The Wager

[Teeny Tiny Cat]

That is not actually what I asked you, but ok. Your contribution to the thread is fine/interesting but it's not a discussion I'm particularly bothered about so I'm going to stop replying here and let you have it with someone else (if anyone else is interested.)

[Heated Bread]

Oh, were you asking about what I believe personally?  I'm sorry, your questions don't seem all that clear to me.

[BlaqkAudio]

I think that is the reason. "Typical for Atheists" bla bla. Your counter is the same thing that you are complaining about. "Us" generalizing Christians/Those with religious beliefs. I don't think I am  similar to very many aethiests, or agnostics. I think that your comment is just as derailing as anything else that has been said. That is the reason things like this get locked. Comments like yours turn it into atheist vs christian and then crap hits the fan.

Comments like mine lock threads? Yeah right. Nowhere am I even trying to start a flame war. Merely pointing out something that's already been done. I did not say every atheist was like that. I'm saying that this is something you would see 99% of the time someone is asking a question similar to this, one person (usually the first poster) has to start the atheist vs christian thing that you said completely ignoring the question at all. The person that posts that provokes this type of shit. Refer to almost every single thread/religious video on the internet and look for that instigator. Anyways, I'm not going to argue about this. I respect what you believe in. If I offended you, I apologize. Didn't mean it that way.

[TheTruth]

I made a status about this earlier, but I feel it wouldn't be out of place here:

 

"If one person has an imaginary friend, schizophrenia. If it occurs in mass numbers, religion." 

[CUD]

Pascal's Wager is illogical. If you do not believe in God then surely God would know this so any pretending through church going or reciting of prayers wont change the fact that you're just doing it for the chance that God exists. Is pretending to believe enough then? Does God just want people to say some prayers a certain amount of times to get into heaven? What's the real fee for eternal life?

 

Point is, this is just nonsense.

 

Personally, I bypass it mainly because I'm not "betting on God"; I know he exists. That's me.

 

That's not how this works...

 

You can't know something like that, just like how I can't know that there's an invisible man following you around everywhere you go no matter how much I tell myself he's there it's just not true. You can't know something without proof, you can believe it but belief only makes something true to the believer/s and does not change reality.

[A Cyan Stone in Mustard]

How can you know that he exists when others claim that they know that he does not exist?

 

People don't believe in the moon landing or think that the world is flat

[Gent♥]

Pascal's Wager is basically like refined Agnosticism, isn't it?

 

In which case I'm all for it.

 

It's not that I don't believe in God, I've just got more important shit to do.

[Bae Be]

It's not that I don't believe in God, I've just got more important shit to do.

^^ true dat lmao

[CUD]

It's not that I don't believe in God, I've just got more important shit to do.

 

So you believe in God then?

[Gent♥]

So you believe in God then?

I don't believe in him. I don't not believe in him. Both of those responses require me to care.

 

If he exists? Great! If he doesn't exist? I've not lost anything.

[CUD]

I don't believe in him. I don't not believe in him. Both of those responses require me to care.

 

If he exists? Great! If he doesn't exist? I've not lost anything.

 

Oh, okay. So you don't believe in him then.

[Gent♥]

Oh, okay. So you don't believe in him then.

 

You're not getting it. You can't just divide people up into two neat little camps.

 

He could very well exist. I just don't care.

[CUD]

You're not getting it. You can't just divide people up into two neat little camps.

 

He could very well exist. I just don't care.

 

If you don't care whether god exists or not then surely you do not believe he exists.

 

I'm not sure what statement you're trying to make by saying that you don't care. Have you not questioned the existence of a god? You just seem a little too concerned with labels or something. It seems odd to me that instead of questioning something you decide that you don't care despite that technically meaning that you don't believe in a god you refuse to accept that and instead tell me not to "divide people into two neat little camps."

[♠Derpeh♤]

If you don't care whether god exists or not then surely you do not believe he exists.

 

I'm not sure what statement you're trying to make by saying that you don't care. Have you not questioned the existence of a god? You just seem a little too concerned with labels or something. It seems odd to me that instead of questioning something you decide that you don't care despite that technically meaning that you don't believe in a god you refuse to accept that and instead tell me not to "divide people into two neat little camps."

 

It's perfectly fine to "not care" and it's very hard to categorize belief is isnt simply a yes or no answer. Your reply of "yes" would be based off something completely different from someone else. Eg, many people are catholic and believe in the existence of god but dont do church every week, while others would feel the need to go to confession if they did skip.

