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F  CHARLIE

Demand a change.

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Scott Bakula

I'd say what's needed is an incentive for more people to help out with keeping the Unusual pricelist up to date, as the more people you have, the easier the task becomes.

 

Make a page of outdated prices and give people a little perk for making a good suggestion of one of the items from the list, like trading card bot credits or some premium time.

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F  CHARLIE

Which is why I'd like to see the way bptf lists prices to change. Instead of listing a price it would just list the hat and you would then have to click on the hat in order to open up a price information page--which would include all past sales along with their dates. Let people price offers out on their own and then decide what an unusual is worth for themselves. 

 

 

This is done on some level already.  Each item has a graph of its price history and the past suggestions.  What we need is hats to be updated more frequently.

 

Example:  http://backpack.tf/stats/Unusual/Engineer%27s%20Cap/Tradable/Craftable/62

Since the hat came into existance, ~8 months ago, it has had 4 accepted suggestion.  I would like to see a couple more but that should be enough to validate its general worth to the market.  The hat is fairly stable. 

 

The hype against 3rd gen etc is damaging the market but so is allowing hats to go unpriced.

 

http://backpack.tf/vote/id/532d9d3d4cd7b805238b4571

 

Even tho he did not have a second sale this price is probably good especialy since it showed an offer in that range. It should have been accepted.

 

Since there are no other sites for Unusual pricing we are the one responsible for this market.  Once we can show some fluid values this will be of great service to traders. 

 

What are you going to do when Valve introduces Gen 4?  Hide under the table?

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AwesomeMcCoolName

What are you going to do when Valve introduces Gen 4?  Hide under the table?

Well, the graph is still drawing conclusions by pricing other offers, which are priced on other offers, and that still doesn't include any of the actual important information--What did it actually sell for? Will that sale ever happen again? Were the offers some-what inline with the sale? How long did it take to sell? etc... 

 

Understand, that there are 13,000~ hat-effect combinations. Assuming they need to be updated every other month, thats 6500 suggestions a month. Thats a lot of work to price and to moderate, especially when you consider that half of all unusual suggestions get closed (?). Its just not practical to keep an up-to-date list. It would make a lot more sense if there were no prices and bptf just became a database of all traceable sales. 

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Blatch

Just a quick question: why does it seem like a lot of the threads you make are pessimistic (in this case, damaging) towards the economy?

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polar

It would make a lot more sense if there were no prices and bptf just became a database of all traceable sales. 

 

That would severely detract from the popularity of the site (things like an easy pricecheck and bp values). This doesn't make sense to me. The problem is with how people use the information provided, not with the information itself. We give hats a value AND there is information about sales that you can check out by simply clicking on the suggestion.

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AwesomeMcCoolName

That would severely detract from the popularity of the site (things like an easy pricecheck and bp values). This doesn't make sense to me. The problem is with how people use the information provided, not with the information itself. We give hats a value AND there is information about sales that you can check out by simply clicking on the suggestion.

But look at Bptf target audience. For the most part it's the newer traders, the inexperienced, or the just plain stupid. Expecting them to know to take bp prices with a grain of sal is asking too much.

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F  CHARLIE

Well, the graph is still drawing conclusions by pricing other offers, which are priced on other offers, and that still doesn't include any of the actual important information--What did it actually sell for? Will that sale ever happen again? Were the offers some-what inline with the sale? How long did it take to sell? etc... 

 

Understand, that there are 13,000~ hat-effect combinations. Assuming they need to be updated every other month, thats 6500 suggestions a month. Thats a lot of work to price and to moderate, especially when you consider that half of all unusual suggestions get closed (?). Its just not practical to keep an up-to-date list. It would make a lot more sense if there were no prices and bptf just became a database of all traceable sales. 

 

With over 80% out dated or unpriced.  I am certain some suggestions could have been accepted even tho it didn't match the rules.

 

Just a quick question: why does it seem like a lot of the threads you make are pessimistic (in this case, damaging) towards the economy?

 

Many people have commented on how trading is slow and I am talking about one part of the trade economy.  The part that includes the bulk of those 13,000 hat/effect combo's.  The combined worth of all unusuals vastly out wieghs the value of all currency in the game.  In reality Unusuals must become currency and that is problematic with this guide.

