Orlando Night Club Terrors

[NotWarlizard]

 gun control has shown to work in literally every country who does have strict gun control laws

 

 

Yeah you've never been to latin america...

[meme chan]

 

 gun control has shown to work in literally every country who does have strict gun control laws 

 

In what way? Sure, lots of gun-related crimes have lessened, but then we find that other crime, such as knife crime, goes on the rise in its place.

I believe this was very much the case in Australia.

 

I think the actual problem we need to be addressing is the mental state and well-being of the individuals who commit these acts of violence, what drove them to such an extent?

How can it be prevented?

[Spiritwalker]

Really didn't take a long time to change the topic to gun control. So since we're already off topic I might as well add my two cents to it.

Whilst I completely disagree with the way guns are handled in the US, I don't think a ban is necessarily the right solution - if someone wants to kill someone else, he'll find a way. And people having guns itself isn't what causes the mass shootings. Just look at my neighbour country Switzerland for example, a large majority of young males have to go to the military and can (and often will) take their assault rifle back home afterwards. 

 

Yet they only get very few crimes involving those guns here - why is that? I can only assume it's because unlike in the US where you can just pick up an assault rifle, the swiss army recruits actually learn responsibility.

 

And that's the thing, I've read in a german article that this guy was known to be mentally unstable. This is where the US has to start fixing their system - because a person like this would have most likely not been allowed into the military as he wouldn't have passed the psychological tests. And he wouldn't have had a gun.

 

I know he could have picked on up illegally, but the inhibition threshold doing that might have caused him to rethink his actions - if you can just grab a gun after a 5 minute drive and shoot up a bunch of innocents, chances are you'll still be in the same fit of rage.

 

That being said, I only hope for the best for the victims. 

 

Freedom will never fall, no matter how hard these (alleged) islamists try.

[♠Derpeh♤]

In what way? Sure, lots of gun-related crimes have lessened, but then we find that other crime, such as knife crime, goes on the rise in its place.

I believe this was very much the case in Australia.

 

I think the actual problem we need to be addressing is the mental state and well-being of the individuals who commit these acts of violence, what drove them to such an extent?

How can it be prevented?

 

That's true and I agree with you but the distinguishing difference here is that you would now have madman with a knife or a robber with a knife which would obviously be different from them holding a gun with X amount of rounds each with the potential to kill one life. Guns are made to kill and in this case the guy literally downed 50 people in a matter of seconds.

 

Make the tests for owning a gun harder, have regular assessments of the mental health of owners either of these would have prevented so many of the pass mass shootings where the gunman legally owned their gun. Think right now most states you just need to pass a simple background check and wait the 10 day period but even then you can bypass that via private seller who arn't legally required to run a background check or even from a gunshow.

 

Again not saying you should ban guns just at the very least dont make it so piss poor easy for people to purchase them :l

[Hyperqube]

First and foremost, I'll follow Dok - thoughts & condolences to the victims & family & such.

 

 

"If we should ban guns because a few of them kill, shouldn't we also ban Muslims because a few of them kill?"

That's indeed a solid point. Anti-gun people will try and use it to show guns are evil (did ya know he used an AR-15 ... ya know ... the Sandy Hook's assault rifle?); anti-muslim people will use it to try and show islam is evil.

Heck, in a sense I'm relieved he was born & raised in the US. Otherwise, it would be even more fuel for the anti-immigrant movement.

 

Now, this might be some insane european socialist oppinion, but how about

• muslim: yes, but ...
  • mulsim (or any religious stream) that advocate violence towards others: no.

    (oh yeah - anyone respons with 'all muslims advocate violence' are ignored, and should learn something about the people of this planet instead of trolling)

• weapons: sure, but ...
  • background checks, ban if you're on the terrorist watchlist, and no loopholes. I can understand you might want to own a gun ... but raise your hand if you think terrorists should have them.
  • no assault rifles. Bears, criminals, ... whomever you wanna shoot ... a gun or shotgun does the trick. Lets agree you dont really need a weapons with which it's significantly easier to mow down groups of innocent civilians.

