Noh Sharking

[OverduePixels]

Well personally I don't think it's the community's job to enforce any part of that. Being able to negotiate our own prices and enjoy a free market is part of what makes tf2 trading fun. In my opinion the hatred of sharks comes from being butthurt that one didn't get the good deal someone else did. 

 

But anyhow, I still don't see how any of Julia's examples here are sharking nor how what Tiesto did was sharking. 

 

Exactly my same thought.

 

Negotiating is fine but sharkers usually persuades someone to believe that their item is cheap by providing fake sales/sellers or manipulating the seller basically lying over lying over lies until the seller believes him/her, but butthurt people starts crying and screaming that they got sharked even though the person who bought that item never attempted to persuade the user in any sort of way whatsoever. In fact the seller sold it to him/her for cheap.

[Julia Gillard the Honest]

But anyhow, I still don't see how any of Julia's examples here are sharking nor how what Tiesto did was sharking. 

 

Alrighty then everyone, so do have we a general agreement that if someone sells an unusual with the words, "I'm looking for 50 pure + 50 in unusuals" and then gets paid that, then that person wasn't sharked? If you say yes then do you believe that this is appropriate? http://backpack.tf/trust/76561197987062074

[Kevin the Chicken God]

Alrighty then everyone, so do have we a general agreement that if someone sells an unusual with the words, "I'm looking for 50 pure + 50 in unusuals" and then gets paid that, then that person wasn't sharked? If you say yes then do you believe that this is appropriate? http://backpack.tf/trust/76561197987062074

and thats why rep should be reportable

[Teeird]

...impossible to shark on SCM.... what is this

[Teeird]

Yeah, well, thats always something I've thought to be very interesting....Sharking is perfectly okay IRL, but do it in a video game over a pixels and everyone freaks out. 

Pawn Stars

[Julia Gillard the Honest]

and thats why rep should be reportable

 

I could possibly understand one person wanting to leave one of those comments there but I actually feel sorry for Tiensto because of that (and I know from hearing his voice on TF2-Trader that he's a fully grown adult). That's absolute raiding.

[whopz]

fair play to him for getting a savage deals. if i could buy a burning crones for 50 buds in junk i definitely would

[AwesomeMcCoolName]

He didn't use his admin status to get the unusual...at least not in the chat available. I mean, he did use it to get the unusual, but not really... 

 

He showed his admin tag to show that he's not a scammer. He didn't use it to convince him its a good deal or that he should do the trade or anything like that. So, nothing wrong with him saying he's an admin. 

 

Also, its not a shark anyway...the guy who sold it knows relative values--i.e. understands the concept that unusuals have value. Totally not a shark in anyway. 

[usually unusual]

Regarding the current Tiensto story: The current claim is that Tiensto sharked an unusual hat because the owner had stated a desired price and Tiensto bought it knowing that he was making a profitable purchase. We all know that I watch the Noh Mercy obsessively and, in particular, watch what gets paid for them.

 

So now I ask you: Do you believe that Neymar sharked? In his popular, trusted position he willingly bought that Noh nice and cheap. He wasn't deceptive at all but he bought it knowing that he'd be able to sell it for a massive profit. What did Tiensto do, again?

 

 

I won't involve myself in the other examples because I have no interest in researching what happened and know nothing about those trades.  

 

However, regarding Tiensto's trade and my trade, I have the following to say with one simple caveat:  I fully admit that I am holding Tiensto to an extremely high standard, that is, the standard i would hold myself to if I were in his shoes.  Also I will definitely delineate the stark difference between what he did and what I did (I know, Julia, that you employed the tongue-in-cheek method and didn't actually think I sharked anything, in fact you obviously don't think any of those examples were examples of sharking, but I'm going to just address it as if it were serious to show the difference).

 

1.  Don't call a girl a bitch because she refuses to bow down and shut up.  THAT is my problem with Tien.  The trading ethics and even the very definition of "sharking" is extremely difficult to pin down.  I still have issues with what he did and will lay them out now but my main issue, the prominent issue, and the issue that prompted me to block him and hurl junior high school curse words at him, is simply that I have a personal issue with guys talking to girls like that, especially an 18 year old girl when you're a 25 year old man.

