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cleverpun

Addressing criticism of backpack.tf

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cleverpun

Everyone keeps making imgur albums and reddit posts about how horrible bp.tf is, so I decided to try and assuage some of these concerns in a public forum. I admit the mod team can sometimes seem esoteric, so hopefully this post will help users understand the situations they are complaining about. Feel free to link to this in other places (I'd do it myself, but getting a reddit account or whatever just to post one thing is quite a waste).

—

One of the most common complaints is how votes are not listened to. Let's take a look at some of the people who vote on key suggestions; http://imgur.com/a/ZNYlL

 

Votes, proof, and mods are all part of a system of checks and balances. Of course none of them have total control over the other, that is how checks and balances are supposed to work; in tandem. While votes do not have as much power as other aspects of the system, they are hardly useless. Mods check both proof and votes before accepting a suggestion, and some mods check votes before anything else.

 

On the vast majority of accepted suggestions the voters, proof, and mods all agree with each other, and it is those suggestions are easiest to defend after the fact. If a moderator is accepting/denying a suggestion against the voters wishes, they are required to post a comment explaining their decision. There is a way to publicly ask moderators to explain their decisions on the bp.tf forums.

 

This is only one of several reasons why key suggestions take so much time to moderate; a third of the system can't be relied on, so there is more strain put on the other checks (mods and proof).

—

Another common misconception is that moderators personally benefit from key suggestions. This ignores the fact that higher key prices mean paying more for keys in addition to selling them for more.

 

I personally have not bought OR sold keys for metal for more than eight months; http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/10212859 You can check the rest of my outpost profile if you don't believe me; http://www.tf2outpost.com/user/76561198043909709,17

 

I get all my keys from reselling taunts, paint, or games. I also recently purchased some buds for ref and then sold the buds for keys (paid about 6.55 per key, I think, could've done better if I waited for buds to go up more). The idea that mods benefit financially from key pricing assumes that we aren't regular traders, the same as anyone else.

—

Another complaint, though recent, is that I purchased my moderator position. This idea is so painfully absurd that I decided to simply ignore it at first. It seems that the layout of the site still confuses some people, however, so allow me to clear this up.

 

http://i.imgur.com/1fpj0Vb.png (Hopefully you'll forgive my sweet MSpaint skills.) The people who claim I bought my moderator position only have one piece of fallacious evidence; the badges seen here.

 

As you can see from this image, the various badges have little to do with each other, and the donator badge (meaning you gave items to the site) has nothing to do with the moderator badge (meaning you were selected to be a mod).

 

I was actually the first mod who was chosen via application; shortly after public applications were opened, I submitted an application and the other mods reviewed it. At the time, the only mods were Chief Indian Companion, Mr. Bucket, A Distinctive Lack of Vincent, Michael Puddington, and Brad Pitt. They felt I was a good candidate, and so Brad added me and asked me to join the team. We have since moved to these new forums, and the old steam community forums were purged, which is why you don't see my mod application anywhere (and sadly, the wayback machine doesn't have it archived).

 

The idea that someone could pay for moderator status is several types of ignorant. Many of the moderator applications open now have been rejected since the users are inexperienced, and backpack value has no spot on the form we give. Moderators are also forbidden from taking gifts or bribes from users (though thankfully I can only remember one instance where a user tried). Moderators also receive a cut of the monthly item donations to the site; taking applications based on wealth would create innumerable problems and loopholes, and the candidates would not be any more qualified because of it.

—

Finally, there is the idea that moderators are somehow silencing all dissenting opinions on key suggestions—that we are some Orwellian boogeyman out to destroy your freedom of speech™.

