Should more measures be taken when suggesting a price of a hat to consider whether or not the trade was for profit or for taste?

[Chuffs (NT-O)]

PLEASE READ EVERYTHING TO FULLY UNDERSTAND THIS POST AND MY IDEAS!

 

Sorry for the confusing topic, it might convey many ideas, but I'll help sum it up for you.

 

Some of you guys might know me as the troll suggester for the Burning TC:

http://backpack.tf/vote/id/560033c9dea9e92c538b469b

 

I'm here to discuss if we should change how the 10% overpay factor is applied to hat suggestions, based on the reason hats are traded.

 

Puddington (Backpack.tf Moderator) said this:

 

-».•´Puddilicious`•.«-: almost all sales are based on taste

-».•´Puddilicious`•.«-: no one buys a hat they dont like unless they're trying to turn a profit and ironically, we dont consider those sales as legit

-».•´Puddilicious`•.«-: the ones where someone buys a hat and turns around to resell right away

-».•´Puddilicious`•.«-: are ignored as sales

-».•´Puddilicious`•.«-: we consider only sales where people seem to buy to keep

-».•´Puddilicious`•.«-: and not to resell

 

(Here's the proof): https://gyazo.com/239ec17b89454f553b5f253365f777b4

 

I'll try explaining this as simply as possible. A lot of unusual traders are aware of the 10% overpay rule on backpack.tf. Generally, traders that look for this type of profit normally, who want to sell hats for strictly profitable reasons do this. But there are a plethora of traders (I'd say the majority of them) that trade hats based on taste, and would easily give an even deal with no profiteer, just for a hat they really want. After all, the term is trading, which is generally an equal exchange of goods. So when it comes to the 10% overpay aspect, many popular suggestors factor that in without conversing with the buyer/seller once, usually not even adding either of them. This is where the issue lies, prices of hats are skewed because suggestors factor in the 10% overpay no matter what, even though a lot of the time, people just do an even deal, because they like your hat, and you like theirs.

 

My solution to this, is sort of simple. Make another statistical measure taken when suggesting a hat, where you possible get some type of verification from each trader, regarding what purpose they traded. If they say it was to keep, slap on the 10% overpay, if they are going to resell it shortly after, do not take the overpay factor into effect. Another step maybe, is having like a 1 week cooldown on a hat, or atleast take into consideration if the new owner of said hat, is even trying to sell the hat, which would also decide whether or not a suggestion is needed.

 

These are just my ideas, but I'd like to create this into one solid idea, and present it to the community soon, and hopes to get your guys' approval and put this into use to save hats prices from being slaughtered.

 

Leave criticism, comments, ideas, and feedback, that'd be wonderful.

[Kevin the Chicken God]

ahh this issue was brought up on another thread, let me go see if I can find it

 

iirc polar said that it's a case by case, where it's up to the suggestor to determine whether or not a trade was made for taste or profit (i.e. you wouldnt apply overpay if someone offered a burning honchos on your 3rd gen robo hat because it's a direct and obvious upgrade), or if a hat sells easily for pure (i.e. burning rack), but frankly, no one does this. I don't know anymore, this is an issue that's popped up on high tiers where someone would buy a hat for keeps and wouldnt apply overpay on their sale because of it, and the comments would flip. They would then have to take a 50+ key hit on a hat they bought because they wanted. The logic behind overpay was that you have to pay more in unusuals to get a hat, but in a market where it's impossible to sell hats for full price and people often just offer around bp.tf price using it as a guideline, it causes for stuff to be lowered purely because of overpay.

[Kuuko-San]

I still don't see how hat prices are being slaughtered. 

 

10% is more than fair as overpay. A collector wouldn't care what his hat is priced at, especially if it's 1:1.

 

This allows manipulation and more messed up prices. 

 

If there's multiple of the hat on the market, and multiple says, it wouldn't be fair to not apply overpay on one, not to to mention the amount effort needed.

1 week cooldowns allow traders to abusive the price of heavily outdated hats to lesser knowing traders or stuff like sweetstakes.

 

The system is fine as it is imo.