 

In regards to gent's response it's very simple. Whether god does exist or not doesnt really change how you live the Earth will keep spinning, the sun be rising and nothing really changes. So in essence whether god does exist it doesnt matter to you hence not bother thinking about it and caught up in debating constantly if god exists or not.  It's like trying to predict the flip of a coin you can be right or wrong, and either outcome it doesnt really matter.

 

What you think is believe in regards to God is your own interpretation and yours alone. To you believing that god exists may change how you act but to others they wouldnt care.

[Hyperqube]

Pascals wager, does have a problem with it: What if you're wrong?

 

Pascal assumes the choice: "either there a God, and all you need to do is believe", and "either there's no God, and believing is irrelevent". 

 

The argument is that you don't lose anything if you chose to believe in God -- and in that case it's logical to conclude believing is more optimal.

• God
  (believers: OK, atheists NOK)
• No god
  (believers: meh, atheists meh)

HOWEVER: Pascal's wager is a false choice: "you don't lose anything if you chose to believe in God" is the hidden assumption. The wager conveniently forgets that to include the other senario: what if you do lose if you believe in God? suppose it's actually another god that exists, and he only allows his believers & atheist into heaven - not those who believe in an other god

• Egocentric God (only my believers get into heaven)
  (EgoBelievers: OK, atheists NOK, VenBelievers NOK)
• No God
  (EgoBelievers: meh, atheists meh, VenBelievers meh)
• Vengeful God (all ppl, except those who believe in other gods, get into heaven)
  (EgoBelievers: NOK, atheists OK, VenBelievers OK)

 

----------------------

 

CUD: "If you don't care whether god exists or not then surely you do not believe he exists."

 

... no, not really. Allow me to ask, what was the last drink I drank - was it a Cola or a Fanta? Obviously you don't know this. Can you say you believe I drank Cola, or believe I drank Fanta, knowing that whatever you chose, it's very likely you were dead wrong? Could you say you don't believe I drank Fanta, and then try to categorize me in the people who drank Cola?

 

That (at least for me) is agnosticism. I'm not an atheist - by no means am I biased towards presuming there is no god. I don't belong in the group that says they know there's no god, I don't belong in the group that defaults to "no god".
But likewise, I'm not a theist - I don't claim to know there's a god, not will I default to "there's a god".

When I die, if there's nothing, then there's nothing. If God, Allah, Jahwee, Hades, ... is there to judge me, I'm hoping that however it is, they will judge me on my actions, in that I've lived a virtuous life - or at least attempted to - and that they will judge in my favor. If not - well, so be it.

[CUD]

It's perfectly fine to "not care" and it's very hard to categorize belief is isnt simply a yes or no answer. Your reply of "yes" would be based off something completely different from someone else. Eg, many people are catholic and believe in the existence of god but dont do church every week, while others would feel the need to go to confession if they did skip.

 

They still believe though. Going to church or not doesn't change what they believe in their mind.

 

In regards to gent's response it's very simple. Whether god does exist or not doesnt really change how you live the Earth will keep spinning, the sun be rising and nothing really changes. So in essence whether god does exist it doesnt matter to you hence not bother thinking about it and caught up in debating constantly if god exists or not.  It's like trying to predict the flip of a coin you can be right or wrong, and either outcome it doesnt really matter.

 

What you think is believe in regards to God is your own interpretation and yours alone. To you believing that god exists may change how you act but to others they wouldnt care.

 

I find it hard to believe that Gent hasn't actually questioned the existence of a god. He spent the time to come here and say "I don't care if there's a god or not", he cared enough to comment on how much he "doesn't believe" and "doesn't not believe" as if that means anything, while being overly concerned with being labeled as a believer or non-believer (or whatever). Seems like he's in denial more than anything, if he said he doesn't know I'd find that a bit more honest than so adamantly claiming that he doesn't care. Well claiming that you do know whether a god exists is completely dishonest in itself (unless you're hiding some evidence from the world) so to answer truthfully regarding the existence of a god would either be to say that you don't know or that one doesn't exist as both do not require proof.

 

The only way that me not believing in a god effects my life is that I sometimes discuss religion with people. I just can't see how someone could read about a god existing or not existing and then say "oh I don't care about this". It just seems odd to me.

 

 

Pascals wager, does have a problem with it: What if you're wrong?

 

Pascal assumes the choice: "either there a God, and all you need to do is believe", and "either there's no God, and believing is irrelevent". 

