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The 5% or 0.33 rule needs a change


٠•● Pollen Zest
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A rule of backpack.tf is a suggestion change needs to be 0.33 (A single reclaimed) or 5%, (of the items current value) however, this is not a set rule, because it's done at a mods discretion ( https://gyazo.com/015aa090dc38df1f99696e94f7f77557) This is a nuisance because we (as suggestors) don't know which mod is evaluating the suggestion, Here are some examples of 0.33 suggestions getting closed,

 

http://backpack.tf/suggestion/5841fbbc8667476eb87e1013

http://backpack.tf/suggestion/5853016de3387725a5287842

 

Now, Indeed there is no rule that shows 0.33 changes are exempt from the 5% rule

https://gyazo.com/74e3db90e41e452390b8ca49005c5c3e

 

Now, what is the point? Well I believe the rule is a mess, So here a few ideas to prehaps change it to hopefully make it better.

Firstly, I suggest the rule is set in stone, so in the backpack.tf rules, remember them?

http://backpack.tf/rules

This will make sure that everyone has to keep to it, not just suggestors, the mods too (I talk about it a little more below)

 

Secondly I suggest for items priced from 0.11 to 2 are okay as long as the change is at least 0,11, 

 

From items priced two to four refined the change has to be 0.22 minimum, regardless of 5%, 

 

Now, from four refined to the price of a key (currently 29 refined) a change of 0.44 refined is required regardless if it's a five percent change or not. (although for higher items nearer a key this may need to be 0.66)

 

And items over a key must always be 5% regardless of actual sales this should not be left at mod discretion because all mods have standards (one may not care about it and one may follow it religiously)  

 

Now, I don't think what I've said is perfect, I just hope to open discussion a upon it, because it's not working currently in my opinion.

 

TL:DR 5% percent rule should not apply for items under a key and always should apply for items over a key, and it should never be left at a single mods discretion.

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The point of the 5% rule is an arbitrary rule created by the mod team to try to stop useless suggestions. There is nothing "magical" about 5%, rather, they picked a number and anything below that percentage would be considered "unnecessary." The point of suggesting is to show the AVERAGE price of items. The COMMON TRADING POINT (especially for unique items >5 keys). This is why 1 scrap changes for 1 key items are pretty stupid. 

 

While I think the 5% rule is probably fine, I do believe that something needs to be done about mod's discretion using the 5% rule. Half the time, mods don't use it, then the other half, mods use it... Some def needs to be fixed for that.

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The point of the 5% rule is an arbitrary rule created by the mod team to try to stop useless suggestions. There is nothing "magical" about 5%, rather, they picked a number and anything below that percentage would be considered "unnecessary." The point of suggesting is to show the AVERAGE price of items. The COMMON TRADING POINT (especially for unique items >5 keys). This is why 1 scrap changes for 1 key items are pretty stupid. 

 

While I think the 5% rule is probably fine, I do believe that something needs to be done about mod's discretion using the 5% rule. Half the time, mods don't use it, then the other half, mods use it... Some def needs to be fixed for that.

 

I definitely agree that it has it's uses, I just think it's slightly flawed. 

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*your second gyazo link is broken because there's a space in it :P*

 

I'm glad somebody brought this up if I wasn't going to {which I was planning to}. Like Zest has pointed out, the one problem with this is that the discretion is left up to only one moderator and we do not know which moderator is handling our suggestions.

 

My ideas were:

 

1.Something along the lines of what Lemon said ^^

2. Let us know which moderators handle which suggestion. Maybe assign them to suggestions like Outpost assigns reports to their moderators maybe??

Ex. https://gyazo.com/dca967f6680b1d03628c2f496450caf8

 

This moderator's discretion thing is basically just randomly accepting or closing stuff to us suggestors and I find that if this continues, there's no point in making price suggestions {my personal opinion}. Not only is this annoying, but it also makes us look bad {accuracy wise and such}.

