t0night Posted November 10, 2014 Share Posted November 10, 2014 You're ignoring context. If the word is not being used in a racist context, it's not racist. If someone is adding their own racial baggage to it when it wasn't used in a racist context, that's their own problem. If I understand your position correctly, it's that for "nigger", the context doesn't matter. It's always bad. In that case, you're guilty by your own standards because you've written the word "nigger" here. Nobody objected when you did it because we all understood that the context wasn't bad. But maybe that's not your position. Maybe your position is that we should always look at the word within a historical context with emphasis on slavery and racism. I reject that. I think we should acknowledge that historical context, but that part of healing means letting go and moving on. Refusing to move out of that mindset is harmful and counterproductive. so you're in the "i will wilfully ignore historical context in favour of my personal meaning" camp. blaming someone for the context they have for such a word is rude and disrespectful of their history. also, you don't need to apply any particular emphasis when examining what the word has been used for to see that it's borne out of a complete lack of respect or humanity. i'm not in favour of "moving on" from history when that history is still enacted, when people still use the word to discriminate and subject people. you're not just ignoring slavery, you're pretending that it's not still used to inflict damage, create and perpetuate harmful stereotypes, et cetera. tell me this; why is it so important to you to be able to call someone a nigger? your approach to this is so strange to me. you using the word does not change anything except to suggest that it's acceptable and it's a word that's okay to use in whatever situation you like, no matter what colour you are, and that dilutes, ignores, rewrites and appropriates black history all in one word. you are not being progressive by using it. also, i'm talking about calling anyone a "nigger", which is the use of the word in actual usage, as opposed to putting it in my post to discuss the word. the arrangement of letters is not inherently offensive and nobody would argue that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heated Bread Posted November 10, 2014 Share Posted November 10, 2014 so you're in the "i will wilfully ignore historical context in favour of my personal meaning" camp. No... I think we should acknowledge that historical context, but that part of healing means letting go and moving on. Refusing to move out of that mindset is harmful and counterproductive. Insisting that the word may always only be viewed in that single context is narrow minded, ignores reality in favor of a single narrative, and perpetuates division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
t0night Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 No... Insisting that the word may always only be viewed in that single context is narrow minded, ignores reality in favor of a single narrative, and perpetuates division. you're insisting on the domination of your own "context" over centuries of the word functioning as a key part of a language which oppressed and dehumanised an entire race and you think i'm ignoring reality? i think i'm just paying attention to the actually significant bit; i.e. the part which gives the word its power; the part which means you shouldn't use it flippantly. the word comes with those labels attached when a white person speaks it, that's pretty much unavoidable. i'm insisting on this viewing and hearing of it because there is no reason to forget that, least of all when it is still used in that way today. i don't see why that's narrow minded, i think it's narrow minded to insist that it's fine for you to use it if your own personal meaning is different. I think you should use language in a way that is aware of what your words have meant and continue to mean to people, in order to communicate effectively. how does it perpetuate division that you shouldn't use a word with horrible associations, purposes and effects? why is it so important to you that you are able to use this word which has those associations, purposes and effects? presumably you're not actually arguing that you can use it as an insult? you're saying it's fine for you to call someone "mah nigga" or whatever appropriation of the black english reclaimation you think is cool. the point is that when black people say it; it's reclaiming the word from the power dynamics it originally entailed. when you say it, you are saying "my personal context when i'm not using this explicitly offensively makes the fact that i'm putting my personal desire to use a cool/taboo word over the meaning and connotations of the word in general usage fine" which is certainly more narrow minded in my view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heated Bread Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 you're insisting on the domination of your own "context" I'm simply remaining open to the possibility that there are (and will be) acceptable uses of the word outside of its negative historical context. And there are. That's reality. The word itself is not evil. There is a lot of baggage around it, but it's baggage that people like you are choosing to continue carrying. Maybe 40-50 years ago I would agree with you because the majority of people would probably be still incapable of letting go of that baggage. I'm part of a generation that is very far removed from the historical context of the word which you are insisting that it remain trapped in, and I'm betting that you are too. 100-200 (or perhaps longer or maybe shorter... who knows) years from now, I doubt that anyone will be having this kind of conversation about it. Time will bear this one out on my side. Either the word will completely drop from usage or it'll take on new meanings like so many other words have. This is simply a natural part of the evolution of languages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