 

The argument is that you don't lose anything if you chose to believe in God -- and in that case it's logical to conclude believing is more optimal.

• God

  (believers: OK, atheists NOK)

• No god

  (believers: meh, atheists meh)

HOWEVER: Pascal's wager is a false choice: "you don't lose anything if you chose to believe in God" is the hidden assumption. The wager conveniently forgets that to include the other senario: what if you do lose if you believe in God? suppose it's actually another god that exists, and he only allows his believers & atheist into heaven - not those who believe in an other god

• Egocentric God (only my believers get into heaven)

  (EgoBelievers: OK, atheists NOK, VenBelievers NOK)

• No God

  (EgoBelievers: meh, atheists meh, VenBelievers meh)

• Vengeful God (all ppl, except those who believe in other gods, get into heaven)

  (EgoBelievers: NOK, atheists OK, VenBelievers OK)

 

That is true to an extent but that is due to Pascal's Wager being created regarding the Christian god with the assumption that it's an Egocentric one that will only take believers in. I suppose if you were just doubting whatever deity you believed in then it could apply to you but otherwise it's true that it's more complicated than just a certain god or no god. The wager being designed with a Christian god in mind was definitely a limitation of the wager so you raise a valid point.

 

CUD: "If you don't care whether god exists or not then surely you do not believe he exists."

 

... no, not really. Allow me to ask, what was the last drink I drank - was it a Cola or a Fanta? Obviously you don't know this. Can you say you believe I drank Cola, or believe I drank Fanta, knowing that whatever you chose, it's very likely you were dead wrong? Could you say you don't believe I drank Fanta, and then try to categorize me in the people who drank Cola?

 

That (at least for me) is agnosticism. I'm not an atheist - by no means am I biased towards presuming there is no god. I don't belong in the group that says they know there's no god, I don't belong in the group that defaults to "no god".

But likewise, I'm not a theist - I don't claim to know there's a god, not will I default to "there's a god".

When I die, if there's nothing, then there's nothing. If God, Allah, Jahwee, Hades, ... is there to judge me, I'm hoping that however it is, they will judge me on my actions, in that I've lived a virtuous life - or at least attempted to - and that they will judge in my favor. If not - well, so be it.

 

 

That depends on how you present your argument to me. In saying "I don't care about Cola or Fanta" are they not saying "I didn't drink Cola or Fanta"? Or do they not care about the drinks and still drank one of them?

 

I'm not sure that the 'Cola/Fanta' analogy fits all that well here. From the part you quoted of me, I was not saying making an assumption of Gent's beliefs but rather making a statement about his opposition to being labeled or categorised. You being agnostic means that you do not believe in a god, you don't believe there is one either but that doesn't change the fact that you don't. So why Gent is so opposed to accepting this I am unsure. "I don't care" and "I don't know" are two very different statements.

 

I'm not categorising agnostic into the group of atheist, I'm categorising them into the broader group of non-believer which is what agnostic is. If you do not know and you do not believe then you are not a believer.

 

That's fine, you can be agnostic. It's a more logical choice than believing in a deity or deities. I'm personally an agnostic atheist because while I accept that I do not know I also do not believe because it seems highly unlikely that a god exists, in the same way that I do not believe that fairies or ghosts exist.

[A Cyan Stone in Mustard]

If you don't care whether god exists or not then surely you do not believe he exists.

 

I'm not sure what statement you're trying to make by saying that you don't care. Have you not questioned the existence of a god? You just seem a little too concerned with labels or something. It seems odd to me that instead of questioning something you decide that you don't care despite that technically meaning that you don't believe in a god you refuse to accept that and instead tell me not to "divide people into two neat little camps."

 

I'm agnostic. I don't care either. Does he exist? Does he not exist? I don't care. It doesn't bother me. I'm not going to say he does exist, I'm not going to say he doesn't exist. 

 

I don't spend every second of every day thinking "Is god real or not?", I just don't care. I'm not going to be bothered with choosing. Yeah, I have obviously spent time thinking about it. The result is I just don't care, why should it matter? You're overreacting.

 

Can't you just accept that some people would rather not care to choose? Why are you hellbent on thinking Gent is atheist, me and Gent just don't care. It's as simple as that. To put this in perspective, it's the same as neutrality. This isn't a war, people don't have to pick sides.

[CUD]

I'm agnostic. I don't care either. Does he exist? Does he not exist? I don't care. It doesn't bother me. I'm not going to say he does exist, I'm not going to say he doesn't exist. 