 

Something like Lemon suggested:

 

Secondly I suggest for items priced from 0.11 to 2 are okay as long as the change is at least 0,11, 

 

From items priced two to four refined the change has to be 0.22 minimum, regardless of 5%, 

 

Now, from four refined to the price of a key (currently 29 refined) a change of 0.44 refined is required regardless if it's a five percent change or not. (although for higher items nearer a key this may need to be 0.66)

 

And items over a key must always be 5% regardless of actual sales this should not be left at mod discretion because all mods have standards (one may not care about it and one may follow it religiously)  

 

 is a great idea and should be taken into consideration. It obviously isn't perfect but stuff like this can be modified.

 

That's my view of this.

 

-SiN

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I think it's fairly obvious as a suggester as to what suggestions under 5% the mods will accept vs will reject. If you're raising or dropping an item by under 5%, you'll need to provide more than just one sample of evidence to show that the change has meaning. If the mods determine that the change is actually needed, then they'll accept the suggestion. Even so, if you provide an adequate amount of evidence and the mod rejects the suggestion, then there's no loss there. By giving the mods less leeway to make judgement calls, it hurts the validity of suggestions even if it does bring clarity.

 

Secondly I suggest for items priced from 0.11 to 2 are okay as long as the change is at least 0,11, 

 

From items priced two to four refined the change has to be 0.22 minimum, regardless of 5%, 

 

Now, from four refined to the price of a key (currently 29 refined) a change of 0.44 refined is required regardless if it's a five percent change or not. (although for higher items nearer a key this may need to be 0.66)

Also I have some reservations about this suggestion. For items 0.11-2, it isn't difficult at all to sell for 0.11 higher than bptf price if the price is at like 1.55, because a lot of people don't have two scrap and it just isn't worth the extra scrap to go in-game and smelt. Same with higher valued items. I personally feel it would be better just to implement a round-to-the-nearest-rec rule and ignore the in-between, as I've never noticed a difference in the market between 1 or 2 scrap changes to some weird price.

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*your second gyazo link is broken because there's a space in it :P*

 

I'm glad somebody brought this up if I wasn't going to {which I was planning to}. Like Zest has pointed out, the one problem with this is that the discretion is left up to only one moderator and we do not know which moderator is handling our suggestions.

 

My ideas were:

 

1.Something along the lines of what Lemon said ^^

2. Let us know which moderators handle which suggestion. Maybe assign them to suggestions like Outpost assigns reports to their moderators maybe??

Ex. https://gyazo.com/dca967f6680b1d03628c2f496450caf8

 

This moderator's discretion thing is basically just randomly accepting or closing stuff to us suggestors and I find that if this continues, there's no point in making price suggestions {my personal opinion}. Not only is this annoying, but it also makes us look bad {accuracy wise and such}.

 

Something like Lemon suggested:

 

 

 is a great idea and should be taken into consideration. It obviously isn't perfect but stuff like this can be modified.

 

That's my view of this.

 

-SiN

 

Fixed the gyazo link, thank you for pointing out

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the rules don't need clarifying or changing. the spamming of suggestions needs to slow dafuq down.

 

when in doubt, make your proof worth the mods time to read.

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the rules don't need clarifying or changing. the spamming of suggestions needs to slow dafuq down.

 

when in doubt, make your proof worth the mods time to read.

 

Do you even know what and by extension, where I'm coming from?

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According to current staff members from my thread, the reclaimed change benchmark does not actually exist. The main reason some users may assume it exists is because some moderators supposedly still have the same mentality of keys being much cheaper than they currently are, and this influences their personal bias on a suggestion's validity.
 

To answer your questions, reclaimed changes were never exempt from the 5% rule. This was never a thing, although I can understand why most suggestors decided to pick up that mentality(in the past, most reclaimed changes were considered to be significant enough before keys started stepping up to what they are now).
 
If a suggestion falls under the 5% area, I close it under the judgement that either the change is not justified enough, or the fact that such a change would be completely unnecessary.

 

Woifi put it best. The "rule" says that <5% is meaningless, but if a certain mod sees a reclaimed change as not fully meaningless, I can't really argue with them. Calling something meaningless is subjective and 5% is an arbitrary number. That's exactly what we mean by at the mod's "discretion." Some of us are still stuck in the mindset of keys being 2 refined and a reclaimed having value. And relatively newer traders and maybe some of the newer mods don't with keys approaching 30 refined.