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lucak

If only valve would not cut on the chances in unboxing new effects on new crates, kids keep unboxing tons and tons of cancer/new effects daily and only pro unboxers unbox old effects so in a few times old effects will become more and more and more rare over time and we will see pages of new effects for each hat on outpost.

Effects should just stay equilibrated and like same chances for all generations or there will be a lot of trash going around in the future.

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KarateMasterJarool

From the discussion I've seen in this thread, I've come to the conclusion that unusual trading is just fucked, simple as that.

 

Overpay is a fallacilical (not a word) idea, and all it does is screw up the price of unusuals, new and old. But we can't just get rid of it, it's too embedded into the system now to get rid of it, sadly.

 

Point #2 I'm neutral on. It would help unusuals be priced or re-priced, but it really does give mods too much power.

 

I actually agree with point #3. If new unusuals are being priced with outdated unusual prices, then the value of the new unusual is misconstrued, then if that unusual is used to price a new unusual...it would actually be more beneficial to just have a clean slate rather than making the massive hole you're digging yourselves into deeper and deeper.

 

If only valve would not cut on the chances in unboxing new effects on new crates, kids keep unboxing tons and tons of cancer/new effects daily and only pro unboxers unbox old effects so in a few times old effects will become more and more and more rare over time and we will see pages of new effects for each hat on outpost.

Effects should just stay equilibrated and like same chances for all generations or there will be a lot of trash going around in the future.

 

I agree. Sort of.

 

Effects shouldn't be discontinued in favor of new effects, but they shouldn't be equal in value to unbox, rather, the older effects would be rarer to unbox and the newer effects would be more common. That way new traders would still be injecting 1st gens into the market, but it wouldn't be an absolute flood of them that would destroy their value.

 

Also, we made the new effects cancer, we overpriced them, not Valve. It's our shit-pile of a problem.

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AwesomeMcCoolName

Unusual trading is actually find (and going strong actually). You just need to understand hat third gen effects will never sell at the bullshit hyped prices most people are asking. For the most part, third gens will sell for about half of what they're posted at as most third gen prices are based on other third gen prices and not pure or first/second gen.

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Kevin the Chicken God

I agree with that rules need to be slackened

I dont want to spend 15 mins finding proof that supports a planets dixie IS IN FACT like 16 keys, the amount of variance on some of that crap is so minimal its pointless to waste time on it

I kinda agree with the overpay, but yeah, Im almost done suggesting unusuals coz its such a pain

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FreeZie hc™

I agree with number 3 thats about it.

 

Overpay is absolutely still needed. I dont use bp.tf at all for unusuals unless the price was made the week of or something. Because its just not accurate in most cases, prices change with every sale and you can sell at a different price than the last it all depends on offers at the time. Ive sold Unusuals for my pure b/o when its much higher than other peoples b/os it just happens, no guarantee on prices all about what people are willing to pay but if someone sells it then that person willing to pay that much is no longer in need. People just take bp.tf prices to literally for unusuals.

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FreeZie hc™

Which is why I'd like to see the way bptf lists prices to change. Instead of listing a price it would just list the hat and you would then have to click on the hat in order to open up a price information page--which would include all past sales along with their dates. Let people price offers out on their own and then decide what an unusual is worth for themselves. 

I think thats a good idea listing all sales, why they changed, ex. then you can of course click the already helpful links to outpost and see yourself. 

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F  CHARLIE

 

 

I am going to add some thoughts to this.

 

1. No more adjustment for overpay.

 

Overpay rule is ok but can not be different for different gen effects. That's foolish. Duped hats should be allowed as proof as it does not matter for the vast majority of hats. Anyone else can add to this part. My overall desire is to make it easier for casual sellers to make a suggestion.

 

2. If a mod feels an adjustment to a suggestion is needed than the should make them and accept it.

 

If counter proof is provided a mod should be able to adjust the range in the suggestion. I have known of several cases where the suggestion gets closed and neither the original suggestor nor the counter care to make a new suggestion.