I give it 3 days before something else happens.

I'm afraid you're an optimist. The U.S. has an average mass shooting rate of once per day.

 

... I'm betting it's that common the news simply stopped reporting it, and thus making it

 

I give it 3 days before something else happens I hear about something else

Tommorrow is another day. Sadly, tommorrow is another day.

 

In what way? Sure, lots of gun-related crimes have lessened, but then we find that other crime, such as knife crime, goes on the rise in its place.

I believe this was very much the case in Australia.

Crime? Perhaps ... but mass shootings decreased. I'm not sure the mass stabbings increased.

[GMSkaldak]

 

• weapons: sure, but ...
  • no assault rifles. Bears, criminals, ... whomever you wanna shoot ... a gun or shotgun does the trick. Lets agree you dont really need a weapons with which it's significantly easier to mow down groups of innocent civilians.

 

 

Why target "assault rifles" when handguns are a statistically larger vector for gun violence? I get the point you're making about, let's say, an AR-15, being the chosen weapon of psychopaths to commit mass shootings, but don't make an argument against a specific model of weapon when there are several million of said weapon currently owned and kept by American citizens with no incident.

[Chewi105]

Before I give my ten cents, let me say that this was an undoubtedly terrible thing to have occurred. My heart goes out to all the families affected by this.

 

However, as with any happening of this scale, tensions flare up on both sides of every argument as everyone feels the need to pitch in, as politics have become so ingrained into society as of late.

 

I'm going to start out by saying that gun control in its current form doesn't work, and only serves to restrict law abiding citizens. The defining trait of criminals is that they don't obey the laws, so what is another arbitrary clip size, weapon ban, or even gun-free zone going to do to deter a criminal? Are we to expect these people to just throw up their arms and say "Oh, well this here's a gun free zone, looks like I wont be carrying out my agenda-fueled crusade today, darn it!"

 

A further testament to the inefficiency is the fact that every single mass shooting in the US since the 1950, with the exception of one, has happened in a gun free zone(1). The UK, with a blanket ban on firearm possession, still has a violent crime rate of 2,034 per 100k people in the UK, while the US has only 466 per 100k (2). Countries with strict gun laws are even shown to have higher murder rates than countries with looser bans.

So, bans are not the most effective solution to gun crime. In fact, in states where concealed carry licenses are on a shall-issue basis, robberies, murders, rapes, and aggravated assault have all been REDUCED(4). And despite what the mass media may like to perpetuate, gun crime as a whole is going down while gun ownership is going up:

 

Meanwhile, despite the onslaught of gun control legislation designed to prevent them, mass shootings are increasing:

 

 

 

I understand that it may be improper to start firing off an argument so soon after something as terrible as this has happened, but it really irks me when people see times like these as an opportunity to spread misinformation backed by fear and ignorance. Gun legislation doesn't work, it just further strangles the Second Amendment with useless laws. Gun control doesn't work, it just makes people sitting ducks. Background checks don't work, the Orlando shooter had multiple FBI investigations open on him prior to the shooting. The only thing that has been shown to work was giving law abiding citizens the option to protect themselves should they need to.

And in this post I didn't even touch upon how most gun-related deaths are from suicide, how vital the Second Amendment is to the sovereignty of our nation, or how religious extremism factors into all of this.

I hope that with this y'all will pay mind to conduct your own research before taking solid stances on any kind of viewpoint. /rant
 

Sources:

1. http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2012/12/25/gun-free-zone-john-lott/1791085/

2. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/5712573/UK-is-violent-crime-capital-of-Europe.html

3. http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/jlpp/Vol30_No2_KatesMauseronline.pdf

4. http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB841185795318576500

 

[Abraham the Heavy]

 gun control has shown to work in literally every country who does have strict gun control laws

I live in Brazil, 12 years ago the government decided to have strict gun control laws in here, before these laws we had 40.000 murders a year, now we have 60.000 and that number is growing each year, and you want to tell me that gun control laws work? 