 

I don't spend every second of every day thinking "Is god real or not?", I just don't care. I'm not going to be bothered with choosing. Yeah, I have obviously spent time thinking about it. The result is I just don't care, why should it matter? You're overreacting.

 

Can't you just accept that some people would rather not care to choose? Why are you hellbent on thinking Gent is atheist, me and Gent just don't care. It's as simple as that. To put this in perspective, it's the same as neutrality. This isn't a war, people don't have to pick sides.

 

I didn't say that he's an atheist. I said he is a non-believer, just as you are.

 

I do find it hard to see that perspective, that after questioning the existence or non-existence of a deity you just decide "I don't care". There is a difference between the agnosticism of "I don't know" and the willful avoidance of "I don't care".

[Heated Bread]

Some have chosen to call it apatheism to have the attitue of "I don't care" towards the god/gods question (apathy + theism = apatheism).  The apathetic person is technically an atheist as long as they lack any belief in the positive side of all the various god claims.  They would likewise technically be theistic if they did believe in at least one god, but could still consider themselves apathetic towards it and therefore still an apatheist.

[Gent♥]

I didn't say that he's an atheist. I said he is a non-believer, just as you are.

 

I do find it hard to see that perspective, that after questioning the existence or non-existence of a deity you just decide "I don't care". There is a difference between the agnosticism of "I don't know" and the willful avoidance of "I don't care".

 

There's a difference, but that doesn't mean I can't do both.

[A Cyan Stone in Mustard]

I didn't say that he's an atheist. I said he is a non-believer, just as you are.

 

I do find it hard to see that perspective, that after questioning the existence or non-existence of a deity you just decide "I don't care". There is a difference between the agnosticism of "I don't know" and the willful avoidance of "I don't care".

 

I'm not a non-believer. I'm not a believer. Don't tell people what they are, they know that better than you.

 

Being agnostic doesn't mean there is only one reason for doing so. It just means that you don't either believe in god or deny his existence, simple as that.

 

I don't know what the difference between non-believer and Atheist is. Both share the disbelief of god.

 

Some have chosen to call it apatheism to have the attitue of "I don't care" towards the god/gods question (apathy + theism = apatheism).  The apathetic person is technically an atheist as long as they lack any belief in the positive side of all the various god claims.  They would likewise technically be theistic if they did believe in at least one god, but could still consider themselves apathetic towards it and therefore still an apatheist.

 

This just makes it too technical, what's your point

[Heated Bread]

I'm not a non-believer. I'm not a believer. Don't tell people what they are, they know that better than you.

 

Being agnostic doesn't mean there is only one reason for doing so. It just means that you don't either believe in god or deny his existence, simple as that.

 

I don't know what the difference between non-believer and Atheist is. Both share the disbelief of god.

 

 

This just makes it too technical, what's your point

 

It's important to have a common understanding of what words mean so that we're all talking about the same thing.

 

You seem to think agnosticism deals with belief when it's simply a position on knowledge.  You can be an agnostic atheist, for example (I am one).  They are not mutually exclusive.  You can also be an agnostic theist.  That would be someone who believes in a god but has the position that it's not possible to really know for sure whether they actually exist.

[A Cyan Stone in Mustard]

It's important to have a common understanding of what words mean so that we're all talking about the same thing.

 

You seem to think agnosticism deals with belief when it's simply a position on knowledge.  You can be an agnostic atheist, for example (I am one).  They are not mutually exclusive.  You can also be an agnostic theist.

 

How does it not deal with belief? Agnosticism just deals with the position on the belief of god, not knowledge.

[Heated Bread]

How does it not deal with belief? Agnosticism has everything to do with belief.

 

No, it has to do with knowledge, hence the root of the word.  Gnosis.  It's prefixed with 'a' which denotes that it is without.  Examples would be sexual vs asexual, biogenesis vs abiogenesis, and gnostic vs agnostic.  In each case, the word is prefixed with 'a' to indicate that it means the absence of that thing.

[A Cyan Stone in Mustard]

No, it has to do with knowledge, hence the root of the word.  Gnosis.  It's prefixed with 'a' which denotes that it is without.  Examples would be sexual vs asexual, biogenesis vs abiogenesis, and gnostic vs agnostic.  In each case, the word is prefixed with 'a' to indicate that it means the absence of that thing.

 

Definition:

noun

the doctrine or belief of an agnostic.