''Permabans for buying unusuals from scammers'' rule discussion

[Happysedits]

So we had a little discussion about this in the status updates

http://forums.backpack.tf/index.php?/statuses/user/17025-happysedits/?status_id=428708

http://forums.backpack.tf/index.php?/statuses/user/5300-zcrab/?status_id=428716

Some people agree with this being fair, some don't, some have a different opinion, some people wanna change it, some don't.

[fluffyy]

I think it's reasonable. Since steamrep changed their policies they said they try to educate and not punish or something, so I'd assume the punishment would vary heavily if you were to compare say a brand new trader who wouldn't know any better to a seasoned one

 

And for seasoned traders, I'd say it's for the better. Who is to say the items you are getting weren't hijacked or obtained illegally with a stolen card? There is a large possibility valve could trade ban you

[Woifi The Viking]

Here are our rules: http://forums.backpack.tf/index.php?/topic/29027-guide-for-background-checks/

Also with alot of information.

 

Here are the ban lenghts:

If a trader unknowingly fails to meet these expectations, bans will be issued as follows:

(1) First offense - 3 days to 1 week depending on the severity of the action
(2) Second offense - 2 weeks to 2 months depending on the severity of the action
(3) Third offense - permanent ban (may be appealed after 6 months)
 
If a trader knowingly fails to meet these expectations and is found to intentionally trade with scammers, the ban will instantly be a permanent one.

 

Checking a users reputation takes ~20 seconds when I'm on pc, and maybe 1-2 minutes when I'm on mobile.

[Bobsplosion]

https://rep.tf/

 

30 seconds at most.

[Toughsox]

The whole idea of the 1st time temp ban is to educate a person. When you make your appeal (as most innocent people do) this is explained to them and they are told how to avoid it in the future. Sadly, in many cases, the person doesn't care because its all about the profits. 

 

Those that care about how they trade learn and avoid it to the best of their ability. Those that only care about the profits deserve being banned permanently. 

 

As has been said here already, takes a whole 30 seconds to check so there are no excuses once you know its your responsibility to do so. 

[Professional Map Painter]

https://rep.tf/

 

30 seconds at most.

http://bazaar.tf/score is also useful for checking accounts

[Bodomi #Ms. Lady]

It takes next to no effort to check who you're trading with.

If you don't check who you trade with you're a bad trader.

 

The rule is fine IMO.

 

To lessen the time of 20 seconds it takes to look someone up on SteamRep/rep.tf then you can use Julias "Steam Trade Offer Links" extension - https://github.com/juliarose/steam-trade-offer-links

 

Steam Inventory Helper also adds links SteamRep and adds information if they're banned etc... on peoples Steam profiles - https://goo.gl/Y5HHki

Here's what it looks like: http://i.imgur.com/PUrJGJB.png http://i.imgur.com/5kmVOx3.png

 

 

Get over yourself is what I say.

It takes no effort to check someone, it takes next to no time and it's common fucking sense to check who you're trading with.

[Beaser]

I was thinking about traders who commonly trade with scammers should get their warnings, while traders who do it rarely should be left alone, but be warned in a certain way (like a reminder in their profile or some shit). Also if there is a trader who really wants a rare hat (like a 1 of 1 or 2 or 3 in the world hat, and no one is selling it) from a scammer, he should be also left alone. Idk based on my opinions.

[Zcrab]

The biggest problem I have with the rule is that even if the items you buy are not scammed, you still get banned for trading with them. Where is the sense in that?

 

Also if you really want to get rid of scammers, how come there is not a dedicated page on the front of bp.tf for every known scamming method?

 

Regarding the time issue, it's not that it takes too much time to check, but if you do 20+ trades a day and have to check every single one, almost everyone will stop checking every person since 99/100 times they are not scammers.

[polar]

if you do 20+ trades a day and have to check every single one, almost everyone will stop checking every person since 99/100 times they are not scammers.

 

We only require checks on trades 15+ keys in value.

[Apo]

I mostly agree with the rule. However, I wouldn't blame someone for making smaller trades (especially on mobile).
For me, this rule makes trading on mobile impossible. I don't want to spend 3 minutes checking someone's rep for a 40 key trade. (that has no risk)

I mainly don't​ trade on mobile because it takes too long to check rep, and adding large amounts of items sucks balls.
Generally if someone buys a hat or item from me, they're not a scammer, so checking rep is usually not needed.
However, if they're trying to qs me a hat or item, there's a higher chance of them being a scammer, so I almost always check.

Isn't the spirit of the rule to help stop scammers from making a profit?
I agree with that, but I dont like how it inconveniences legit traders. 3 minutes checking rep, when someone offers 30 keys on my 29 key hat (mobile)? That can often times mean a lost trade, as they've probably sent offers out for other items/hats with those keys, and might buy something else instead.

I don't really know of any way to stop it from inconveniencing legit traders without making it easier for scammers though.
I support the rule.

--

@Zcrab, I agree that it would sort of make sense to make it only off limits to trade for the scammed items, but, often times it is hard or almost impossible to see if the item was scammed. You also run into the issue of tracking scammed items, which is a lot harder than tracking users. If someone has 50 unusuals and 1 is scammed, you can pull up their Bptf and they won't be banned.. it's a lot easier to miss a warning for 1 item that's off limits, than it is to miss a warning for 1 account that is entirely off limits.