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This moderator's discretion thing is basically just randomly accepting or closing stuff to us suggestors and I find that if this continues, there's no point in making price suggestions {my personal opinion}. Not only is this annoying, but it also makes us look bad {accuracy wise and such}.

 

Why is it an issue that you don't necessarily know which mod is handling a suggestion? It won't affect the outcome of the situation. Also, having a suggestion closed isn't a bad thing, and it will not make you look bad.

 

And, for the last time, it is a guideline. Not a rule. Use your own logic to decide whether or not a change is needed, and if you can't work it out and don't want your accuracy or whatever harmed, then ask for someone to help you out or something. Be smart about it.

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Why is it an issue that you don't necessarily know which mod is handling a suggestion? It won't affect the outcome of the situation. Also, having a suggestion closed isn't a bad thing, and it will not make you look bad.

 

And, for the last time, it is a guideline. Not a rule. Use your own logic to decide whether or not a change is needed, and if you can't work it out and don't want your accuracy or whatever harmed, then ask for someone to help you out or something. Be smart about it.

 

I did not address it as a rule, (Okay SiN said but oh well it's worth addressing it)

 

 

"Now, Indeed there is no rule that shows 0.33 changes are exempt from the 5% rule"

https://gyazo.com/74e3db90e41e452390b8ca49005c5c3e

 

 

If we look over the everything else, the main point is we want the mods to be consistent over it.

(even if there they infact consistent we need a set standard if a 0.33 change from 13.44 to 13.77 is a allowed, not just a guideline)

http://backpack.tf/suggestion/5855852ec440456a673e3306- 4.8% change, granted still young,

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Why is it an issue that you don't necessarily know which mod is handling a suggestion? It won't affect the outcome of the situation.

I'm with Roller on this one, some consistency between moderators would be appreciated.

Experienced this myself two weeks ago where half of my suggestions got accepted and the other half got closed although there was no substantial difference between the suggestions.

 

rXGC4lu.png

(Source)

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I rarely handle non-unusual items, so I rarely deal with this rule, but my stance on the matter is as follows:

 The rule/guideline - or whatever you want to call it - is mainly meant to avoid a large influx of pointless suggestions, especially when they're based on single sellers. Suggestions that make irrelevant changes to common item's prices generally dont benefit anyone, and just take time for moderators to look through (i.e the significance of, say, a change between 10 ref flat and 10-10.33 (or maybe even worse: changes from like 10.33 to 10.33-10.44) is very minimal, and doesnt really help your everyday trader to get a better insight in the market in most cases, especially the latter case).

There are however some cases in which a change includes a change in range, or a switch to a different currency, where the mean remains the same (or seems to remain the same in the latter situation), but where the suggestion still adds relevant information. I personally dont really see much benefits in changes from like 3.33 flat to 3-3.66 (expanding ranges), as for most of those items, people check the base price and dont really look at their ranges anyway, but changes like these bear a certain significance that can be allowed from time to time. In other cases, suggestions go from something obscure like 10.33-10.44 (which gives a weird price of 10.37 as average, and really no one is going to have a precision of that level in a 10+ ref item) to something much more viable like 10.33 flat, or 10-10.66 (the kind of "insignificant changes" I personally think are okay). They officially go against our guidelines, but sort-of serve a purpose.

Bottom line here is that there are certain scenarios where the new suggested price may actually be an improvement over the old one, and they'd be blocked by a hard rule. Im personally not even against a hard rule on this matter (or even to a mechanism that prevents items priced in refined to have such a change), but if we do that, we will get complaints from the other side - people that complain they cant make a change because of "the stupid 5%rule". There's really no way to satisfy everyone here.

Giving the suggester the freedom to make such suggestions is what we deem most fit here, and what seems to be received as positive by the largest part of the community (for whom the suggestions are, after all). If you care for your accuracy, or - for whatever other dark and mysterious reasons - you dont want your suggestions potentially being closed by moderators, just play it safe and dont make suggestions that induce pointless changes, and "obey the rules" (or obey the guidelines). If you are the rebellious type that likes to go against the system, then youre free to make suggestions as you please, at the risk of us closing them.

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Okay, this is going to be my last post on this topic. 