[♠Derpeh♤]

I live in Brazil, 12 years ago the government decided to have strict gun control laws in here, before these laws we had 40.000 murders a year, now we have 60.000 and that number is growing each year, and you want to tell me that gun control laws work? 

 

Then can you imagine how much higher that number would be if they didnt? Immediately after implementing a simple background check and requirement to register ownership for guns firearm related deaths rates fell by 15% and considering that this Brazil still a developing country and probably is probably one of the most corrupt places in the world that's a pretty good number. It isnt's about reducing the number to 0 it's about decreasing the number.

 

Apparently 80% of the mass shootings in America are from legally owned guns, if that isnt a sign that they should at least add a bloody mental health test before you are allowed to purchase a gun I dont know what is.

[Chewi105]

Apparently 80% of the mass shootings in America are from legally owned guns, if that isnt a sign that they should at least add a bloody mental health test before you are allowed to purchase a gun I dont know what is.

You literally cannot get a gun if you have a mental illness or have been admitted into a mental institution in the US. If you want to somehow check for psychopathic tendencies, well good luck because psychopaths are very, very good at hiding it. Id also like to see a source on that figure you have there.

[♠Derpeh♤]

You literally cannot get a gun if you have a mental illness or have been admitted into a mental institution in the US. If you want to somehow check for psychopathic tendencies, well good luck because psychopaths are very, very good at hiding it. Id also like to see a source on that figure you have there.

 

Actually they can't get it from legit dealers who basically just punch your name in the database see if you check out but you can still purchase from from private sellers or from a gunshow (known as the gunshow loophole) which is where the current problem lies.

 

Currently it's "too" easy for anyone who wants a gun to get a gun. Isnt it unsettling to know that any idiot who has some money can have the power to just mow down crowds in seconds?

 

And it was from a quick g search

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/san-bernardino-shooting/more-80-percent-guns-used-mass-shootings-obtained-legally-n474441

[Abraham the Heavy]

Then can you imagine how much higher that number would be if they didnt? Immediately after implementing a simple background check and requirement to register ownership for guns firearm related deaths rates fell by 15% and considering that this Brazil still a developing country and probably is probably one of the most corrupt places in the world that's a pretty good number. It isnt's about reducing the number to 0 it's about decreasing the number.

 

Apparently 80% of the mass shootings in America are from legally owned guns, if that isnt a sign that they should at least add a bloody mental health test before you are allowed to purchase a gun I dont know what is.

In 2012 42.416 people died by being shoot, that is the highest amount of firearm related deaths in the history of Brazil, how is the firearm related death rate falling?

[♠Derpeh♤]

In 2012 42.416 people died by being shoot, that is the highest amount of firearm related deaths in the history of Brazil, how is the firearm related death rate falling?

 

 

Immediately after implementing it in 2003 gun related deaths dropped from 39k to 36k. Also you dont just look at the number and go which one is higher, why not take into account that your population is growing at a hella fast rate? or that corruption over there are going through the roof? or that over the years they have gone lax on enforcing laws?

 

Can you honestly say that them making it a bit harder for you to own guns has done nothing? that it has not prevented a single mass shooting or hundreds if not thousands of lives?

 

EDIT: The introduction of gun control slowed the growth rate of gun related deaths which in turn saved 160,000 lives since it's implementation. https://news.vice.com/article/despite-firearm-restrictions-gun-violence-kills-five-people-every-hour-in-brazil

[Abraham the Heavy]

Immediately after implementing it in 2003 gun related deaths dropped from 39k to 36k. Also you dont just look at the number and go which one is higher, why not take into account that your population is growing at a hella fast rate? or that corruption over there are going through the roof? or that over the years they have gone lax on enforcing laws?