 

As noted above, key suggestions are a magnet for vitriol and misplaced zealotry. All internet communities have content standards and rules, and backpack.tf is no different. Every pointless comment on a key suggestion distracts from the actual discussion, and has a high chance to attract a flame war. The moderation team recently constructed a response explaining this point already, and our plan is to post it on all future key suggestions. I have pasted it below for reference;
 

Please try to stay on topic regarding the suggestion. What is relevant here are; personal experiences on the key trades, additional proof, issues with the provided proof, counterproof against suggested range, and thoughts on what range is most appropriate based on these factors. Community opinion on these matters are extremely important and off-topic matters distract from them severely.

 

In order to try to keep discussion on-topic, spam and unnecessary off-topic discussion (including discussion of the broader economy) will be be hidden. Abuse and rudeness will not be tolerated. For discussions on the economy and other tangential topics, we recommend the forums; http://forums.backpack.tf/

For discussion on keys in regards to the impact on the economy, this topic in particular is recommended; http://forums.backpack.tf/index.php?/topic/2580-the-one-and-only-key-price-topic-no-flame-wars-please-discussion-only/

 

For concerns as to how the site is treating comments in key suggestions, feel free to start a topic in the following forum; http://forums.backpack.tf/index.php?/forum/20-general-website-discussions/

 

These rules and guidelines apply to all key suggestions, past and present. In order to reduce potential confusion, the mod team is posting this summary in order to help bring attention to—and remind users of—these policies.

—

I know that sometimes the practices and methods of the moderation team can seem esoteric or arbitrary, even counter-intuitive. And I know this post will not change the minds of some users, who are dedicated to finding a scapegoat no matter what. But I believe in Hanlon's Razor, and hopefully some of these explanations will help properly inform people who think poorly of backpack.tf. None of this information is new, but perhaps having it all in one place will encourage people to think about their actions and explore the reasons for them, instead of continuing to mindlessly attack bp.tf with imperfect, embarrassing arguments.

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KA-_^PAA

Just wanted to say,the keys are going up cuz of bp.tf suggestions.

Items can always be sold for 0.11-0.22 scrap,there are no news there,I can sell stranges that worth like 0.33 and sell for 0.55 , no reason to resuggest or something like that.

But keys are going madness,keys will become 10 ref soon.so yeah.

But I don't know why people are trying to raise the price of the keys that would be bad for everyone.

 

Btw,im in that screenshot ^^

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Queyh

Just wanted to say,the keys are going up cuz of bp.tf suggestions.

Items can always be sold for 0.11-0.22 scrap,there are no news there,I can sell stranges that worth like 0.33 and sell for 0.55 , no reason to resuggest or something like that.

But keys are going madness,keys will become 10 ref soon.so yeah.

But I don't know why people are trying to raise the price of the keys that would be bad for everyone.

 

Btw,im in that screenshot ^^

This statement is entirely untrue. The true price of keys is nearly always ahead of BP's current price or newest suggestion. A good example of this could be found a couple of weeks ago, when the suggested BP price of keys was 6.77 - 6.88, yet one could sell keys for 7.11 easily and would have an extremely hard time finding ANY keys for sale at 6.88. Keys listed at that price were sold within a minute.

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cleverpun

This statement is entirely untrue. The true price of keys is nearly always ahead of BP's current price or newest suggestion. A good example of this could be found a couple of weeks ago, when the suggested BP price of keys was 6.77 - 6.88, yet one could sell keys for 7.11 easily and would have an extremely hard time finding ANY keys for sale at 6.88. Keys listed at that price were sold within a minute.

Just wanted to say,the keys are going up cuz of bp.tf suggestions.

Items can always be sold for 0.11-0.22 scrap,there are no news there,I can sell stranges that worth like 0.33 and sell for 0.55 , no reason to resuggest or something like that.

But keys are going madness,keys will become 10 ref soon.so yeah.

But I don't know why people are trying to raise the price of the keys that would be bad for everyone.