 

Certain things are easy to sell for pure, granted; aussies and promos, but generally overpay isn't taken. 

Any hat is going to take some effort to resell, andso overpay is generally accepted, don't change a perfectly good rule for a few special snowflakes

[Chuffs (NT-O)]

ahh this issue was brought up on another thread, let me go see if I can find it

 

iirc polar said that it's a case by case, where it's up to the suggestor to determine whether or not a trade was made for taste or profit (i.e. you wouldnt apply overpay if someone offered a burning honchos on your 3rd gen robo hat because it's a direct and obvious upgrade), or if a hat sells easily for pure (i.e. burning rack), but frankly, no one does this. I don't know anymore, this is an issue that's popped up on high tiers where someone would buy a hat for keeps and wouldnt apply overpay on their sale because of it, and the comments would flip. They would then have to take a 50+ key hit on a hat they bought because they wanted. The logic behind overpay was that you have to pay more in unusuals to get a hat, but in a market where it's impossible to sell hats for full price and people often just offer around bp.tf price using it as a guideline, it causes for stuff to be lowered purely because of overpay.

Then why do suggestors apply the 10% overpay all the time? Would it really hurt them to just get verification from either or both traders? Or even wait to see if the hat is being resold?

[polar]

Here is the problem with not using overpay.

 

A golden pan sells for 1100-1200 keys pure consistently. A scorching view sells for 1150 in unusuals after many months on the market. Is the view "worth" as much as the pan?

 

Consider the beams or purple energy modest or beams stash or scorching stash. I take those as pure equivalents when they are offered to me. Would you value them the same as a mallard gibus or sulphurous gibus even though the gibus sold for the same amount as a purple energy modest except in unusuals?

 

Time to sale and what it sold for makes a huge difference in an item "value." In an ideal world, we differentiate these things somehow. Michael and I have said in the past we would like data on pure sales of a hat, when it last sold, for how much, and how long it took, all of these laid out in a table so people can compare apples to apples (sales for keys with other sales for keys).

 

But in the absence of such a system, we have the next best thing. All sales are laid out explicitly in suggestions. You can see all this data yourself. Part of the problem is that people want to convert all this information into one number to give a hat a "value." But that's really tough to do. So our way of doing that as best we can is to apply a small amount of overpay on non-pure sales. To really get a hat's value, you should look at the suggestion and identify all those important characteristics.

[Chuffs (NT-O)]

I still don't see how hat prices are being slaughtered. 

 

10% is more than fair as overpay. A collector wouldn't care what his hat is priced at, especially if it's 1:1.

 

This allows manipulation and more messed up prices. 

 

If there's multiple of the hat on the market, and multiple says, it wouldn't be fair to not apply overpay on one, not to to mention the amount effort needed.

1 week cooldowns allow traders to abusive the price of heavily outdated hats to lesser knowing traders or stuff like sweetstakes.

 

The system is fine as it is imo.

 

Certain things are easy to sell for pure, granted; aussies and promos, but generally overpay isn't taken. 

 

Any hat is going to take some effort to resell, andso overpay is generally accepted, don't change a perfectly good rule for a few special snowflakes

Kuuko, it's not even the 10% overpay by itself, it's also resuggesting hats based on trades for taste rather than profit. because it hurts the other sellers. I took a nearly 200 key hit with my cloudy samureye, when I was trying to resell it shortly after, but the suggestor was too stubborn to care. Check my steam profile description to see what she said.

[Kevin the Chicken God]

Then why do suggestors apply the 10% overpay all the time? Would it really hurt them to just get verification from either or both traders? Or even wait to see if the hat is being resold?

because if someone sees you didnt apply overpay, commenters go into a hive mind and are kinda wild, since the rules dictate you should apply overpay. There are certain rules for collectors, but I dont recall any of them applying to overpay. And getting confirmation for each sale is usually unnecessary, especially since 90% of people will say they didnt overpay since it would save them a few keys

[Chuffs (NT-O)]

because if someone sees you didnt apply overpay, commenters go into a hive mind and are kinda wild, since the rules dictate you should apply overpay. There are certain rules for collectors, but I dont recall any of them applying to overpay. And getting confirmation for each sale is usually unnecessary, especially since 90% of people will say they didnt overpay since it would save them a few keys

That's what I'm saying tho, change the rules. Therefore the commenters wont go haywire.

