Unsolds: Acceptable proof?

[Distinctively Vincent]

This is something I've seen regularly that gets easy votes. Most frequently seen on salvaged stranges, but not uncommon on regular items as well. The use of a pile of items for sale, marked as 'unsold', with either an arbitrary drop or the use of a number of quickbuyers to create a new low range. The latter might not even be seen if it's dropping an x-y range to x flat.

 

Is this acceptable? Unsolds, in my eyes, are inherently problematic. Since it typically involves outpost trades, in the case of non-donators, one has no idea how frequently they've been bumping. Even with donators, one has no idea how often they're online, if they've been online since they made their trade, if their steam online status actually means that they're at a keyboard ready to trade for a reasonable amount of time a day. And this is all assuming that the unsolds are appopriately days old and not just a listing of largely fresh trades to pad out the suggestion's proof section.

 

All in all, I've personally been seeing unsolds used poorly far more often than I've seen them used well. And, personally speaking, I'm not sure if they're even necessary. When an item is falling and currently depicted at a flat price, the existence of numerous seller trades for below flat price are a better indicator that a new ranged price is needed. When an item is falling and currently depicted at a ranged pirce, the abundance of seller trades at low range driving out the need for the high range can be used to make low range the new flat price.

 

Anyway, those are my thoughts. Am I wrong? Am I just getting picky and trying to find an issue where none exists? Is leaving unsold-based suggestions open for a couple of days to see how the listed trades fare indeed acceptable practice? I would love to hear more thoughts on this matter.

[BQE]

Another argument, maybe they've had the trade open for weeks, but just recently changed their listed price because it went unsold.  The trade still looks like it's been unsold for weeks at the updated price though.  You could use that as "proof" that the updated price is "unsold for weeks" and suggest a lower price.  

[Liddojunior]

I don't like the idea of unsolds used because of reasons you said.

 

My friend has donator rank and he has classes mon-thru all day. And when he goes home he has adds and they were buying his stuff and they already got one. 

So his would look unsold but the item can actually be selling at the price and we dont know if the person got an add when he was away. 

 

And for any item you can always find them unsold because the are frequently put up for sale while those that sold are hidden away in the depths of outpost. And some of the sellers are away, i sometimes miss out on sales when im at class or asleep. 

 

I think when dropping a price you have to show sellers at the lower price and not just be like look they are unsold drop it by .2 of a key. 

 

I think unsolds are only good when the point is "look theres plenty of sellers at a lower range, they take a moderate amount of time to sell and those that are higher are unsold and have been for a week." While using a small sample of unsold. 

[polar]

If the proof is entirely based on unsolds, the suggestion showed be left up for 2 days to give time for the solds to become unsolds.

 

And I agree, this has become ridiculous. I try to provide solds whenever I see one of these types of suggestions. It's not hard to do. tf2tp tracks all sales. Look up the sale and then find the seller on outpost.

[puddingkip]

I use unsolds rather often, yet I never use ONLY unsolds. That's no reason for a price to drop *bill's*

I always provide some sellers/solds at my suggested range.

[Distinctively Vincent]

If the proof is entirely based on unsolds, the suggestion showed be left up for 2 days to give time for the solds to become unsolds.

 

It's the best method for the time being, though I'm personally wondering if it should be grounds for immediate closure as a suggestion with only one trade or a suggestion with all buyer trades would be. I believe there are too many factors surrounding unsolds for a suggestion to use them exclusively in succesfully making an appropiate price range.

[Woifi The Viking]

Yep, another good example: http://backpack.tf/vote/id/519d853cba25363147000030

[Karam]

Unsolds do count, but maybe they need their own rules

 

For Ex. Unsolds for less than 3 days shouldn't count.

Unsolds should be atleast bumped in the last 10 hours.

And so on

 

Unsolds, in my opinion, plays a very big role, if people are struggling to sell it for the high price means the demand is low meaning that it needs a slight drop, regarding that, unsolds may be used poorely many times, it takes time and exprience for people to know how to use them most effectively.

 

[RuffRyders]

I agree that unsolds shouldn't be valid as proof. Been complaining about that for months.

Few reasons for that.

- Sold trades are find to find since they are closed. Few unsolds don't represent the market.

- Its often the traders own fault for having a item unsold (not bumping, never online, not responding)

- Often unsold trades used in proof are 2 days old max.

- its easy to find items unsold, and salvaged and high tier items can take a week to sell

 

All these kind of fails are the reason why many items and high tier stuff are falling in price.