 

Btw,im in that screenshot ^^

http://forums.backpack.tf/index.php?/topic/2580-the-one-and-only-key-price-topic-no-flame-wars-please-discussion-only/

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fisk

yes it's obviously backpack.tf's fault keys are going up in price and not that an endless supply of metal is relatively worthless

 

#ShitTradersSay

 

I think most issues stem from people not wanting the price of x to rise and using the site as a scapegoat when prices inevitably rise

 

It's a tough choice for the mods to update prices on something rather important to the economy but those who complain feel it's about who shouts the loudest instead of what's actually happening in the trading scene

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ThatOtherChigga #Mack

thought this was a thread raging against bp.tf at first because of the new picture

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Baloo

Everyone keeps making imgur alums and reddit posts about how horrible bp.tf is, so I decided to try and assuage some of these concerns in a public forum.

 

dat spelling error in the first sentence.

 

RIP cleverpun's argument.

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Cryomancer7

Maybe if backpack.tf not establish a price for the Key, so many users wont critic backpack.tf anymore. Maybe is a good solution.

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TNC Phoenix®

SInce the topic is lifted for discussion.

 

"This is only one of several reasons why key suggestions take so much time to moderate; a third of the system can't be relied on, so there is more strain put on the other checks (mods and proof)."- You refer to the voters(players/traders of TF2) are unreliable. 

Says who?  And with what proof or logic?

 

"The idea that someone could pay for moderator status is several types of ignorant. Many of the moderator applications open now have been rejected since the users are inexperienced, and backpack value has no spot on the form we give. Moderators are also forbidden from taking gifts or bribes from users (though thankfully I can only remember one instance where a user tried). Moderators also receive a cut of the monthly item donations to the site; taking applications based on wealth would create innumerable problems."

 

You get paid for being a moderator on the site. That payment depends on the value of what people donated to the site. 

This means that people donating set your "salary" for your services. 

And only you guys know who these donators are(all of them). 

But if we do a check of the top 10 donators(according to your Donators-page) their bp-value ranges from 36 USD to 4000 USD.

You could argue that means that people from both cottages and castles support you. At the same time since people in this community have more then one account we can not say anything about that. 

 

Which brings me to my thought. 

You know who donates to you and how much. 

You know if the amount of donations changes from month to month, if it goes up and goes down. 

You know that people donating to your site, likes your services (I assume people do not like to punish themselves and give money to people they hate)

 

1. So people that supports your system, supports your decisions and supports your accepted keysuggestions,  should be more likely to donate to you site, right?

If 1 is true, that means

2. If services continue the way they are, meaning same voting system and same accepted keysuggestions,  you keep getting same amount of donations or more, right?

If 2. is true that means

3. You can get more or less donations depending on how you accept keysuggestions, right?

If 3 is true, that means

4. You have a personal profit interest in how the services are performed and therefore can be argued to be bias, being bias means not being objective. yes/no?

 

If above line of thought is false, pls explain why. 

 

So if this line of thought can not be denied. It means there is a possibility for power abuse among the moderators.

And that is what I read on other forums people have argued, that the site is corrupted.

And a site giving salaries to their "employees" depending on the amount of donations is not a "non-possible-system-to-corrupt".

 

And even thow you can be objective or maybe some of your admins are doing charity work giving away items it does not matter in the end. 

The current system can be corrupted.

Is it corrupted? I do not know and frankly as it is now it is impossible to find out. 

 

And no your word that everything is being done correct can not be regarded as proof. Just as a an angry guy writing on reddit that you are corrupted can not be regarded as proof. 

 

Therefore this debate/discussion can go on forever since both sides(and the neutral group) can claim anything concerning if bp.tf are using their power wrongly. 

 

/My two cents

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cleverpun

Maybe if backpack.tf not establish a price for the Key, so many users wont critic backpack.tf anymore. Maybe is a good solution.

The moderator team discussed that in the past, and it was definitively shot down; so many prices in the price list are in keys that it would severely damage usability of the site. Importing key prices from TF2F or trade.tf would run counter to the entire point of bp.tf: transparency.