 

(1) A rule of backpack.tf is a suggestion change needs to be 0.33 (A single reclaimed)

 

(2) This is a nuisance because we (as suggestors) don't know which mod is evaluating the suggestion, Here are some examples of 0.33 suggestions getting closed,

 

(3) Now, what is the point? Well I believe the rule is a mess

 

(4) Firstly, I suggest the rule is set in stone, so in the backpack.tf rules, remember them?

 

(5) http://backpack.tf/rules

This will make sure that everyone has to keep to it, not just suggestors, the mods too (I talk about it a little more below)

 

Secondly I suggest for items priced from 0.11 to 2 are okay as long as the change is at least 0,11, 

 

From items priced two to four refined the change has to be 0.22 minimum, regardless of 5%, 

 

Now, from four refined to the price of a key (currently 29 refined) a change of 0.44 refined is required regardless if it's a five percent change or not. (although for higher items nearer a key this may need to be 0.66)

 

And items over a key must always be 5% regardless of actual sales this should not be left at mod discretion because all mods have standards (one may not care about it and one may follow it religiously)  

 

(1) There's no such rule that 0.33 ref changes are acceptable. 

 

(2) Do you see how convoluted your points 1 and 2 are? You state yourself what the rules are and then say it's a nuisance when a mod closes your suggestions when you are in fact violating the rules? Just don't make changes less than 5% and you won't have anything to worry about? 

 

(3) The "mess" is when we get spammed with shitty suggestions based on buyers / sellers alone that are meaningless changes (changing an items value by a reclaimed or less). These sorts of suggestions don't need community or moderator voting or evaluating. They just make it harder for both mods and the community to find suggestions that really need input. 

 

(4) Our "rules" are guidelines and will never be made "set in stone." Consider the suggestion changing an item by less than 5% but is the first suggestion in 10 suggestions actually based on sales. I always consider accepting any suggestion based on sales regardless of the % change because that's what values should be based on to begin with. We accept these lazy suggestions based on buyers and sellers on the grounds that they are better than the current value but that's not what prices are supposed to be based on to begin with. 

 

(5) Just step back for a second and look at the rule you are proposing for a second. Who on earth is going to keep track of every single facet of this really complicated rule you have proposed. I can tell you that even the mods wouldn't keep straight what category matches up with what acceptable change. We need our time and energy spent on more important things than that - such as assessing complex unusual suggestions or assessing large changes on items that are severely outdated. 

 

(1) The point of the 5% rule is an arbitrary rule created by the mod team to try to stop useless suggestions.  

 

(2) While I think the 5% rule is probably fine, I do believe that something needs to be done about mod's discretion using the 5% rule. Half the time, mods don't use it, then the other half, mods use it... Some def needs to be fixed for that.

(1) Yes, that's exactly the point of the rule

 

(2) "Half the time, mods don't use it, then the other half, mods use it" This is exactly what mod's discretion means. Sometimes it will be accepted and other times it won't. 5% is arbitrary as you suggest. What constitutes "significant" is subjective. I'm not going to argue with another mod who feels that a reclaimed change, while not 5%, is a significant change. I respect their judgment on that and am fine with them accepting. If suggesters and voters want some clarity, they should avoid making or voting on those suggestions altogether. 

 

I'm not going to force other mods to do something that isn't a huge deal imo. And I'm not going to get rid of the rule and get spammed with meaningless suggestions. 

 

This moderator's discretion thing is basically just randomly accepting or closing stuff to us suggestors and I find that if this continues, there's no point in making price suggestions {my personal opinion}. Not only is this annoying, but it also makes us look bad {accuracy wise and such}.

 

There indeed is no point in making suggestions changing values by less than 5%. If you want to contribute to the community, make suggestions that are needed, changing values of items by meaningful amounts. 

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Okay, this is going to be my last post on this topic. 

 

 

(1) There's no such rule that 0.33 ref changes are acceptable. 

 

(2) Do you see how convoluted your points 1 and 2 are? You state yourself what the rules are and then say it's a nuisance when a mod closes your suggestions when you are in fact violating the rules? Just don't make changes less than 5% and you won't have anything to worry about? 

