My opinion on unusual suggestions.

[Happysedits]

So, i've got to unusual suggesting, and know the rules of it, and how it works now. And i dont think its perfect. First of all, how do you make profit in unusual suggesting? Buy quicksells. You buy quicksell and then when someone suggests he sugegst the quicksell and your profit is kinda gone. D: Second, 0.9 rule. Doesnt it make the unusual less worth? I dont think its good idea to use it really. A lot of times in sugegstions you apply 0.9 rule, and in reality, buyer of the unusual didnt overpay, but the seller did, so it make it kinda not accurate :/

 

This is my opinion. I am not angry at anyone or anything, this is just what i think.

[Lib3l]

You shouldn't be profiting off any suggesting, that's basically price manipulation.

Also you don't use quicksales in suggestions

[Happysedits]

You shouldn't be profiting off any suggesting, that's basically price manipulation.

Also you don't use quicksales in suggestions

i dont profit of that (only when lowering new taunt but shh) but not off unusuals

im just saying this about ther people

they see quicksell, buy it for 25% off bp.tf price, and then suggester suggest smaller price, so the profit is gone you know

[Gent♥]

they see quicksell, buy it for 25% off bp.tf price, and then suggester suggest smaller price, so the profit is gone you know

You replied to what toffee said, but evidently didn't read it.

 

Quicksales are invalid evidence in unusuals suggestions. An unusual's price cannot be dropped based on a quicksell.

 

Also Overpay is applied because every seller under the sun asks for it and accounts for it when valuing unusual offers, so why shouldn't we? Be glad it's only 10 percent.

[Kevin the Chicken God]

Also Overpay is applied because every seller under the sun asks for it and accounts for it when valuing unusual offers, so why shouldn't we? Be glad it's only 10 percent.

just because they ask for it doesn't mean it happens, sometimes you'll sell at even for a change in demand or look, it shouldn't mean your unusual should be worth less

[Gent♥]

just because they ask for it doesn't mean it happens, sometimes you'll sell at even for a change in demand or look, it shouldn't mean your unusual should be worth less

 

If it's evident it was a 1:1 for that reason, I don't apply overpay. But dropping all the exceptions onto somebody new to unusuals suggestions doesn't seem wise, don'tcha think?

[Happysedits]

If it's evident it was a 1:1 for that reason, I don't apply overpay. But dropping all the exceptions onto somebody new to unusuals suggestions doesn't seem wise, don'tcha think?

i dont mean quikcsales that sold in less than 24 hours

i mean epopele that started unusual trading and saw this http://www.tf2outpost.com/user/693149

so they desie to buy something and they saw bp.tf price went down because of they pushrage of frost discounted item

 

just feels weird to me :/

[Gent♥]

i dont mean quikcsales that sold in less than 24 hours

i mean epopele that started unusual trading and saw this http://www.tf2outpost.com/user/693149

so they desie to buy something and they saw bp.tf price went down because of they pushrage of frost discounted item

 

If it didn't quicksell, it's not a quicksell, so it's fine to use as proof.

If it didn't sell quickly at a value significantly below bp.tf price, that's just proof the bp.tf price was inaccurate.

 

I don't see what's so hard to get about this... though, I have been doing this for ages, I guess. 

[(ง ͠° ͟ل ͡°)ง]

You shouldn't be profiting off any suggesting, that's basically price manipulation.

Also you don't use quicksales in suggestions

I have seen several suggestions where quicksales were used. For instance I quickbought a unusual gibus a few months ago, and saw the very same sale used in the suggestions. It was stated a a quicksell and was used as the lowest part of the range.

 

I can understand them being used if it took weeks to sell at "quicksell price".

[Gent♥]

I have seen several suggestions where quicksales were used. For instance I quickbought a unusual gibus a few months ago, and saw the very same sale used in the suggestions. It was stated a a quicksell and was used as the lowest part of the range.

 

It shouldn't have been accepted, and you should have commented.

 

...Unless you did, in which case the moderators evidently decided it wasn't a quicksell. Which is unfortunate for you.

[Happysedits]

It shouldn't have been accepted, and you should have commented.

 

...Unless you did, in which case the moderators evidently decided it wasn't a quicksell. Which is unfortunate for you.

hmhmhmhm

still the 0.9 rule

in my opinion it make items lose their real value sometimes, idk

[Gent♥]

hmhmhmhm

still the 0.9 rule

in my opinion it make items lose their real value sometimes, idk

 

There are times when it's not viable to apply it. If you explain your decision with valid reasons, it'll be fine.