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dabaers

Nice to see Fiskie participate now that he/she is part of backpack.tf :3

 

Now on to the topic at hand. To all of those people who think that backack.tf is increasing the price of keys, you are either misinformed, new to trading or the site or just plain dumb. backpack.tf doesn't raise the price, the market does. The reason that keys aren't 2.33 ref is because people buy and sell keys for much higher, in the 7-7.22 refish area. backpack.tf is here to reflect the current market of items, not to dictate the price of them. If I create a suggestion for sandviches to be 100 refined and It gets accepted for some reason, then people won't start stocking up on keys to buy sandviches. They buy it for a wep or scrap or whatever. Fortunately, the mods are there to prevent dumb stuff like that from happening. 

 

On to the voting system:

YOUR VOTE MATTERS (kinda) BUT JUST BECAUSE YOU DON'T THINK THAT KEYS SHOULD GO UP IS NOT A REASON TO DOWNVOTE.

Your vote influences things like hard-to determine suggestions, counter-suggestions (sometimes), and other various reasons. Whether you like it or not though, the mods have the final say. Why? Because 50% of people who vote on stuff and about 30% of the people who make suggestions (rough guess I have no idea) don't look at the proof and blindly upvote/downvote. As for suggestions, people simply don't provide proof (i saw like 4 suggestions today for the L4D2 items with 0 proof at all) or provide flawed proof. A large number of suggestions with no proof or little proof get a surprising number of upvotes due to people not looking before checking the box. Since people don't understand how the system works, the mods and regular users (the helpful ones, not me lol) with much more experience will assist (read that as critique) your suggestion and accept or deny or as a user, provide counter-proof or support.

 

#cleverpunpaid4mod  #backpack.tfjewforce  #justlookattheproofpls

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cleverpun
words

Point of order; a salary is by definition a fixed amount. What mods receive is more like a stipend, not a salary.

 

Except 1 isn't true, because there is no way for mods to predict how and when users will donate items. Even if we could, chances are the best way to encourage more donations is by being objective (as in, ignoring as much bias as possible), because presumably users expect some measure of objectivity from their pricing site.

 

Further, most users only donate items one time. Others donate their time by making suggestions or being in the forums. Predicting how and what users will donate is impossible, for these and countless other reasons.

 

Despite what it may seem, the amount of work that being a moderator entails compared to the stipend received is not some magical, giant number—I would make more money working a minimum wage job. Moderators are ultimately volunteers, stipend or not. I wasn't even aware of it until I was hired, and if I never received it again I would still donate my time to the website. If anything, the stipend discourages price fixing; the amount of gain to be had by mis-moderating suggestions is infinitesimal compared to being objective and collecting the donations.

 

Even if it was possible to predict/increase donations as you claim, the best way to draw in customers is with a good product (business 101). Being objective, reliable, and easy to understand is why people use the pricelist, and the fraction of users that donate do so because they think we are doing a good job (or they want donator perks).

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ThatOtherChigga #Mack

You refer to the voters(players/traders of TF2) are unreliable. 

Says who?  And with what proof or logic?

because if i were just a normal tf2 player with no knowledge of bp.tf, i would be blind downvoting every key suggestion

 

and every suggestion i do vote on are blindvotes, therefore i'm very unreliable

 

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polar

And only you guys know who these donators are(all of them). 

 

http://backpack.tf/top/donators

 

And

 

http://backpack.tf/u/76561198072847708

 

You can see exactly who donated and when by checking the backpack. The history on every refined and key in the bot's backpack will show you every single donator and when they donated.

 

 

And as for your other point about us having incentives for money. I make $12 / hour in my regular job. I make $<1 / hour for my contributions as a moderator. And I get paid the most because I go through more suggestions than any other mod per month. Some mods like cleverpun and woifi who spend most of their time moderating forums, comments in suggestions get paid next to nothing. 