 

(3) The "mess" is when we get spammed with shitty suggestions based on buyers / sellers alone that are meaningless changes (changing an items value by a reclaimed or less). These sorts of suggestions don't need community or moderator voting or evaluating. They just make it harder for both mods and the community to find suggestions that really need input. 

 

(4) Our "rules" are guidelines and will never be made "set in stone." Consider the suggestion changing an item by less than 5% but is the first suggestion in 10 suggestions actually based on sales. I always consider accepting any suggestion based on sales regardless of the % change because that's what values should be based on to begin with. We accept these lazy suggestions based on buyers and sellers on the grounds that they are better than the current value but that's not what prices are supposed to be based on to begin with. 

 

(5) Just step back for a second and look at the rule you are proposing for a second. Who on earth is going to keep track of every single facet of this really complicated rule you have proposed. I can tell you that even the mods wouldn't keep straight what category matches up with what acceptable change. We need our time and energy spent on more important things than that - such as assessing complex unusual suggestions or assessing large changes on items that are severely outdated. 

 

(1) Yes, that's exactly the point of the rule

 

(2) "Half the time, mods don't use it, then the other half, mods use it" This is exactly what mod's discretion means. Sometimes it will be accepted and other times it won't. 5% is arbitrary as you suggest. What constitutes "significant" is subjective. I'm not going to argue with another mod who feels that a reclaimed change, while not 5%, is a significant change. I respect their judgment on that and am fine with them accepting. If suggesters and voters want some clarity, they should avoid making or voting on those suggestions altogether. 

 

I'm not going to force other mods to do something that isn't a huge deal imo. And I'm not going to get rid of the rule and get spammed with meaningless suggestions. 

 

 

There indeed is no point in making suggestions changing values by less than 5%. If you want to contribute to the community, make suggestions that are needed, changing values of items by meaningful amounts. 

 

Well Polar probably won't reply or read this, may aswell reply though.

 

1 and 2) I fully accept that my first post is a mess, and very contradictory 

 

3) Again it's not clear but by "Mess" I mean't by how it's interpreted by mods and suggestors.

 

4) Is why I dislike the rule, (Though I accept that it is helpful) Because of it's subjective nature it's not clear at all, and it's extremely bendable

 

5) If you read the second last paragraph you'd know I don't think it as a good idea, I used it to start a conversation

 

6) I don't want the rule removed, I think it's a great idea, with not so perfect execution, again going back to 5 and 4, It needs to be solid so It's clear to everyone, But it's clear Polar doesn't want this to happen.

 

"I'm not going to force other mods to do something that isn't a huge deal imo. And I'm not going to get rid of the rule and get spammed with meaningless suggestions. "

 
I'm sure most people will want a TL:DR again, so here it is, 
 
The five percent or one reclaimed minimum change rule while good in many ways, is a poor system because it's (due to lack of a better word) open to corruption, This is because the "rule" is infact a lose guideline that is bendable based on one mod's opinion, the price of keys and refined doesn't help this, this is why I propose a new standard for all price suggestions under one key, while keeping the current system for all items priced over it.
 

While I doubt anything will come out this thread, I hope something may happen in the future.

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6) I don't want the rule removed, I think it's a great idea, with not so perfect execution, again going back to 5 and 4, It needs to be solid so It's clear to everyone, But it's clear Polar doesn't want this to happen.

This is the only real disagreement here. All other points that are being addressed from one another are addressed based on a difference in opinion on thís specific matter. I've tried explaining above why I think having a guideline is better than a solid rule here. I also agree with the points made about the significance of this rule (which ironically is just meant to stop people from making insignificant changes.)

 

Think of it as a pedestrian speed limit near a shopping mall to prevent chaos. if such a thing would exist, no one would enforce it because its way more effort than value to tell someone they're walking faster than 3 miles an hour or something like that, whilst the limit says youre not allowed to go faster than 3. Will it be exceedingly dangerous if a rebel would dare to walk 4, or for someone in a hurry to take a sprint? no, it wont; mostly because there's a general guideline to prevent chaotic situations in which collisions could become a regular occurrence (i.e the fact that the mass doesnt do it is enough to prevent the problem that the rule/guideline is trying to prevent).