[Kuuko-San]

Kuuko, it's not even the 10% overpay by itself, it's also resuggesting hats based on trades for taste rather than profit. because it hurts the other sellers. I took a nearly 200 key hit with my cloudy samureye, when I was trying to resell it shortly after, but the suggestor was too stubborn to care. Check my steam profile description to see what she said.

 

Explain the situation, because my head hurt from getting a 1/2 explanation.

 

Some things are hard as balls to sell, for example your Cloudy Samureye.

[Chuffs (NT-O)]

Explain the situation, because my head hurt from getting a 1/2 explanation.

 

Some things are hard as balls to sell, for example your Cloudy Samureye.

I just dont think you should slap on 10% overpay factor every trade.

 

Let's say I have a 100 key hat, and i trade it for a similar 100 key hat i like better, but it needs a price suggestion. Boom, its gonna get 10% off, so now it;s 90 keys.

Now I have a 90 key hat and I want to trade it away for another hat I like, maybe even with 2-3 keys overpay in sweets.

Another 10% thrown on, valuing it at roughly 82-83 keys.

It's exponential decrease in price, based off of pure taste of the trade.

[Happysedits]

edit: I POSTED A REPLY TWICE GOD DAMMIT

[Happysedits]

i made a thread about overpay rule too in past, i dont like it too tho, my thing is that unusuals loses values by that  too, completely the same you said here:

 

I just dont think you should slap on 10% overpay factor every trade.

Let's say I have a 100 key hat, and i trade it for a similar 100 key hat i like better, but it needs a price suggestion. Boom, its gonna get 10% off, so now it;s 90 keys.

Now I have a 90 key hat and I want to trade it away for another hat I like, maybe even with 2-3 keys overpay in sweets.

Another 10% thrown on, valuing it at roughly 82-83 keys.
It's exponential decrease in price, based off of pure taste of the trade.

[LaughingLollipop]

the fundamental idea of overpay in a 1 for 1 trade is illogical

 

if a hat is traded for another or another valued at plus minus 5% total value its extremely silly to call one hat worth MORE than the other

 

also remember that overpay works backwards.

 

guy lowballs > gets accepted the hat he offered on goes DOWN!

guy with valuable hat wants another hat and offers for > his hat 100%

 

I think I can safely say without data that the vast majority of trades offered are lowballs.

Refer to all of tf2 outpost and all buy orders on this site.

 

 

Now lets talk about 10% overpay. Take a minute think to yourself, if I had 100 keys and I wanted the most bp.tf average value I could get how much could I get?

I'd wager you could go 125 keys with no effort, 150 seems within reach given a bit of time and effort.

 

So 10% overpay? Bull shit.

Pure equivalence is a minimum of 25% demarcated. If not more.

The higher the price, the higher the discrepancy.

 

And with a stated goal of establishing reliable, accurate pure equivalncies this site is doing a piss poor job of recognizing the difference between sales for pure, sales for money and sales for hats.

10% is a joke.

 

As for that desire, lets take a minute and appreciate the 420 key eof stash. Where the fuck was the discretion on that one?

Discretion is an ambiguity that can easily be hidden behind. Its code for "we do whatever the fuck we want and claim it was the right thing"

 

 

 

 

But srsly guys, come run to the defense of your favorite site; bash me, call me a witch. Cry your eyes out.

I'm a o k selling you guys 100 key cancers at 60 key quicksales.

Thanks bp.tf!

[Zapperzz]

- snip -

 

I agree with a lot of what you said, the main issue I see in suggesting these days is people don't really treat bp.tf as pure prices even though that is what they are supposedly going for... and if they are going for that 10% is not good enough.  And if they aren't going for that, then we shouldn't treat pure sales as what our suggestion is based around.  If we keep doing that hats will get lower and lower until unusuals crash (again).  I brought this up to Polar and he had a pretty logical response but I have forgoten it.  I still think something needs to change.  I also mostly agree with the OP.