 

The formula for getting a suggestion accepted is as following

-Use few trades outside of current range

-Show some quicksellers

-Then show some unsold (often young, bad bumped, not valid)

Community always votes it up. And the suggestion gets accepted within 1 or 2 days! If you want to check if there are truly staying unsold, then you should leave the suggestion open for a week and not immediately accept it like Puddinghead usually does.

 

 

Imo unsold trades are showing current price most of the time. I remember back then bp,tf respected those trades and "unsold" thing didn't exists. Now I see the copy / paste Selling =/ Sold everywhere by the people who blindly vote based on belt and links

 

Perfect example

http://backpack.tf/v...85f0a000014_row

80% upvote, his unsold were actually sold when I looked half hour after the suggestion.

 

So 1 week ago it was perfectly selling fine at 9 keys. Suddenly its worth 7 keys. Bp.tf manipulated the price. How else can it suddenly drop 2 keys in 1 week. How can the S.F. Bat suddenly drop by few keys in 1 week? Atleast with spreadsheet prices were more consistent

[MC22]

It's not the unsolds, it is the solds and selling that dictate a drop.

[cleverpun]

If the proof is entirely based on unsolds, the suggestion showed be left up for 2 days to give time for the solds to become unsolds.

 

This, except change "2 days" based on the item type;

 

currencies: 2 days

G items; 1 week

Stranges: 3 days

Any item that costs 2 keys or more; at least 3 days, add another day for each key past 2

[Sandulf]

It is a terribad kinda proof. You can show trades about an item going unsold but what about successful trades?

 

You can't search for successful closed trades and TF2OP filters out trades where the searched item is deleted. So if I successfully manage to sell my S. YER for 2 keys and I delete it from my trade it won't show up in search. But somebody out there is still selling for 2 keys for few days will show up and people will go like 'Unsold for 3 days......decrease the price durr and gib me rep plox'

 

Only valid proof that should be considered are many people willing to sell below listed price or people struggling to sell even below listed price or at listed price for weeks or even month

[MC22]

This, except change "2 days" based on the item type;

 

currencies: 2 days

G items; 1 week

Stranges: 3 days

Any item that costs 2 keys or more; at least 3 days, add another day for each key past 2

V probs 1 week too.

[ERASER BY]

You touched on good topic of conversation Vincent .

I do not like this argument "UNSOLD" in proposition price .If an item is not for sale at the price of two key trader could always lower the price . Why should we try to lower the price on the basis of what has not happened yet (not sold - not the sale price - not the price of item). On how much lower the price if the item is not sold ? may be 10%, can be 20%, can be 50-70% ? - there is no hard evidence in figures- it looks like a fortune-telling.

"The use of a pile of items for sale, marked as 'unsold', with either an arbitrary drop or the use of a number of quickbuyers to create a new low range. The latter might not even be seen if it's dropping an x-y range to x flat." -This is the simplest and easiest way to create suggestion and earn a lot of points in this , similar suggestion can be made of 100 pieces a day - without any problems . Until recently, I always voted against ,but the proposals are accepted regularly and their number was a huge I always lose at this points, I'm tired of it all so I stopped vote for the normal subjects (for some time), now situation has become much better than a few months ago.

 

I can agree in some cases it can be used but in combination with other more solid evidence . Woifi  gave a great example of how not to do (bad suggestion) price suggestion , I would suggest to make a rule to the prohibiting make such suggestion ( proof only: not sold - quick sale - buyers with a much lower purchase price of the items), based on the rules you (moderators) have spent less time on these empty sentences ( closed -read rules ) . 

[polar]

This, except change "2 days" based on the item type;

 

currencies: 2 days

G items; 1 week

Stranges: 3 days

Any item that costs 2 keys or more; at least 3 days, add another day for each key past 2

That would just completely clutter up the website given how many suggestions are based on this kind of proof alone nowadays. If it's a suggestion with a lot of proof (30 links of unsolds - obviously this depends on the item), then you shouldn't have to wait 1 week, even if it's genuine or vintage. If there isn't a single sale in 2 days on 30 links, that should be enough to show that that value is too high. If it's wimpy proof, the suggestion should just be closed anyways. I think leaving suggestions up for 3+ days is a bad idea. 