 

My only question in return is:

If you agree with the rule, think its a great idea and think such changes should not be allowed, then why are you in the situation that your suggestions get closed because they fall in that category?

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This is the only real disagreement here. All other points that are being addressed from one another are addressed based on a difference in opinion on thís specific matter. I've tried explaining above why I think having a guideline is better than a solid rule here. I also agree with the points made about the significance of this rule (which ironically is just meant to stop people from making insignificant changes.)

 

Think of it as a pedestrian speed limit near a shopping mall to prevent chaos. if such a thing would exist, no one would enforce it because its way more effort than value to tell someone they're walking faster than 3 miles an hour or something like that, whilst the limit says youre not allowed to go faster than 3. Will it be exceedingly dangerous if a rebel would dare to walk 4, or for someone in a hurry to take a sprint? no, it wont; mostly because there's a general guideline to prevent chaotic situations in which collisions could become a regular occurrence (i.e the fact that the mass doesnt do it is enough to prevent the problem that the rule/guideline is trying to prevent).

 

My only question in return is:

If you agree with the rule, think its a great idea and think such changes should not be allowed, then why are you in the situation that your suggestions get closed because they fall in that category?

 

Because they violate they rule as it currently stands, and trying to follow another way will result in another closed suggestion.

 

http://backpack.tf/suggestion/5853016de3387725a5287842- Closed because it didn't meet one of the two conditions

http://backpack.tf/suggestion/5852ffa8e3387751590d3d9d- Closed despite my clear intention to close it

 

Well some of them are me just clutching at straws for a suggestion, ( http://backpack.tf/suggestion/58209633c440452b3c5efb65 )

while others are closed due to religious following to the rule, ( http://backpack.tf/suggestion/5843265d8667473efc59373a )

 

(I'll be brutally honest I don't completely understand what you mean't this was my best answer)

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What I mean is:

You say you think the rule is a good idea, meaning you agree with the purpose of the rule. If you do, then why do you violate it? Why dont you abide it? That indirectly means you make suggestions you yourself dont agree with.

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What I mean is:

 

You say you think the rule is a good idea, meaning you agree with the purpose of the rule. If you do, then why do you violate it? Why dont you abide it? That indirectly means you make suggestions you yourself dont agree with.

 

When I don't abide by it, I usually believe a suggested price is better than the current one for a common trading point, e.g

 

http://backpack.tf/suggestion/5843265d8667473efc59373a5.88 to 5.66, it's shown that 0.66 is alot more common than .88

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When I don't abide by it, I usually believe a suggested price is better than the current one for a common trading point, e.g

 

http://backpack.tf/suggestion/5843265d8667473efc59373a5.88 to 5.66, it's shown that 0.66 is alot more common than .88

So if the suggester just thinks that it's a more common trading point, he can make it? Even though you just said it's a good rule? 

 

smh when you complain about the mod's consistency when you aren't even consistent. 

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So if the suggester just thinks that it's a more common trading point, he can make it? Even though you just said it's a good rule? 

 

smh when you complain about the mod's consistency when you aren't even consistent. 

 

Agreed I'm not consistent. I didn't claim I was perfect either, I just think a common trading point should come first.

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Agreed I'm not consistent. I didn't claim I was perfect either, I just think a common trading point should come first.

 

http://backpack.tf/suggestion/5843265d8667473efc59373a- your suggestion

 

A week later - http://backpack.tf/classifieds?item=Mad%20Milk&quality=11&tradable=1&craftable=1&australium=-1

 

So you drop it by a scrap or two one week and raise it a scrap or two the next? At any given point in time items have this much variation. Doesn't mean we have to price every tiny change when they'll just go back and forth within a margin of error. Just look at SCM prices. There's natural variation directly related to the time of day an item is on the market. In a way the 5% rule accounts for this variation so that we don't get suggestions raising / lowering items by a scrap in short succession. 

 

And you mention most common trade point? Sellers do not identify the most common trade point. Sales do. You should use sales to determine that.

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Posted · Hidden by polar, December 18, 2016 - No reason given
Hidden by polar, December 18, 2016 - No reason given

At this point I doubt a change will happen, this is my last post about it in this thread.

because you know you're wrong? 

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