 

We aren't in it for the money. If that were even remotely the case, I would spend my time working irl or at the very least trading tf2 where I make WAY more than I make moderating. We all signed up because we genuinely thought we could make a difference in the community. Believe that or not. Whatever the case, money as a motivator should be dead last on your list of possible alternative motivators as we really make next to nothing compared to the time we devote to the website. 

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Sketches_Stuff

Post made over on /r/tf2; the guy who made it doesn't have an accout here, so I'm crossposting it so there aren't a bajillion discussion threads. Link: http://redd.it/1uonwq

 

 

 

"Another common misconception is that moderators personally benefit from key suggestions. This ignores the fact that higher key prices mean paying more for keys in addition to selling them for more." (3rd Section)

"Moderators also receive a cut of the monthly item donations to the site..." (4th section)

This is very contradictory. What if someone donates a key or two to the site. What if you then receive that key as a cut? You can sell it for more than a month before when the key price was lower. Sure, cleverpun may not have bought/sold metal for keys/vice versa, but what about the other mods? And whose to say these mods aren't giving gifts to cleverpun or other mods who don't participate in key trading? What if cleverpun and the other mods give it to a middle man, who sells the keys, keeps a cut, and the rest goes to the bp.tf mods?

Assuming this, any part, to be true, than yes, you are profiting from the rising key price. If so much as a single mod is gaining money from, directly or indirectly, selling keys for metal, keys which they got from their "salary" let's call it, then they are directly profiting. You mods don't HAVE to buy keys for you to sell them. If they trade keys in any form, keys which they got from their mod salary, then they are profiting from the rising key price.

Section TL;DR: The mods most certainly CAN profit off of the raising key price, as due to their mod position, they do not need to buy keys to obtain them.

Another thing:

What bp.tf forgets, or as cleverpun seems to in his argument, is the huge effect bp.tf has on the market. Every two-bit trader is using bp.tf prices. Go onto the front page of outpost. At least one trader there has "bp.tf prices" in his notes. This basically means that Proof can't be trusted.

If bp.tf raises the key price, then people sell it for higher because they see that "Oh, bp.tf has risen their key price. Maybe I'll sell at that. bp.tf knows what they're talking about." If that doesn't happen, then they'll still follow it because a large enough following does. Would you sell a key for 7 ref? Or for 7.11? The guy buying for 7 ref is going off the old market price. If you're buying for 7.11, and a lot of people do so, then the 7 ref guy has no chance. He HAS to raise his price to compete.

Your Proof is invalid. It's tainted. It's evidence that the community has created based off of bp.tf's advice. If the mods ignore the Votes, then suddenly your "...system of checks and balances." (2nd Section) is thrown out of wack. Your Votes don't count. Your observations are biased. So what's left? The mods. The mods that potentially profit off of this. Even if they didn't, suddenly you have no checks and balances as you so claim.

Section TL;DR: Biased observations lead to invalid Proof. With invalid Proof, and the Votes thrown out the window, the Mods are all that is left of their checks and balances.

Another thing:

Why do the "Moderator" and "Donator" badges on him HAVE to be related? They aren't necessarily. But that doesn't mean he couldn't have bought his way into the position. It just means that the only proof is in the badges, which is easy to falsify.

What's that? What about his application? Well it was wiped clean. How convenient. Maybe I'm being a conspiracy theorist here, but perchance it was wiped away intentionally? Do any of you remember that fateful post?

To calm my spirits, I request something from cleverpun and the bp.tf mods. The original post. Seeing as you have accepted it, I'll bet it's lying around somewhere. You obviously did some research on him. If you cannot, provide stats from the week you promoted him. (Before promotion) If you can provide neither, than I'd be interested to see what argument you can come up with. If you can provide either, especially the post, I demand proof that it is the original. It's too easy to create a fake one to shut me up.

Section TL;DR: Badges argument to not buying his position easily dismissed. I demand more proof.

So, to sum it all up.