 

2.  At the very point where the guy tells Tien what he wants, IN MY OPINION (that, I admit, may or may not reek of self-righteousness or excessive demand/expectation), it was his duty as a veteran admin of a hugely respected unusual trading server in which many high-tier unusual trades/crabs take place, to tell the guy "hey man, to be honest, you can probably get a lot more than that, are you sure? (asking with the implication that maybe he is quickselling)".  Instead the first greed bell starting ringing in his head and he got hooked.  So he offers 60 pure and shitty hats he overvalues (ghosts neckwear for 30 buds value my ass and that ugly robo bunsen he tried to get me to buy months ago and still can't sell) because hey, it is clearly as good as or comparable to what he asked, so I'm in the clear, right?!?  Oh and did I forget to mention, this is the clear point where Tien's smart brain puts 2 and 2 together and realizes this guy is obviously not keen on high tier unusual trading or how much the market spiked RECENTLY for god tier first gen all classes, especially crones and ke's.  So yes at this point, Tien knows he's dealing with someone who obviously doesn't know the value of his own hat, and instead of informing him or making a truly fair offer, he does the bare minimum to get by b/c like I said, the greed bells rang.

 

3.  But wait...a second chance emerges.  The guy comes back to him asking to trade the items back for each other b/c he really had no idea how much the crone's was worth and he regrets it.  Again, Tien's greed bell rings.  No he says.  BUt wait...if the trade were actually fair...wouldn't you as an admin not have that much issue with trading back for your items, after all it was supposedly fair, right?  So the values are right, a swap back as an admin who sees this person has come to him admitting his ignorance and admitting that if he had known the value he would not have traded...seems reasonable...no?  Well for me, not only would it have been reasonable, but it would have been right, and anything else wrong.

 

4.  Why is my buying the item off Steam Community Market different?  For two main reaons.  #1:  it very may well be completely purposeful.  you never know.  this person may have seen a rare cs go knife for that price and needed it instantly and would know the noh would sell instantly because that person was aware of the value.  i have often quicksold unusuals on steam market for immediate needs like that for items i was afraid i would lose.  i did this as recently as when the yellow belt misc update hit and i bought a bunch of belts and senseis online, but first quicksold a lot of unusuals.  #2:  I have NO sympathy for a person who goes into his possession, decides to sell something on an open market, and does zero research or poor research  before clicking a series of buttons and setting a price. That's just laziness and stupidity.

 

However, if you are seeking a person out to trade in a server and go to chat and just seamlessly go from point #2 to point #3 aforementioned above, then yes as an admin you have an obligation to be fair and when the obvious signs of his ignorance hit you, you should definitely be helpful rather than rapacious.  

 

Again, 2/3 are not as important reason 1 for my problem with Tien, but it still brings up some questions about his motives as a trader who carries an admin tag...at the very least.

 

 

 

I love yall though.

[usually unusual]

I could possibly understand one person wanting to leave one of those comments there but I actually feel sorry for Tiensto because of that (and I know from hearing his voice on TF2-Trader that he's a fully grown adult). That's absolute raiding.

 

Alrighty then everyone, so do have we a general agreement that if someone sells an unusual with the words, "I'm looking for 50 pure + 50 in unusuals" and then gets paid that, then that person wasn't sharked? If you say yes then do you believe that this is appropriate? http://backpack.tf/trust/76561197987062074

 

That's not fair at all.  As soon as bp.tf employed that system they knew they were giving that one-vote power to many individuals whose opinions may not be the most well-formed.  If anything, if it bothers him that much or if his friends care that much, they should just plus rep him on that same page and explain why and restore his reputation if they deem that fit.

 

If they gave personal reasons though I would say they are wrong and should be deleted.  But they all mention their interpretation of sharking.

[usually unusual]

monkey if you read this stuff dont' be mad at me, i intended on not saying anything more about the matter and moving on but my name was mentioned in this thread and i am an egotist  (jk i searched google for "tiensto shark" trying to find the steamrep thread you linked me to earlier and this thread was the top hit instead...and then yes i saw my name and had to respond b/c i'm an egotist :-p)

[jjjon123]

I won't involve myself in the other examples because I have no interest in researching what happened and know nothing about those trades.  