 

Can you honestly say that them making it a bit harder for you to own guns has done nothing? that it has not prevented a single mass shooting or hundreds if not thousands of lives?

 

EDIT: The introduction of gun control slowed the growth rate of gun related deaths which in turn saved 160,000 lives since it's implementation. https://news.vice.co...-hour-in-brazil

 They didn't made it a little bit harder to own guns, they made it basically impossible, basically the only people in Brazil with guns are criminals, and for them it is really easy to get guns, and when i say easy i mean that 10 year old boys can get guns on the slums, so basically those that had guns before the gun control laws took place still have them, and also most problems here are related, our population is growing hella fast because the government encourages the poor people to have more kids, most poor people live on the slums, in the brazilian slums you have two options, either get into crime or study a lot to be able to get a good job to leave the slum, which one do you think most of the people there choose?

 

 Also you can't have law enforcement in brazil, the left-wing party here doesn't allow it, they say that criminals are victims of society and shouldn't be punished they also want the police to end, how will you enforce the law when even the government is against you?

 

 So what happens? criminals  are not afraid of anything, they now that the citizens can't defend themselves and that the police can't lay a finger on them or the left-wingers will riot, so each year more and more people turn to crime, i don't want our gun control laws to be basically inexistent, but i want to at the least be able to defend myself and my family as the police won't be able to do anything to defend anyone.

[Gren]

A guy walked into a club and killed 50 people, injuring at least as many.   This guy was nuts.  This doesn't have anything to do with gun control laws.  If you're the kind of person who resolves to shoot 100+ people on a Saturday night, you will find a way to do it, using whatever means necessary to get the job done.  

 

If it wasn't a gun, it would have been a bomb, a homemade flame thrower, etc.  These people are severely mentally ill, and the reason why we're seeing more and more people who evidently are so disconnected with what it means to be a free human needs to be understood.  Only then can we start to overcome this, gun control will not help you.  But the fact is we have no sweet clue, we can go ahead and blame militant islam, hate motivated crimes, etc. but that doesn't do enough to explain these shootings.  

[[Unactive Account]]

 

there have been 8 mass shootings in Canada in the past 20 years. there have been 7 mass shootings since Monday in the USA

 

Canada has a gun ban.

 

USA doesn't.

 

if you think guns aren't an issue than you have your head up your ass.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Also trump has gotten his tiny Bulgarian hands on this and is using it to boost his platform calling for the ban of Muslims.

[GMSkaldak]

Actually they can't get it from legit dealers who basically just punch your name in the database see if you check out but you can still purchase from from private sellers or from a gunshow (known as the gunshow loophole) which is where the current problem lies.

 

 

The supposed "gun show loophole" is a buzzword that's tossed around a bit that has no substantial meaning. If you are an FFL (Federal Firearms License) holding dealer in the U.S. you MUST conduct a background check before selling ANYONE a gun; no matter the venue you're selling at (*cough* gun shows *cough*). As for private sales, there are some restrictions depending on the state, however, if you were to knowingly sell a firearm to a convicted felon or anyone not legally able to purchase or own a gun, you're risking a felony charge yourself.

 

For a bit more insight: 

[Kevin the Chicken God]

I don't know why this thread has veered into gun control, what we should be discussing is the absolute abomination that is the U.S. mental health care system, which is a major reason the U.S. has so many mass shootings

[Gren]

there have been 8 mass shootings in Canada in the past 20 years. there have been 7 mass shootings since Monday in the USA

 

Canada has a gun ban.

 

USA doesn't.

 

if you think guns aren't an issue than you have your head up your ass.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Also trump has gotten his tiny Bulgarian hands on this and is using it to boost his platform calling for the ban of Muslims.