Mods can profit off of keys. Proof is invalid. Votes are invalid. Mods are the only c&b left, giving them ultimate power. Donator and Mod badges have nothing to do with each other, but it doesn't mean anything about how you got to your mod position. Argument dismissed.

I would much like to be proven to be wrong on many counts of this. I want to say that the mods of bp.tf have nothing to fear, but I would like to be sure as well. Thus, I have tried to find holes in the argument. It would set my soul at rest if you could fill these holes, rather than cover them up, it would be much appreciated.

I have no relation to the mods of /r/tf2, I have no relation to the trading community other than being a small trader. I am just one guy, who decided to think.

-sharpie660

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cleverpun

Who's Hanlon? You mean Occam?

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HanlonsRazor

 

 

words

 

Oh boy! Exactly the sort of scapegoat-seeking, over-emotional argument I was looking to refute. Let's go over this point by point;

 

 

Section TL;DR: The mods most certainly CAN profit off of the raising key price, as due to their mod position, they do not need to buy keys to obtain them.

Except keys are still worth about the same in paypal as they used to be (excluding that one jump when money launderers were cracked down on). This, more than any other factor, points to ref deflation as a key influence on keys. If bp.tf were actually making keys more valuable, their PP value would have skyrocketed accordingly.

 

I can't speak for the other mods, but I have never participated in paypal trading (don't have a paypal account).

 

What bp.tf forgets, or as cleverpun seems to in his argument, is the huge effect bp.tf has on the market.

Bp.tf does sometimes lead the market for common or new items—you are right about this. The market for keys, however, is much larger and much more complex than the market for most other items.

 

If anything, backpack.tf is consistently behind on key prices. The strong community reaction to key suggestions encouraged the moderator team to implement cooldown rules. The severe scrutiny key suggestions undergo means that even when sellers are successful above backpack.tf's range, they may not be sufficient in number to raise the price, even if they are easy to sell.

 

You can verify this yourself by looking at past key suggestions; between August 19 and September 8 2013, no new key suggestions were accepted. Yet during that time, many sellers were successful for higher amounts. Scrap.tf once planned to only use backpack.tf prices for their key bots. Eventually, however, they had to stop this; a week or two later, they dropped this policy. You can ask the scrap.tf admins for a definitive, official reason, but if I had to speculate, I would guess that they were never stocked because the resulting prices were too low.

 

Section TL;DR: Badges argument to not buying his position easily dismissed. I demand more proof.

I focused on the badges because that seems to be the source of the misconception; one person saw a dollar value on my profile, and incorrectly assumed they were related. Then the misconception spread. You can waltz over to our list of top donators and you'll notice that there are dozens, hundreds of people who donated more than me, yet who are not moderators.

 

I'll ask Brad about checking the old steam forums for my application, but I'm fairly certain it was deleted along with everything else there.

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~shenanigans

In response to sharpie660

 

1. Mods barely get anything from moderating. The amount we can potentially gain is minimal when compared with someone who instead spends that time to trade. We try our best to follow actual market trends and if supply/demand isn't at equilibrium, market value will change. Some mods are also active traders, who buy and sell keys regularly. The little they make here is next to nothing compared to what volume they go through per day. Increasing key prices means these mods have to change their buy/sell rates as well, and the profit margin stays the same. Also, if you participate in real money trading, you would know that key prices in real money hasn't changed much, while refined prices in real money have been dropping.

 

2. Voters do make a difference. If there is a large dissenting voice to a particular suggestion, it shows that there may be something wrong with the suggestion. It could be that the suggestor failed to recognize a key aspect of the market. It could be that the proof is just subpar. It could be that many voters simply wish for one outcome, when in reality it is not so. This was the case for some of the older key suggestions. Voters wanted keys to be lower, but keys could have been sold for the suggested price in the market and thus the suggestion was accepted. If you think US politics, mods are kind of like the executive branch. Executive branch can veto a bill passed through congress, and congress can then suggest something different. We can deny a suggestion with positive votes because it doesn't accurately reflect the market value. If we made an incorrect choice, the suggestor can make another suggestion with revised range and/or proof which satisfies the reason the original suggestion was closed (we always make a comment whenever deciding against popular vote as to why we did so).