 

However, regarding Tiensto's trade and my trade, I have the following to say with one simple caveat:  I fully admit that I am holding Tiensto to an extremely high standard, that is, the standard i would hold myself to if I were in his shoes.  Also I will definitely delineate the stark difference between what he did and what I did (I know, Julia, that you employed the tongue-in-cheek method and didn't actually think I sharked anything, in fact you obviously don't think any of those examples were examples of sharking, but I'm going to just address it as if it were serious to show the difference).

 

1.  Don't call a girl a bitch because she refuses to bow down and shut up.  THAT is my problem with Tien.  The trading ethics and even the very definition of "sharking" is extremely difficult to pin down.  I still have issues with what he did and will lay them out now but my main issue, the prominent issue, and the issue that prompted me to block him and hurl junior high school curse words at him, is simply that I have a personal issue with guys talking to girls like that, especially an 18 year old girl when you're a 25 year old man.

 

2.  At the very point where the guy tells Tien what he wants, IN MY OPINION (that, I admit, may or may not reek of self-righteousness or excessive demand/expectation), it was his duty as a veteran admin of a hugely respected unusual trading server in which many high-tier unusual trades/crabs take place, to tell the guy "hey man, to be honest, you can probably get a lot more than that, are you sure? (asking with the implication that maybe he is quickselling)".  Instead the first greed bell starting ringing in his head and he got hooked.  So he offers 60 pure and shitty hats he overvalues (ghosts neckwear for 30 buds value my ass and that ugly robo bunsen he tried to get me to buy months ago and still can't sell) because hey, it is clearly as good as or comparable to what he asked, so I'm in the clear, right?!?  Oh and did I forget to mention, this is the clear point where Tien's smart brain puts 2 and 2 together and realizes this guy is obviously not keen on high tier unusual trading or how much the market spiked RECENTLY for god tier first gen all classes, especially crones and ke's.  So yes at this point, Tien knows he's dealing with someone who obviously doesn't know the value of his own hat, and instead of informing him or making a truly fair offer, he does the bare minimum to get by b/c like I said, the greed bells rang.

 

3.  But wait...a second chance emerges.  The guy comes back to him asking to trade the items back for each other b/c he really had no idea how much the crone's was worth and he regrets it.  Again, Tien's greed bell rings.  No he says.  BUt wait...if the trade were actually fair...wouldn't you as an admin not have that much issue with trading back for your items, after all it was supposedly fair, right?  So the values are right, a swap back as an admin who sees this person has come to him admitting his ignorance and admitting that if he had known the value he would not have traded...seems reasonable...no?  Well for me, not only would it have been reasonable, but it would have been right, and anything else wrong.

 

4.  Why is my buying the item off Steam Community Market different?  For two main reaons.  #1:  it very may well be completely purposeful.  you never know.  this person may have seen a rare cs go knife for that price and needed it instantly and would know the noh would sell instantly because that person was aware of the value.  i have often quicksold unusuals on steam market for immediate needs like that for items i was afraid i would lose.  i did this as recently as when the yellow belt misc update hit and i bought a bunch of belts and senseis online, but first quicksold a lot of unusuals.  #2:  I have NO sympathy for a person who goes into his possession, decides to sell something on an open market, and does zero research or poor research  before clicking a series of buttons and setting a price. That's just laziness and stupidity.

 

However, if you are seeking a person out to trade in a server and go to chat and just seamlessly go from point #2 to point #3 aforementioned above, then yes as an admin you have an obligation to be fair and when the obvious signs of his ignorance hit you, you should definitely be helpful rather than rapacious.  

 

Again, 2/3 are not as important reason 1 for my problem with Tien, but it still brings up some questions about his motives as a trader who carries an admin tag...at the very least.

 

 

 

I love yall though.

Hmm... So what if Tiensto bought a 2 bud unusual for an advertised price of 1 bud, would it still be a big deal and would you still "question his motives as a trader who carries an admin tag"? I really do not think so because that happens all the time.

 

Seems to me that the sharking accusations only come out from the woodwork when the "profit" starts exceeding $1,000s.

 

It reminds me of the "income equality" movement where disgruntled poor folks and intellectuals try to slander successful businessman because of their wealth.

 

So what if the guy paid 100 mixed for a 200 bud hat? It was what the guy was asking for.

