (Oh and these guys too, they aren't retarded. For the most part anyway.)

 

On a more serious note, I think this IS wrong, and I do think it is a punishable offense. Also, it's my firm belief that as traders, we should represent the community in a positive light, and defacing someone's profile and price manipulation shoudn't be taken lightly. It's disappointing to me to see stuff like this happen, and I hope the mods will punish Mew2 appropriately. I understand you may think your hat is worth more, but the rules of this site clearly state that you must have sufficient evidence and proof to raise/lower a hat's price. Using these rules and guidelines, the "Evidence" you supplied is clearly not sufficient, and so it should be no surprise that your attempt to raise the price of your hat would be declined.

I do have sufficient evidence.

[hugh]

Please show us the evidence here: https://backpack.tf/suggestion/592d2231c4404519534db58b#comment-592d3bdec440452e662bbe0a

 

I looked at the sales of the hat myself in the last 3 months: there are only two: yours, and mine. Yours for 180 pure, and mine for 180 in a hat.

[XenSakura]

Please show us the evidence here: https://backpack.tf/suggestion/592d2231c4404519534db58b#comment-592d3bdec440452e662bbe0a

 

I looked at the sales of the hat myself in the last 3 months: there are only two: yours, and mine. Yours for 180 pure, and mine for 180 in a hat.

Ok we have to come to an end. This has gone way too far. Let's settle this shall we?

[hugh]

Yes please, I thought this should have stopped way way earlier.

[ѕιи]

Yes it is wrong to do what you did. Considering you didn't know that, this would not have been that big of a deal. However, you just ridiculed him which made you look like a dickhead. Next time you have a question for something of such severity, ask instead of making fun of people. Backpack.tf has a discord.

[XenSakura]

Yes please, I thought this should have stopped way way earlier.

She nce you said we could price it atn180 keys let's do that then.

[Gren]

At the end of the day, this whole thing was a waste of energy.  Even if you ended up colluding on the price (*wags finger), there was only a very small chance someone would have actually paid 400 (most likely would have just stagnated in your inventory until you lost patience).  Anyone who's ever been the only seller on the market knows that this exclusivity won't get you a 100% price increase (there are rare exceptions), so I'm not sure why it would have been different with 2 hats on the market.  

 

Then there's using common sense when it comes to pricing: This is a GE all-class hat that was created along with the wave of new all-class hats last year. Not even a lot of old all-class hats (e.g. Bomber, Muffs, etc.) can get anywhere close to 400 for GE, and the Peak isn't - and will never be - in KE or Crone's tier.  180 keys sounds like a reasonable price.

[Teeny Tiny Cat]

Alright, we've discussed this thoroughly and decided to remove the negative trust. "Price manipulation" as a term has several meanings. One is faking trades or offers on suggestions on this site to make potential buyers of your hat think it's worth more than it is - this is bannable, but is not what happened here. Another meaning is trying to manipulate the market itself; an example would be buying up every max's head for sale and relisting all of them for 30 keys. This is more like what the accused was trying to do here, and while the ethics are debatable, it is not a bannable offense on this site. He wasn't trying to lie to buyers, he was just trying to change the market he was selling in. That's how a free market economy works. If you don't want to raise your hat you can just say no and move on.

 

We're also not moderating rude comments made on steam here. If he's annoying you, block him and move on.

[hugh]

Thank you for your collective response, I respect your decision. I will still adhere to my own ethics that collusion between sellers to engage in price fixing is wrong, and I will certainly not engage in it even if others do. It's good to know the boundaries of what is right and wrong here though, and I'm glad this situation has cleared that up.

 

In reference to steam profile comments, I blocked him after he put out a second set of comments, and I've notified him of such.

 

Edit - Wait, just to clarify, does this mean any user can contact other owners of identical hats, and ask if they would be willing to jack up the prices the hats they mutually own, for mutual gain?

[Gent♥]

Edit - Wait, just to clarify, does this mean any user can contact other owners of identical hats, and ask if they would be willing to jack up the prices the hats they mutually own, for mutual gain?

 

It probably does, because as Gren pointed out, it's very unlikely to actually work.

I imagine this is the sort of thing that happens more than we like to think it does - since its all going on entirely in private, which is unfortunate.

However I like to think backpack.tf is a good counter to that sort of shady dealings. Even if EVERY owner was selling for 400, if the bp.tf price is 180 NOBODY is going to pay that.

[hugh]

After having spoken to moderator Wolfilicious about the finer elements on the rules on price fixing, I'd like to publicly apologise to Mew2 for my actions. I am sorry, you were right and I was wrong. I really sincerely apologise for any distress I caused you.

Thank you to the many moderators who helped clear up this issue, especially Wolfilicious and Teeny.

 

For anyone who is interested in the finer elements on price fixing: http://imgur.com/a/USo94

 

TL;DR: At backpack.tf, query offences in any way related to price fixing are not bannable. This includes soliciting it, actually doing it, mediating and facilitating it etc. The same cannot be said about TF2 Outpost, but that platform is not for discussion here.

 

In regards to me, I have a few hats myself, but please do not ask me to price fix - I will stilll refuse to do it, I just cannot, even if allowed in the rules.