t0night Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 I'm simply remaining open to the possibility that there are (and will be) acceptable uses of the word outside of its negative historical context. And there are. That's reality. The word itself is not evil. There is a lot of baggage around it, but it's baggage that people like you are choosing to continue carrying. Maybe 40-50 years ago I would agree with you because the majority of people would probably be still incapable of letting go of that baggage. I'm part of a generation that is very far removed from the historical context of the word which you are insisting that it remain trapped in, and I'm betting that you are too. 100-200 (or perhaps longer or maybe shorter... who knows) years from now, I doubt that anyone will be having this kind of conversation about it. Time will bear this one out on my side. Either the word will completely drop from usage or it'll take on new meanings like so many other words have. This is simply a natural part of the evolution of languages. if you believe you're removed from the context in which nigger and other elements of language and culture and social infrastructure systemically oppress black people then i cannot possibly win this argument. if you believe that's not something that needs to be considered then there is a bigger underlying problem than your views on this word. i am not choosing to carry baggage or hold a grudge. i am choosing to be aware of the historic and continued use of language and systems which cause incredible suffering and restriction to human beings. you are not "remaining open to the possiblity of other meanings" you're trying to force it to mean something which it does not yet mean. you are not and should not be removed from the context of the word BECAUSE IT IS STILL USED AND BECAUSE RACISM IS STILL INCREDIBLY REAL. i'm not sure what time will bear out. i would be perfectly happy for time to bear me out so that it was never acceptable for a white person to call someone else a nigger, i would be more than happy for our language to be restricted in that tiny capacity as a linguistic memento of horrendous crimes and cultural problems which will almost certainly also persist for a very long time, especially while you believe you are "very far removed from them." your grandparents generation would almost certainly have contained the people laughing/swearing at/threatening violence against black students trying to join their colleges after segregation. that is not a long time. there are people alive today who were part of lynch mobs. wonder how they raised their children? i wonder if deeply ingrained cultural prejudices have vanished so easily as you imagine them to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heated Bread Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 if you believe you're removed from the context in which nigger and other elements of language and culture and social infrastructure systemically oppress black people then i cannot possibly win this argument. if you believe that's not something that needs to be considered then there is a bigger underlying problem than your views on this word. i am not choosing to carry baggage or hold a grudge. i am choosing to be aware of the historic and continued use of language and systems which cause incredible suffering and restriction to human beings. you are not "remaining open to the possiblity of other meanings" you're trying to force it to mean something which it does not yet mean. you are not and should not be removed from the context of the word BECAUSE IT IS STILL USED AND BECAUSE RACISM IS STILL INCREDIBLY REAL. i'm not sure what time will bear out. i would be perfectly happy for time to bear me out so that it was never acceptable for a white person to call someone else a nigger, i would be more than happy for our language to be restricted in that tiny capacity as a linguistic memento of horrendous crimes and cultural problems which will almost certainly also persist for a very long time, especially while you believe you are "very far removed from them." your grandparents generation would almost certainly have contained the people laughing/swearing at/threatening violence against black students trying to join their colleges after segregation. that is not a long time. there are people alive today who were part of lynch mobs. wonder how they raised their children? i wonder if deeply ingrained cultural prejudices have vanished so easily as you imagine them to. I just want to point out once again that I am not advocating people ignore the historical context, and I've said twice now that it should be acknowledged. I'm also not at all denying that racism exists. The problem I have with your point of view is that by insisting that the word can only be viewed in its negative historical context, you are perpetuating the view and treatment of black people as victims. You are basically saying that they must have special treatment because they are oppressed, and so everyone else has to walk on eggshells around them. You are also specifically singling out white people such as myself who have absolutely nothing to do with any of that historical context. Look, I know racism is real. Every person can be put into a group which some other group is racists towards, and this happens all over the world. It's not exclusively a black problem. But I'm willing to bet that you don't give a damn about racism against white people for example, probably because you view them as being socially and