 

"Oh, but HE WAS AN ADMIN!!!!!" Just because this guy is an "admin" doesn't mean he is obligated to follow your extremely high standards of self-righteousness. There is NO WAY that any kind of accusation of unethical behavior will stick. And a few weeks of minor personal attacks for $3,000 sounds like a darn good trade to me.

[usually unusual]

Hmm... So what if Tiensto bought a 2 bud unusual for an advertised price of 1 bud, would it still be a big deal and would you still "question his motives as a trader who carries an admin tag"?

 

yes you dense know-it-all.  it doesn't matter if it's 1-2 buds or 100-200 buds.  he's an admin, he can say "well you could probably actually get 1 bud and at least several keys for it" or he could simply offer the 1 bud and several keys without even mentioning it because it's the right thing to do...and why even be an admin of a reputable server?  do you even understand what that position is for?  helping the trading community is a huge reason.  go have a greed circle jerk with other greedy people.  also, nothing is more self-righteous than never seeing what you're doing as remotely wrong.  a little more honest self-evaluation or a pursuit towards gaining enough humility and intelligence to see just how petty and irresponsible you're being would suit you well.  those same successful businessmen go to jail for crimes that teeter on the types of practices you are glossing over without any detail or context.  

 

you have an agenda anyway. you know i hate you, you know i have called you out for sharking, you HAVE been banned from outpost for sharking, and you have self-snitched on yourself whether you get that or not.  you're all types of young and dumb.  i shudder to reminisce on what a snarky little know-it-all i was at age 19, and i certainly wish more people told me i was being a fool so that maybe i would actually listen one time.

[jjjon123]

yes you dense know-it-all.  it doesn't matter if it's 1-2 buds or 100-200 buds.  he's an admin, he can say "well you could probably actually get 1 bud and at least several keys for it" or he could simply offer the 1 bud and several keys without even mentioning it because it's the right thing to do...and why even be an admin of a reputable server?  do you even understand what that position is for?  helping the trading community is a huge reason.  go have a greed circle jerk with other greedy people.  also, nothing is more self-righteous than never seeing what you're doing as remotely wrong.  a little more honest self-evaluation or a pursuit towards gaining enough humility and intelligence to see just how petty and irresponsible you're being would suit you well.  those same successful businessmen go to jail for crimes that teeter on the types of practices you are glossing over without any detail or context.  

 

you have an agenda anyway. you know i hate you, you know i have called you out for sharking, you HAVE been banned from outpost for sharking, and you have self-snitched on yourself whether you get that or not.  you're all types of young and dumb.  i shudder to reminisce on what a snarky little know-it-all i was at age 19, and i certainly wish more people told me i was being a fool so that maybe i would actually listen one time.

Like I said, there is NO WAY that any kind of accusation of unethical behavior will stick. The only reason this is being given the attention it has is the sheer amount of profit gained. This entire situation will blow over in a few weeks and Mr. Tiensto will be $3,000 richer.

 

The jealous masses and the upset elitists can rant all they want, it will be nothing more than petty allegations.

[Julia Gillard the Honest]

#2:  I have NO sympathy for a person who goes into his possession, decides to sell something on an open market, and does zero research or poor research  before clicking a series of buttons and setting a price. That's just laziness and stupidity.

 

I was actually saying that if Tiensto's a shark then Neymar is too because he bought from someone who had clearly done less research. With Tiensto, his seller knew more. He was in an unusual trade server explicitly saying how much he wanted. Any way, my point is that it's extremely unfair and hypocritical to abuse Tiensto when other people have made larger profits. I don't believe that Neymar's been sharking, but if I believe that then it follows that I can't believe that Tiensto was sharking. All of those reports about him "sharking" are completely dishonest. What they mean to say is, "I thought that you would pay more than he was asking for just because I believed that you would." I too like annoying real sharks who seek out completely unaware kids and offer weapons for unusuals. I am not friends with Tiensto and don't know him beyond seeing him on TF2-Trader. However, I wonder how those people in the examples would like it if a heap of people suddenly started telling everyone that they're sharks just because they found cheap unusuals?

 

If someone were to sell a TC to Mattie for, say, 62.5% of its value for whatever reason (because he's Mattie, because he's a trusted payer and not a scammer, etc.), would anyone dare to start publicly calling him a shark? We've all seen the chat log. The original owner was aware of scammers and making sure that he wasn't going to sell to a scammer. He was far more aware of his hat's value than anyone who has put a Noh on the SCM was at the time. Yes, he's likely to regret the trade when he has heaps of people who seem to hate Tiensto adding him to tell him that it was worth a lot more but he had plenty of time to investigate his hat's value himself.