 

However these instances are few and far between. I'm sorry you feel that way, but that's just the way things go.

[DIEgo]

i dont profit of that (only when lowering new taunt but shh) but not off unusuals

im just saying this about ther people

they see quicksell, buy it for 25% off bp.tf price, and then suggester suggest smaller price, so the profit is gone you know

Quicksale is when a hat is sold in a very short ammount of time. I think what you're talking about is mostly of outdated overpriced hats, if people have to require to quicksellers to get rid of the hat maybe it's not worth what bp.tf says anymore and that's the quickbuyer's problem.

 

And 99% of traders ask for overpay if noy paying pure, that's why the 0.9 rule goes on every suggestion, and it's only applied when the hat you're suggesting wasn't offered to another hat.

[Taconinja]

There are times when it's not viable to apply it. If you explain your decision with valid reasons, it'll be fine.

 

Not really, I've commented on shit like that before and they tell me im wrong. Like, on the burning waxy suggestion a while ago, my trade SPECIFICALLY SAID "no overpay required" they told me the trade had to be capped because I had a discounted price for PayPal. Like, no shit it's less than what I sold it for because its fucking real money, but they don't give a shit.

[ShadowMan]

Unusuals do nothing but lose value as time flow (let's ignore unnecessary random hype or misc-turning, right?). They never were even closer to pure, and never will. Without 0.9 rule they'll be overinflated. If i would gather all my evidence in the past 10 suggestions, >60% of deals were unusual:unusual.

Of course i'll ask for pure mainly since i can buy anything with pure, but in case of getting an unusual of the same value, but different hat\effect or even class, i have nothing but to resell it again. Guess why we use banknotes instead of raw barter? Right.

 

"You'll leave with hat you want, i'll leave with the hat i'll need to resell". - Someone somewhere about overpay discussion 2015.

[Hexlicious]

*Grabs Popcorn*

[Gren]

So, i've got to unusual suggesting, and know the rules of it, and how it works now. And i dont think its perfect. First of all, how do you make profit in unusual suggesting? Buy quicksells. You buy quicksell and then when someone suggests he sugegst the quicksell and your profit is kinda gone. D: Second, 0.9 rule. Doesnt it make the unusual less worth? I dont think its good idea to use it really. A lot of times in sugegstions you apply 0.9 rule, and in reality, buyer of the unusual didnt overpay, but the seller did, so it make it kinda not accurate :/

 

This is my opinion. I am not angry at anyone or anything, this is just what i think.

 

I don't mean to ruffle any feathers here, but this comment does raise some (more or less) valid points:  

 

- Sometimes a quicksell takes longer than average to sell.  Could just be a slow period, the usual buyers are out of pure, or the price isn't quite low enough to be an insta quicksell (e.g. 20% off) but also not high enough to be full price.  I don't follow suggestions closely enough to know that such factors are always considered, but it could pose a slight problem. 

 

- Overpay:  "A lot of times in sugegstions you apply 0.9 rule, and in reality, buyer of the unusual didnt overpay, but the seller did, so it make it kinda not accurate :/"   

 

There is something very valid here about pricing, and it's the fact that traders have different skill levels.  An experienced trader will never overpay as the seller (except for maybe in select circumstances where he gets the chance to grab something very rare and special).  A novice trader however could probably be persuaded to overpay (I can't count how many times negotiations failed because the buyer was totally convinced that I should be overpaying, not him or her.)  So let's say there are two hats on the market, we're both asking for 80 keys.   Seller 1 is inexperienced and ends up trading for a 70 key hat, because he's been manipulated into overpaying.  Seller 2 is experienced and won't let his hat go for less than 90 keys in hats.   There hasn't been any recent sales except for the 70 key sale, so the suggestion would be 70*0.9 = 63.    So now seller 2 suffers because of seller 1's inexperience.   The system isn't perfect.  

[Happysedits]

*Grabs Popcorn*

LOL, made my day

 

I don't mean to ruffle any feathers here, but this comment does raise some (more or less) valid points:  

 

- Sometimes a quicksell takes longer than average to sell.  Could just be a slow period, the usual buyers are out of pure, or the price isn't quite low enough to be an insta quicksell (e.g. 20% off) but also not high enough to be full price.  I don't follow suggestions closely enough to know that such factors are always considered, but it could pose a slight problem. 