 

We don't have a gun ban.  Long guns are relatively freely available, but things like handguns and (semi) automatic weapons are restricted or outright forbidden (e.g. full automatics).  So you can easily get your hands on a shotgun and just open up on a crowd.  There's another reason that it doesn't happen here nearly as often as in the States, and gun laws might have something to do with it, but they don't tell the whole story.  

[Hyperqube]

> no assault rifles. Bears, criminals, ... whomever you wanna shoot ... a gun or

> shotgun does the trick. Lets agree you dont really need a weapons with which

> it's significantly easier to mow down groups of innocent civilians.

 

Why target "assault rifles" when handguns are a statistically larger vector for gun violence?

I get the point you're making about, let's say, an AR-15, being the chosen weapon of psychopaths to commit mass shootings, but don't make an argument against a specific model of weapon when there are several million of said weapon currently owned and kept by American citizens with no incident.

Because I'm not talking about gun violence - I'm talking about mass shootings.

 

Because as Prinzessin J indicated already - at least to a certain degree, violent people will be violent. Take away the guns, and knife violence increases - and all that.

 

 

 

 

A further testament to the inefficiency is the fact that every single mass shooting in the US since the 1950, with the exception of one, has happened in a gun free zone(1). The UK, with a blanket ban on firearm possession, still has a violent crime rate of 2,034 per 100k people in the UK, while the US has only 466 per 100k (2). Countries with strict gun laws are even shown to have higher murder rates than countries with looser bans.

see ... it's interesting that

• when you speak of the US, you speak of mass shootings,
• when you compare to other contries, you compare 'violent crime' and 'murder rate'

If Orlando was simply a 'violent crime', or a 'murder', we wouldn't be having this conversation.

How do the mass shootings rate of the U.S. compare to the countries with looser bans?

 

They didn't made it a little bit harder to own guns, they made it basically impossible, basically the only people in Brazil with guns are criminals, and for them it is really easy to get guns, and when i say easy i mean that 10 year old boys can get guns on the slums

... perhaps the problem is that you live in a country where 10 year olds can easly get their hands on illigal guns.

 

No mather what type of gun control you have, you got a problem if that's the situation in your country.

 

 

 

 

 

[Professional Map Painter]

The 2nd Amendment was introduced in a time where conventional handheld weapons could kill 3 people a minute in the hands of a trained soldier at mid-range (and prototype breech loaders were not in mass production, nor were there any American designs available at the time). Now one man can kill 50 and injure ~53 in minutes with legally owned firearms. The US seems to be the only country where mass shootings are commonplace, no matter what the motive is, I wonder why.

 

"In the past two weeks Mateen legally purchased a Glock pistol and a long gun, ATF Assistant Special Agent in Charge Trevor Velinor told reporters.

It's not known if those weapons were used in the attack.

He is not a prohibited person. They can legally walk into a gun dealership and acquire and purchase firearms. He did so. And he did so within the last week or so," Velinor said."

 

Meanwhile, in a country without a serious gun problem:

 

"To obtain a firearm certificate, the police must be satisfied that a person has "good reason" to own each firearm, and that they can be trusted with it "without danger to the public safety or to the peace". Under Home Office guidelines, Firearm Certificates are only issued if a person has legitimate sporting, collecting, or work-related reasons for ownership. Since 1968, self-defence has not been considered a valid reason to own a firearm.[45] The current licensing procedure involves: positive verification of identity, two referees of verifiable good character who have known the applicant for at least two years (and who may themselves be interviewed and/or investigated as part of the certification), approval of the application by the applicant's own family doctor, an inspection of the premises and cabinet where firearms will be kept and a face-to-face interview by a Firearms Enquiry Officer (FEO) also known as a Firearms Liaison Officer (FLO). A thorough background check of the applicant is then made by Special Branch on behalf of the firearms licensing department. Only when all these stages have been satisfactorily completed will a licence be issued, which must be renewed every 5 years."