politically advantaged and you think that it is therefore justifiable to slander them and paint them as villains. If this is true, you're right that we can never agree. I'm white and I have never received any special privileges for being white. I have however been targeted on multiple occasions by asian gang members specifically because I am white and I was in the wrong area at the wrong time. BTW, don't worry, 1) no actual physical harm ever came to me because I am an incredibly fast runner and I did have one close call but luckily I ran into a cop who was standing in front of a movie theater which was enough to stop them from chasing me and 2) I'm not living in the same area anymore, so I'm pretty safe now. Anyway, nobody gives a damn about that, and it's because I'm white. The hypocrisy of it all is very evident to me. People talk about equality but what they really mean is special treatment for whoever can claim to be oppressed. I choose to not play the oppression olympics game. I'd rather just treat everyone as equals. So once again, by insisting that the word may only ever be viewed in its negative historical context and that white people cannot say it, you are perpetuating the view of black people as victims and white people as oppressors. I think this is shameful towards black people and harmful/hateful towards white people and only serves to divide rather than unite. To you this may seem like positive social justice, but to me it is sickness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DefNotNuz Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 I feel as though nigger falls along the lines of bitch. No one says that calling a woman a bitch is sexist so why should calling a black man a nigger be called racist? Also, if swears like bitch are not allowed on these forums I'd appreciate some one tell me so I can put in appropriate censors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gent♥ Posted November 11, 2014 Share Posted November 11, 2014 No one says that calling a woman a bitch is sexist pfffthahaha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
t0night Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 I just want to point out once again that I am not advocating people ignore the historical context, and I've said twice now that it should be acknowledged. I'm also not at all denying that racism exists. The problem I have with your point of view is that by insisting that the word can only be viewed in its negative historical context, you are perpetuating the view and treatment of black people as victims. You are basically saying that they must have special treatment because they are oppressed, and so everyone else has to walk on eggshells around them. You are also specifically singling out white people such as myself who have absolutely nothing to do with any of that historical context. Look, I know racism is real. Every person can be put into a group which some other group is racists towards, and this happens all over the world. It's not exclusively a black problem. But I'm willing to bet that you don't give a damn about racism against white people for example, probably because you view them as being socially and politically advantaged and you think that it is therefore justifiable to slander them and paint them as villains. If this is true, you're right that we can never agree. I'm white and I have never received any special privileges for being white. I have however been targeted on multiple occasions by asian gang members specifically because I am white and I was in the wrong area at the wrong time. BTW, don't worry, 1) no actual physical harm ever came to me because I am an incredibly fast runner and I did have one close call but luckily I ran into a cop who was standing in front of a movie theater which was enough to stop them from chasing me and 2) I'm not living in the same area anymore, so I'm pretty safe now. Anyway, nobody gives a damn about that, and it's because I'm white. The hypocrisy of it all is very evident to me. People talk about equality but what they really mean is special treatment for whoever can claim to be oppressed. I choose to not play the oppression olympics game. I'd rather just treat everyone as equals. So once again, by insisting that the word may only ever be viewed in its negative historical context and that white people cannot say it, you are perpetuating the view of black people as victims and white people as oppressors. I think this is shameful towards black people and harmful/hateful towards white people and only serves to divide rather than unite. To you this may seem like positive social justice, but to me it is sickness. you are advocating ignoring the context, or you don't understand the context yet, or you just don't care about the context, because you still believe it's important to use the word. I am not saying it can only be used in the way i've specifically said it shouldn't be used (i.e. by white people), why would i be saying that. I'm saying it is in the process of being reclaimed, and white people using it is not part of that process and does nothing for it. I am saying it needs to be reclaimed properly before we "move on" from the historical significance it has had and continues to have. while it is still used in the abuse sense we are certainly nowhere near the stage when you can use it just to be cool. I am not perpetuating black people as victims of anything but systemic racism, because that is true. You don't have to walk on eggshells, you just don't get to use a word which is still inherently about the domination of black people by white people in its meaning. I am not "singling out" white people, no other race gets a look in either, unless you are black, because then you are able to be part of reclaiming it because it is black people who are demeaned