 

3. Cleverpun did not pay to become mod. I didn't pay to become mod. Woifi didn't pay to become mod. http://backpack.tf/u/76561198024925599 - Woifi's profile, he's donated $10.51. http://forums.backpack.tf/index.php?/topic/82-application-woifi/ - Woifi's application, accepted after careful consideration. Also as Cleverpun has said, look at the top donators list and see how many of them are mods (are you going to say Brad Pitt donated his way to be the founder?) We donated because we like the site and support what it does. http://backpack.tf/u/76561198001634629 - profile of the top donator. If he asked to become a mod, he would be rejected on the spot, because he has not shown yet that he can make good decisions, evaluate proper proof, search for counterproof, etc.

 

Your first argument doesn't take scale into account. Your second argument is misinformed. Your third argument... (if you can call it one) is absurd.

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Xeomuz

I notice that backpack.tf is working hard on this site. Too bad alot of people think backpack.tf is evil. They have no idea what really happening.

 

Just my suggestion. If everyone really hates backpack.tf. How bout close this website for a month and see what happen to TF2 economy.

I wonder if it getting better or chaotic then before.

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puddingkip

Waking up to this with a hot cup of coffee was awesome. Best laugh I had in weeks. I donated twice what Cleverpun did, please make me a mod mmmkay. And those arguments are so clearly countering themselves it's hilarious.

 

If Cleverpun is corrupt because he gets paid, but is a mod because he paid 5$ that's the best investment ever. Pay a one time fee of $5 and get more than that back every month. It just doesnt't make any sense

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Cryomancer7

The moderator team discussed that in the past, and it was definitively shot down; so many prices in the price list are in keys that it would severely damage usability of the site. Importing key prices from TF2F or trade.tf would run counter to the entire point of bp.tf: transparency.

Mmm, I'm relativily new user here, especially in the forums, but maybe is time to re-post that discussion. I'm sure what with a great job all can change the prices from the Key to the refs. But I don't found any reason for not take the price from trade.tf.

 

PS: I don't found any reason for said what cleverpun paid for be mod, if he's mod is because is doing good him job. If you don't like he as moderator, just do other topic, it isn't for discuss about cleverpun.

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Asker

 

 

On the vast majority of accepted suggestions the voters, proof, and mods all agree with each other, and it is those suggestions are easiest to defend after the fact. If a moderator is accepting/denying a suggestion against the voters wishes, they are required to post a comment explaining their decision. There is a way to publicly ask moderators to explain their decisions on the bp.tf forums.

 

Let's hope every mods remember to do this since some of the past suggestion got accepted without leaving any explaination.

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polar

Mmm, I'm relativily new user here, especially in the forums, but maybe is time to re-post that discussion. I'm sure what with a great job all can change the prices from the Key to the refs. But I don't found any reason for not take the price from trade.tf.

 

We had discussed this internally. And I was one of the proponents of this, but Brad made a great point. People can already check trade.tf and tf2finance whenever they want. Why simply re-post the same thing from another site here? At the end of the day, there's a reason why bp.tf is so popular. We are perfectly transparent with our decision making, as all rationales for going against the community vote are clearly explained in every suggestion.

 

We give our own assessment about currency values. Having more sources to determine your item values is better. And unlike these websites that use algorithms that are not publicly available, we set prices in a completely transparent manner. People who don't like it have other options - tf2finance and trade.tf.

 

Let's hope every mods remember to do this since some of the past suggestion got accepted without leaving any explaination.

 

I have been on the website for a long time, and as far as I can remember I have never seen a suggestion where a mod went against the community vote without giving an explanation. If it happened, it was the exception and a mistake.

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