 

- Overpay:  "A lot of times in sugegstions you apply 0.9 rule, and in reality, buyer of the unusual didnt overpay, but the seller did, so it make it kinda not accurate :/"   

 

There is something very valid here about pricing, and it's the fact that traders have different skill levels.  An experienced trader will never overpay as the seller (except for maybe in select circumstances where he gets the chance to grab something very rare and special).  A novice trader however could probably be persuaded to overpay (I can't count how many times negotiations failed because the buyer was totally convinced that I should be overpaying, not him or her.)  So let's say there are two hats on the market, we're both asking for 80 keys.   Seller 1 is inexperienced and ends up trading for a 70 key hat, because he's been manipulated into overpaying.  Seller 2 is experienced and won't let his hat go for less than 90 keys in hats.   There hasn't been any recent sales except for the 70 key sale, so the suggestion would be 70*0.9 = 63.    So now seller 2 suffers because of seller 1's inexperience.   The system isn't perfect.  

thats what im trying to say

[AiR²³]

The biggest joke with high tier unusual suggestions is not making a difference between unusual trades and sales for pure.

 

Many traders just go by the prices listed on bp.tf, even for higher tier hats, it is a fact.

 

Then you have a hat that rarely sells but one time it finally gets sold for 500 keys. Pure keys. And bp.tf lists it at 500 keys.

 

On the other hand, you have loads of hats that continue to sell for what supposedly is "500 keys in unusuals". And bp.tf lists those at 500 keys, too.

 

So you have 2 hats with the same price yet one sold for 500 pure, this means it would have most likely sold for 700 in unusuals.

And you have one hat that sold for 500 in unusuals but it could never, ever sell for 500 pure keys.

 

This was a problem back when buds were still a thing, too. You had  first gen Team Captains selling for 30 Earbuds and at the same time some third gen or robo Crone's Dome selling for "30 earbuds in third gens" and they had the same price tag.

[Gren]

The biggest joke with high tier unusual suggestions is not making a difference between unusual trades and sales for pure.

 

Many traders just go by the prices listed on bp.tf, even for higher tier hats, it is a fact.

 

Then you have a hat that rarely sells but one time it finally gets sold for 500 keys. Pure keys. And bp.tf lists it at 500 keys.

 

On the other hand, you have loads of hats that continue to sell for what supposedly is "500 keys in unusuals". And bp.tf lists those at 500 keys, too.

 

So you have 2 hats with the same price yet one sold for 500 pure, this means it would have most likely sold for 700 in unusuals.

And you have one hat that sold for 500 in unusuals but it could never, ever sell for 500 pure keys.

 

This was a problem back when buds were still a thing, too. You had  first gen Team Captains selling for 30 Earbuds and at the same time some third gen or robo Crone's Dome selling for "30 earbuds in third gens" and they had the same price tag.

 

This is definitely another problem.  The suggested price of an unusual is supposed to represent the amount of pure it can get.  But that hasn't been true for a long, long time.  To your example above, 500 keys >>>>>>>>> 500 keys in unusuals.  There is massive difference and it's not properly accounted for, except for the overpay of 10% is removed when the payment was in full pure.  

[polar]

Sometimes a quicksell takes longer than average to sell.  Could just be a slow period, the usual buyers are out of pure, or the price isn't quite low enough to be an insta quicksell (e.g. 20% off) but also not high enough to be full price.  I don't follow suggestions closely enough to know that such factors are always considered, but it could pose a slight problem.

 

Outliers are defined by deviation from the mean, not the time it takes to sell. I don't put too much stock in the amount of time it takes to sell a hat. Sometimes you get lucky. Sometimes a trade is poorly bumped. The most important measuring stick is how the sale relates to other sales and offers. That's not to say that it is completely ignored. If a hat sells in a day for pure, the suggester should definitely look carefully at other sales and offers to make sure it isn't an outlier.

 

On the other hand, you have loads of hats that continue to sell for what supposedly is "500 keys in unusuals". And bp.tf lists those at 500 keys.

 

This is a very real problem on high tiers. Matters a lot less on low tiers. Fortunately, most high tier traders are well aware of this and realize that the listed bp.tf price does not attempt to value high tier hats. We report high tier prices purely as a curiosity for traders. For high tier hats, I look at the suggestions to see if it actually sold for pure or not. The suggestions offer more value than just a number. They show the actual sale.

 

I've thought a lot about alternatives and actually proposed some ideas like listing two prices on hats - one based on pure sales and one based on non-pure sales. But I don't think we'll be incorporating those into our system. Unusual pricing is convoluted as it is.