 

"There were 0.05 recorded intentional homicides committed with a firearm per 100,000 inhabitants in the five years to 2011 (15 to 38 people per annum). Gun homicides accounted for 2.4% of all homicides in the year 2011.^[2] "

 

Besides, who shot and killed the gunman? Was it civilians armed with guns for self-defence? No, it was the armed police who arrived on the scene. It also looks like he somehow got a job at G4S which really shows how shit their security is nowadays.

 

tl,dr - just quote the 2nd amendment and live in denial, as is what usually happens after a mass shooting in the US

[Hyperqube]

tl,dr - just quote the 2nd amendment and live in denial, as is what usually happens after a mass shooting in the US

But Shamefurr Dispray, are you telling us this guy WASN'T member of the "well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state" - which the 2nd amendment talks about?

[Gren]

The 2nd Amendment was introduced in a time where conventional handheld weapons could kill 3 people a minute in the hands of a trained soldier at mid-range (and an prototype breech loaders were not in mass production). Now one man can kill 50 and injure ~53 in minutes with legally owned firearms. The US seems to be the only country where mass shootings are commonplace, no matter what the motive is, I wonder why.

 

"In the past two weeks Mateen legally purchased a Glock pistol and a long gun, ATF Assistant Special Agent in Charge Trevor Velinor told reporters.

It's not known if those weapons were used in the attack.

He is not a prohibited person. They can legally walk into a gun dealership and acquire and purchase firearms. He did so. And he did so within the last week or so," Velinor said."

 

Meanwhile, in a country without a serious gun problem:

 

"To obtain a firearm certificate, the police must be satisfied that a person has "good reason" to own each firearm, and that they can be trusted with it "without danger to the public safety or to the peace". Under Home Office guidelines, Firearm Certificates are only issued if a person has legitimate sporting, collecting, or work-related reasons for ownership. Since 1968, self-defence has not been considered a valid reason to own a firearm.[45] The current licensing procedure involves: positive verification of identity, two referees of verifiable good character who have known the applicant for at least two years (and who may themselves be interviewed and/or investigated as part of the certification), approval of the application by the applicant's own family doctor, an inspection of the premises and cabinet where firearms will be kept and a face-to-face interview by a Firearms Enquiry Officer (FEO) also known as a Firearms Liaison Officer (FLO). A thorough background check of the applicant is then made by Special Branch on behalf of the firearms licensing department. Only when all these stages have been satisfactorily completed will a licence be issued, which must be renewed every 5 years."

 

"There were 0.05 recorded intentional homicides committed with a firearm per 100,000 inhabitants in the five years to 2011 (15 to 38 people per annum). Gun homicides accounted for 2.4% of all homicides in the year 2011.^[2] "

 

Besides, who shot and killed the gunman? Was it civilians armed with guns for self-defence? No, it was the armed police who arrived on the scene. It also looks like he somehow got a job at G4S which really shows how shit their security is nowadays.

 

tl,dr - just quote the 2nd amendment and live in denial, as is what usually happens after a mass shooting in the US

 

 

But Shamefurr Dispray, are you telling us this guy WASN'T member of the "well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state" - which the 2nd amendment talks about?

 

If you guys think that the problem of mass shootings will simply go away with increased gun control, you are severely underestimating the social, political, cultural and economic bankruptcy that is the reality of America today.  

[Sniper Noob]

If you guys think that the problem of mass shootings will simply go away with increased gun control, you are severely underestimating the social, political, cultural and economic bankruptcy that is the reality of America today.  

 

Is it not worth trying? Is the solution to simply say "it will never work, let's not even bother and just accept mass shootings will always happen frequently in America"? Even if it doesn't stop every mass shootings, ensuring people who buy guns are not only mentally stable but also qualified to own and operate the gun they're using seems like a good idea to me.

[Hyperqube]

Is the solution to simply say "it will never work, let's not even bother and just accept mass shootings will always happen frequently in America"?

Apparently it is.

 

And it's working like a charm.