[RuffRyders]

That would just completely clutter up the website given how many suggestions are based on this kind of proof alone nowadays. If it's a suggestion with a lot of proof (30 links of unsolds - obviously this depends on the item), then you shouldn't have to wait 1 week, even if it's genuine or vintage. If there isn't a single sale in 2 days on 30 links, that should be enough to show that that value is too high. If it's wimpy proof, the suggestion should just be closed anyways. I think leaving suggestions up for 3+ days is a bad idea. 

 

Cluttering the website is another problem. Your solution isn't possible. Many vintages and rare stranges don't even have 30 sellers at a set price. Most are looking for offers. Very few have a set price.

 

In 1 week time most items can be sold. Yesterday I sold the SF sniper after few days for a earbud. For most accurate pricing it should stay 1 week open. People spamming suggestions is another problem and that is affecting the quality of suggestion. You will have to take action against that instead.

 

Solution to this might be allow 1 vote at a time for a item. If its looks good, let it stay open for a week. If during the week the suggestion seems wrong, simply close it ASAP.

[Jack Cruise NUB]

it's bad proof, i never use it, since it will end up getting sold, i've seen people using 3 hour trades that hasnt been bumped since creation used as unsolds... if a suggestion is based solely on unsolds i can easily downvote it..

[Crabislav]

This is never applied as proof for items worth over 15-20 buds. Never.

[Duscoda]

http://backpack.tf/vote/id/519f5b1b4bd7b81632000003

I know I'm being obnoxious with this suggestion but I feel this is a good example of what you're talking about. He has a few links to unsold trades and 3 for below 1 key (not counting the 2 for 5 and 5.11 ref since thats just a key in metal). A good chunk of the unsold ones have sold and I've found over 30 successful trades at 1 key or metal equivalent.

 

But of course because he has a few "unsold" links and some quicksells, it gets tons of upvotes. Suggestions like this should just be automatically closed, or have the same treatment as currency suggestions where they the vote is ignored and its allowed to be up for more than a day to prove if it really doesn't sell for more than the suggested range.

 

Also, bless based Woifi for closing that mediocre suggestion.

[Liddojunior]

This is also how high tier stranges and genuines have fallen

[polar]

For those items, suggestions based only on unsolds should be immediately closed. But no suggestion should be up for a week. For those items, proof must include solds.

Cluttering the website is another problem. Your solution isn't possible. Many vintages and rare stranges don't even have 30 sellers at a set price. Most are looking for offers. Very few have a set price.

[Duscoda]

http://backpack.tf/vote/id/51a16adcba25362846000011

 

This is a great example of what should be automatically closed. Price is being based solely off of unsold trades, most aren't even a day old, and its a higher tier item that usually takes longer to sell.

 

This kind of suggestion shouldn't even be left up for it to get upvotes because a vast majority of votes will simply upvote because its an expensive item become cheaper for them.

[Distinctively Vincent]

The concensus here is that unsolds are a problem. I'm going to try to take a harder stance against problem suggestions that leverage them alongside quickbuyer trades to rapidly drop prices. I'll be closing those that use them exclusively and leaving messages on those that aren't entirely unsolds but may be leaning too hard on them.

 

On a simlar note to suggestions that are rapidly dropping prices, I'll also be taking a harder stance against suggestions made within a day or two of a passed suggestion that tries to drop a price immediately after a suggestion has already done so. Exceptions for those that are done due to an error in the previous suggestion (a drop that was too conservative based on what was presented) or items that are seeing a rapid change due to an exterior force (Valve doing a sale, putting an item in a crate, performing some other action that directly and quickly alters the market). Basically, extending the rule on keys to other items. It's something that I see primarily hand in hand with the unsolds issue.

 

If you see me acting too harshly with either of the above, or feel I shouldn't be acting with either at all, please let me know.

[RuffRyders]

I hope more admins will follow you

[ERASER BY]

I think that the community will understand if the moderators will closing such   http://backpack.tf/vote/id/51a16adcba25362846000011   http://backpack.tf/vote/id/519d853cba25363147000030   suggestions , yes someone will not like it - lost the opportunity to earn easy points, but make a good price suggestion without "not sold" is not as difficult as it seems, many willing to help newcomers. I hope you Vincent and the other moderators will put in order price suggestion on vintage hats , stranges  and other rare items that are not sold as often but have a firm price.

I will give an example with unusual hats . Is very nice now to look at suggestions on these items: most of the proposals with a good evidence base ( price sold hats not stupid offers on lower and hight end ) , and I do not see now it price fall which was  6-8 months ago , when for month hat could lose up to half of their value due to incorrectly composed of price suggestion .

I see this as big merit your Vincent and the other moderators .