[Zapperzz]

I've thought a lot about alternatives and actually proposed some ideas like listing two prices on hats - one based on pure sales and one based on non-pure sales. But I don't think we'll be incorporating those into our system. Unusual pricing is convoluted as it is.

I'm glad you and other people think about this too.   I think the biggest problem in unusual suggestions is how it very based and molded around pure.  The whole idea is to capture the hats pure value, however almost NO ONE takes the backpack.tf value as a pure value, it is more of a value in unusuals with slight overpay. 

 

You know how we do minis for unusuals?  Well if we were to do a mini on the pure that unusuals sometimes sell for, it could have a value of normally 10% - 40% more in unusuals, which would change the value of the sale drastically.

 

Basically we're pricing stuff on backpack.tf based on pure, which seems a bit wrong these days because no one treats backpack.tf unusual prices as pure prices, but since we are doing it that way, the current amount of unusual overpay isn't enough to completely capture pure values.  Which is good because if it was people would still sell for less than bp.tf price in pure, which would drive all unusuals into the ground.

 

I think a way to fix this is to stop emphasizing that we're looking for the pure value.  This would stop multiple things

A. Capping based on B/os  (Many people these days have a B/O in pure and a B/O in unusuals, when I'm trading if I receive a pure offer of about 90% of my unusuals value, I will insta-accept it, even if I'm not quickselling.  Simply because pure is worth so much more than unusuals, I know I can very easily get 20 - 40% more out of that pure in unusuals)

B. Lowering an unusual based on low pure sales that took a few more days than a normal QS.  I once did a suggestion with only pure sales (that seemed quicksell-ish, and it got accepted) http://backpack.tf/vote/id/556ae46bb98d8803418b45d2 I didn't look into any other sales, maybe it was selling for 90ish in unusuals at the time as well,?

[Fee Too Pee]

Just an opinion , but there should be a rule that for how long sold for pure is considered quicksale or not, and make it different for high tier one. i mean 10 keys unusual sold for 8 for 1 week maybe is not a quicksale but 100 key unusual sold for 80 in 1 week can be considered as a quicksale.

[Gren]

 

I've thought a lot about alternatives and actually proposed some ideas like listing two prices on hats - one based on pure sales and one based on non-pure sales. But I don't think we'll be incorporating those into our system. Unusual pricing is convoluted as it is.

 

Ever thought about doing another valuation system - not based on pure - along with the current one?  I'm picturing a fairly simple X and Y axis system, on X, you've got the tier of the hat (it would have to be a spectrum though, it couldn't just be 4 possible values) and on the Y you have the tier of the effect (again, on a spectrum, not just low, mid, high and god).   So for example, you'd have a hat that ends up being 6.5 out of 10 on the X axis and 3 out of a possible 10 on the Y axis.  That of course only makes sense in relation to other hats, as opposed to the pure system.   

 

I think a system like this is obviously biased in favour of more experienced traders, seeing how it would leave a lot of room for interpretation.  But even for the most inexperienced of traders, it could be used as a helpful additional tool, in parallel with the existing model.  

[polar]

snip

 

The problem remains that all hats are different. The experienced trader knows to check the actual suggestion instead of going off the listed value alone. This includes looking at how old the sales are, how many were on the market at the time of the suggestion vs currently, the nature of the sales (pure vs not), and how long the hats took to sell. All of these factor into a hats actual value. Unfortunately, there is no way to put all this information into one number. However, the REAL value of bp.tf is that all this information is in each suggestion. You just have to click on the suggestion to see the complete sales.

 

Your comment about "no one takes bp.tf values in pure" isn't exactly accurate. I take the bp price of the burning tossle, burning phantom, scorching stash, burning stash, etc as their pure value along with a lot of low tiers because they sell for those prices in pure easily, and I have no problem selling my hats for pure because I only trade for hats that I know sell easily for pure. The ONLY way to standardize values is relative to pure, unfortunately. Sales in items and especially other unusuals vary greatly from hat to hat. Expectations of overpay vary across all hats, and there just isn't any way to standardize this.

 

snip

 

The way I see it, the experienced traders don't really need a pricelist in the first place. They already know how to really use it (look at the date of the last suggestion, look at the actual sales in the last suggestion, etc). I'd prefer to keep things in simpler terms for the people who are less experienced. Putting our valuations in anything other than keys will probably be too confusing.