by it to start with. You have recieved special privilege all your life being white, and so have I, the difficulty is that it just seems normal to us. Having an average white person life is a privilege. Economic, cultural, educational, so much. To deny white privilege and acknowledge the statistical differences between blacks and whites in income, education, et cetera et cetera is to say that black people and white people are on a level playing field and yet black people are somehow fucking it up for themselves en masse, which is blatantly ignorant. Black people are victims of oppression, you admit this when you say that racism still exists. You should see this when you examine the statistical truth about wealth, employment, other important facets of life. To act to correct this is not "walking on eggshells" nor is it "hateful to white people", this is restoring the dignity and equality of fellow humans. If it means we as white people become relatively less well off, should we decide fuck it actually let's retain the huge imbalances because they suit us? Am I white-hating if I think it's more important to ensure a GENUINELY free and level playing field of opportunity, even if it means white people becoming relatively less well-off? I don't think so. INDIVIDUAL CASES MAY VARY. I'm sorry to hear that bad things have happened to you, but I'm also sorry that gang culture is such a problem amongst communities of people of colour; and why does that arise? because of lack of opportunity, because of disparity of wealth, because of disparity of attention and general giving-a-shit among those in power. I really don't see how it's sickness to ask you to not use a word that is hateful and harmful, even if you don't mean it to be. You can't just flip a switch and generate a new way of using the word because that also isn't how language evolves. I'm not hating white people, I quite like myself. I'm hating the perception that trying to balance out huge disparities is mollycoddling or babying or "special treatment" or white hating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaccinated Autist Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 I dont think its racist as long you use nigga instead of nigger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heated Bread Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 you are advocating ignoring the context, or you don't understand the context yet Will repeating myself yet again allow you to accept that I am not, or do you intend to continue pretending that I am regardless of anything I say? you still believe it's important to use the word No, I think it is important to open up to the fact that its usage can and does transcend the historical context of bigotry, racism, slavery, violent abuse, and hatred that you are so stubbornly preserving out of some misguided sense of social justice crusading by insisting that there is no acceptable usage of it by white people specifically because they are white, and they are therefore not allowed to have you or anyone else acknowledge that they can use it outside of that historical context. This very idea itself is racism. You are identifying 2 entire populations by the color of their skin and insisting they remain locked into roles defined by their skin color even though they themselves had nothing to do with it. You are being racist. And you think this is somehow positive racism. But it is racism nonetheless. I am not saying it can only be used in the way i've specifically said it shouldn't be used (i.e. by white people). why would I be saying that. I'm saying it is in the process of being reclaimed, Then we agree? and white people using it is not part of that process and does nothing for it. ... then we don't agree. Again, you're being racist. Your position is that any usage by a white person must only be viewed in the negative historical context, as if the white person is being racist. That itself is racist and closed-minded and counterproductive to healing, and perpetuates an attitude of division between white and black people. You are saying that people with black skin have one rule applied to them and people with white skin have another rule. You are doing this because you think it is justice to punish and censor white skinned people for crimes they themselves had nothing to do with. I am the son of an immigrant. My father came here from europe after the 2nd world war. My mother came from a poor mixed heritage family of irish, scottish, and cherokee. Even if I was the direct descendant of a slave owner, slavery still would have nothing to do with me. But I'm white, so your rule has to apply to me. That's fucking racist. I am saying it needs to be reclaimed properly before we "move on" from the historical significance it has had and continues to have. I agree, and part of that process is being open to other usages outside of that historical context. while it is still used in the abuse sense we are certainly nowhere near the stage when you can use it just to be cool. It would seem you aren't there yet, and I'd agree that most other people aren't either. Oh and the idea that swearing makes you cool is a juvenile attitude that most people grow out of. Just saying. I am not perpetuating black people as victims of anything but systemic racism, because that is true. You don't have to walk on eggshells, you just don't get to use a word which is still inherently about the domination of black people by white people in its meaning. I am not "singling out" white people, no other race gets a look in either, unless you are black, because then you are able to be part of reclaiming it because it is black people who are demeaned by it to start with. You have recieved special privilege all your life being white, and so have I, the difficulty is that it just seems normal