[Toughsox]

The biggest problem I have with the rule is that even if the items you buy are not scammed, you still get banned for trading with them. Where is the sense in that?

 

 

With all due respect......  what type of currency do you think the scammers used to obtain the items that were not scammed?  Most likely, they laundered the stolen items for pure or their items and then trade those away for what I suppose you mean items that are not scammed. 

Bottom line is, they are scammers and used stolen items to get their clean items, and THATS why the rules are fine the way they are and why people should not be allowed to trade with them. 

[Axle Change]

With all due respect......  what type of currency do you think the scammers used to obtain the items that were not scammed?  Most likely, they laundered the stolen items for pure or their items and then trade those away for what I suppose you mean items that are not scammed. 

Bottom line is, they are scammers and used stolen items to get their clean items, and THATS why the rules are fine the way they are and why people should not be allowed to trade with them.

I feel like the issue with this rationale is that it assumes they won't get their items offloaded anyway. They'll just sell them on SCM, make an alt, etc. Banning traders for single trades with scammers is ultimately more harmful then beneficial imho. Obviously consistently fencing, etc. is a different issue but the whole ban on single trades mentality is pretty bad.

[Apo]

I feel like the issue with this rationale is that it assumes they won't get their items offloaded anyway. They'll just sell them on SCM, make an alt, etc. Banning traders for single trades with scammers is ultimately more harmful then beneficial imho. Obviously consistently fencing, etc. is a different issue but the whole ban on single trades mentality is pretty bad.

A middle ground would be worse imo, because there would be inconsistencies in bans, which would lead to outrage.

It would also be way harder to enforce.

[Diamond jozu]

well the main reason why we shouldnt trade with them is becaause they are scammers.they steal people's item and its not nice.since steam rarely gives trade ban or even take action,steamrep or bp.tf stepped in and this is a good way to punish them

[Vittoo]

Just because we are on topic, why is scrap.tf allowed to laundry stolen unusuals with no punishment?

[JayTuut]

I think its kinda stupid, i dont check unless they have no friends, no hours or just look fishy in general (aka payign too much or so), ive never traded unusuals or items with scammers above 15+ keys, so i mean *shrug* i used to check all the time back in the day but it takes so long, get their profile, go to rep.tf, takes around ~ 2 minutes with my internet......

 

But then again i barely trade anymore

[S T E W]

Just because we are on topic, why is scrap.tf allowed to laundry stolen unusuals with no punishment?

I don't know either. I owned a bot.tf bot for 2 months, and they automatically deny trades with marked scammers. Why can't scrap.tf implement the same? 

[ksolis01]

I don't know either. I owned a bot.tf bot for 2 months, and they automatically deny trades with marked scammers. Why can't scrap.tf implement the same?

 

I mentioned this before, aka my "launder.tf" post though I referred to the auctions. The fact that they ignored two reports on auctions of laundered unusuals which included one I wrote really pissed me off. I know they use an automated system to prevent users with steamrep bans, but if users are reporting that users are laundering unusuals, it might be worth a manual look instead of hiding behind your automated system. I will concede that the launder I reported was eventually banned but there was too much of a time lapse.

My proposal:

Have a manual check of users who are outpost and backpack tf banned. If the user was banned for things that do not involve scamming l, approve them. Otherwise, give them the same treatment as steamrep banned users.

 

Main topic of thread: the rules are fine, I just wished that people who bought unusual through opskins and marketplace would be banned also. It is really easy to check the histories of items easily for either site. Actually, I say make the rules more stringent asides from steam market where there is no readily accessible way to check though if the user is friends with that scammer... maybe an investigation is in order.

[Jack Lumberjack]

As someone who is marked (never broke steam rules) but knows scammers who actually broke the steam rules, I can say the only thing they care about are trade bans. Website like steamrep and backpack.tf rep do a good job in moving the attention from steam to these forums. Instead of scammers losing all their items and getting the punishment they deserve, they get a tag on a few sites that's only limited to 1 account. Where steam has all the actual information, where you live, where the items come from, they literally can check everything themselves, they can completely disable a scammer. However now we rely on sites like steamrep that is based on asking people taking screenshots of their history and checking the item history. In the worst case scenario a scammer gets banned on 1 or 2 sites, and he just simply puts the items somewhere else and sells it before admins even notice.

 

I must say trying to be the steam police is a nice effort, but you are only doing scammers a favour by lowering the punishment of a trade ban to a forum ban. Next to that the economy is massively decreasing because a lot of people are getting banned (and especially aren't getting unbanned). And most of them are banned for trading with scammers (hats that would've been trade locked otherwise), the people that lose here are the people that get scammed (scammers don't get trade banned) and the people that buy from scammers, that could contribute a lot to the economy otherwise. While the scammers run with the money.

[Julia]

The only people I see perma-banned for this reason are people that deserve it. Obvious fences for scammers or people who just don't care who they trade with if the profit is good enough.

[xxBonsai99xx]

I mentioned this before, aka my "launder.tf" post though I referred to the auctions. The fact that they ignored two reports on auctions of laundered unusuals which included one I wrote really pissed me off. I will concede that the launder I reported was eventually banned but there was too much of a time lapse.

Same thing, reported a user, they told me nope, few days later they ban them...Top kek.

[Plukos]

The most annoying type of traders with scammed items are those, who bought scammed items from traders banned for trading with scammer. You can't ban them because they did not trade exactly with the scammer, but they bought it from a dealer at like 50-70% off quicksale