[OverduePixels]

He didn't use his admin status to get the unusual...at least not in the chat available. I mean, he did use it to get the unusual, but not really... 

 

He showed his admin tag to show that he's not a scammer. He didn't use it to convince him its a good deal or that he should do the trade or anything like that. So, nothing wrong with him saying he's an admin. 

 

Also, its not a shark anyway...the guy who sold it knows relative values--i.e. understands the concept that unusuals have value. Totally not a shark in anyway. 

 

Exactly. Its not a shark at all.

[whopz]

how is paying 50+ buds for ANYTHING sharking?! LOL

[AwesomeMcCoolName]

3.  But wait...a second chance emerges.  The guy comes back to him asking to trade the items back for each other b/c he really had no idea how much the crone's was worth and he regrets it.  Again, Tien's greed bell rings.  No he says.  BUt wait...if the trade were actually fair...wouldn't you as an admin not have that much issue with trading back for your items, after all it was supposedly fair, right?  So the values are right, a swap back as an admin who sees this person has come to him admitting his ignorance and admitting that if he had known the value he would not have traded...seems reasonable...no?  Well for me, not only would it have been reasonable, but it would have been right, and anything else wrong.

Anyone who does a trade does it because he benefited from that trade. The fact that Tien was willing to do the trade means that he wanted the other items more than his items--whether that be for aesthetic reasons or profit reasons. And the idea of a "fair trade"...well, most trades aren't completely even trades. Someone usually does (or thinks anyway) make some profit off the trade. So, I wouldn't have an issue with him being unwilling to do a trade back because that clearly indicates an unfair trade.

 

Seems to me that the sharking accusations only come out from the woodwork when the "profit" starts exceeding $1,000s.

Thats always been the case--and in my mind, something can only be a shark between tiers...I.e. buying an unusual with a craft hat, is a shark. Buying a 5 bud unusual for a .5 bud unusual is not.

you know i hate you...

O.o thats who you are  

[♠Derpeh♤]

Hmmm... I know! Here's an example of a Noh shark that we can all get behind. http://www.tf2outpos.../trade/18764327 Neymar bought it, in his own words, from the SCM. So we know that he paid no more than $400, which was about 12 earbuds at the time. Talk about a great buy! Just about a third of its value there.

So now I ask you: Do you believe that Neymar sharked? In his popular, trusted position he willingly bought that Noh nice and cheap. He wasn't deceptive at all but he bought it knowing that he'd be able to sell it for a massive profit?

He bought it off the steam market which is impossible to shark, he had a b/o he paid it and both parties were happy. Profit is different from sharking :l

[Demirelle]

it wasn't a shark, it was a good deal. the first two burning crones both sold for around 100~

 

Not every good deal is sharked

 

People these days.

 

Some people just dont care as much.

[Zefrom]

I thought you are promoting "No Sharking"

[«Gғм» KNTRL!]

How can you call this sharking? Seems someone here has no idea what sharking is.

Ask Teeird to teach you what real sharking is.

 

[Julia Gillard the Honest]

I regret authoring that original post while believing that people would read it before commenting.

[Grimes]

I regret authoring that original post while believing that people would read it before commenting.

 

It's hard to remember that most of the people on these forums are <15.

[♠Derpeh♤]

I regret authoring that original post while believing that people would read it before commenting.

Tiensto didnt shark, seller had a b/o he paid it, the only issue people had with his trade was he allegedly used his admin reputation to make it seem like a better deal than what was actually offered. Many traders which didnt look too closely to see that there was no proof of him doing this as he was simply using it as a way to proove he was not a scammer called him out as a sharker and everyone jumped the bandwagon.

 

This is a economy it is the seller's responsibility to be aware of his own belongings/items it isnt up to the community to hold their hand, the seller put his hat on scm, neymar bought it. Seller was happy becuase he got what he asked and neymar profited, i dont see why many people have to go out of their way to condemn those who have made a profit.

 

When you bought you GE noh you didnt take your responsibility to inform the seller of it's worth, why? because it's not your responsibility to (and the seller was an ass)