to us. Having an average white person life is a privilege. Economic, cultural, educational, so much. To deny white privilege and acknowledge the statistical differences between blacks and whites in income, education, et cetera et cetera is to say that black people and white people are on a level playing field and yet black people are somehow fucking it up for themselves en masse, which is blatantly ignorant. Black people are victims of oppression, you admit this when you say that racism still exists. You should see this when you examine the statistical truth about wealth, employment, other important facets of life. To act to correct this is not "walking on eggshells" nor is it "hateful to white people", this is restoring the dignity and equality of fellow humans. If it means we as white people become relatively less well off, should we decide fuck it actually let's retain the huge imbalances because they suit us? Am I white-hating if I think it's more important to ensure a GENUINELY free and level playing field of opportunity, even if it means white people becoming relatively less well-off? I don't think so. INDIVIDUAL CASES MAY VARY. I'm sorry to hear that bad things have happened to you, but I'm also sorry that gang culture is such a problem amongst communities of people of colour; and why does that arise? because of lack of opportunity, because of disparity of wealth, because of disparity of attention and general giving-a-shit among those in power. I really don't see how it's sickness to ask you to not use a word that is hateful and harmful, even if you don't mean it to be. You can't just flip a switch and generate a new way of using the word because that also isn't how language evolves. I'm not hating white people, I quite like myself. I'm hating the perception that trying to balance out huge disparities is mollycoddling or babying or "special treatment" or white hating. My god there are SO many things wrong with what you're saying and it would take me at least another hour to sit here and address each one individually. Do you not see how your attitude can be considered racist? What's worse is that you seem to view it not as being racist but as being "progressive", and that the idea of imposing what you view as "social justice" based solely on the color of someone's skin (and not for example economic division or educational factors even though you acknowledged their existence) is somehow laudable and not at all problematic, even though it's just a new politically correct version of the kind of inequality and racism that you are framing it as being against. And you don't even want to acknowledge the fact that the word "nigger" also demeans white people, especially when viewed through your own lens! My god, man! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heated Bread Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 @coolrocks Upon further reflection, while I think I've done an excellent job in making a case for why I think you're wrong (*pats self on back* j/k), I recognize that no matter what, we're probably not going to see eye to eye on this. So I want to try and end our exchange on a positive note. I respect you, and i want to acknowledge that we apparently both want to see an end to racism wherever it can be found, and we both are in favor of equality. These two things just taken by themselves are very positive, even if we disagree about our views on how it can be achieved wherever it may or may not be lacking, and whether certain attitudes or behaviors are or are not fair/egalitarian or reasonable/rational. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTTgxq1JTqw Arguing with you has helped me to further explore and define my views. So I want to express my thanks to you for that. I'm also glad that we both have the freedom to openly disagree with eachother in the first place. Some people really don't have that freedom on a lot of issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vintage Jesus Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 Yes, nigger is a very hurtful word which has been used to step on black people. Dont be surprised if a black man doesn't like being called a nigger. However "nigga" is sorta a grey area, some thinks its ok to be called "nigga" others dont Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Dong Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 White trash honkey beaner chink sandnigger If anyone was offended then you got my point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheVenomWithin Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 I'm white, and tbh I know better than to use that word in public. You just need to know who you are talking to. I have close black friends that don't care, but that doesn't mean you should go around in public screaming "NIGGER! NIGGA!" So is the word bad? It can be if used in the wrong way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaqkAudio Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 Go to /b/ and you'll see how the word can be used in a racist way. It's all in the context, as previously said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
λngelღмander Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 I feel like this thread is an excuse to use that word on the forums for once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanner the Original Scout™ Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 I'm white, and tbh I know better than to use that word in public. You just need to know who you are talking to. I have close black friends that don't care, but that doesn't mean you should go around in public screaming "NIGGER! NIGGA!" So is the word bad? It can be if used in the wrong way. Is it really relevant as to what race you are? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.