 

3. All prices that are currently out of date need to be wiped out.

 

Doing this to anything that is 6 months out of date or older is the first step in bringing the guide into the current. Being current is more important than being accurate as many have already said, you can never have an accurate guide for unusuals anyway.

 

There is no other price guide for unusuals than this one and it is the only one that can exist. Discuss.

 

Edit: MAYBE what could be done is relaxing of the rules until we can get more of the price guide into good shape, particularly any thing that is not priced and even some new effects that grossly overpriced.

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polar

Duped hats should be allowed as proof as it does not matter for the vast majority of hats.

 

This is so far from the truth and the reason I made this thread: http://forums.backpack.tf/index.php?/topic/6817-bpbs-mini-suggestion-thread-for-gifted-duped-hats/

 

In fact, in my evaluation of duped hats, I have found that the common thought that duped hats don't matter on hats worth less than 3-5 is also not necessarily true.

 

Let me be clear. I am not saying duped hats ARE worth less for every single hat. But there does seem to be a difference even on low tier hats, even if it means the hat is still able to sell for the same value but takes longer. It's sort of the same thing for duped buds. Clean, short history buds can sell for 20 keys. Duped buds will almost never sell for 20 keys. Basically, if a buyer can get a clean, short history hat for the same value, why wouldn't they?

 

In general, we tend to let duped hats in as proof on hats under 3. But just saying that a broad rule like this just isn't appropriate.

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F  CHARLIE

This is so far from the truth and the reason I made this thread: http://forums.backpack.tf/index.php?/topic/6817-bpbs-mini-suggestion-thread-for-gifted-duped-hats/

 

In fact, in my evaluation of duped hats, I have found that the common thought that duped hats don't matter on hats worth less than 3-5 is also not necessarily true.

 

Let me be clear. I am not saying duped hats ARE worth less for every single hat. But there does seem to be a difference even on low tier hats, even if it means the hat is still able to sell for the same value but takes longer. It's sort of the same thing for duped buds. Clean, short history buds can sell for 20 keys. Duped buds will almost never sell for 20 keys. Basically, if a buyer can get a clean, short history hat for the same value, why wouldn't they?

 

In general, we tend to let duped hats in as proof on hats under 3. But just saying that a broad rule like this just isn't appropriate.

 

 

The comes in that you can't make a rule based on an inconsistant activity.  If a party does not care about a hat being duped or is unaware of this fact then they are still accepting the new hat on its nonduped value.  It is a recorded sale where both parties believed certain things whether they were true or not.  It is the same as if it were true that niether hat was duped, unless you can show that one party was concerned about a hat being duped and asked for compensation for that fact.  Otherwise the transaction must be taken on face value.

 

Edit: http://backpack.tf/vote/id/53514f954dd7b86d028b467a

That is an example of where the rule should be ignored until someone can provide other sales.

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F  CHARLIE

"My suggestions get closed, change the rules.".

 

I think the problem here are not the rules.  ;)

 

The rule is meant to prevent hype pricing of new unpriced effects/hats.  I think 13 keys is not a hype price a fair place to start the hat.  Also, I don't care about rep.....at all.  None of my suggestions are designed to benefit me.  If I am angry its because of the site's failure to keep the list up to date and useful because of irrelevent application of rule and a lack of flexability.  The most important componant of the site is trashed because of the lack of current pricing. 

 

If traders are complaining about the accuracy of the site it is often because the suggested price hurts them but we know that many have over invested/have insane b/o's and the common/current transaction price of a hat must be shown. 

 

Don't point this back at me when its the site that is lacking usefull prices.  The site has evidently failed if its own rules prevent it's effectiveness.

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Woifi The Viking

The rule is meant to prevent hype pricing of new unpriced effects/hats.  I think 13 keys is not a hype price a fair place to start the hat. 

But maybe 13 keys is too low for it and a qs price and the real price is lower to a bud? It works both ways.

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F  CHARLIE

But maybe 13 keys is too low for it and a qs price and the real price is lower to a bud? It works both ways.

 

My bad on the ref thing.  pht

 

Doesn't really matter.  Its about getting it started.  Low is better and the next seller can prove it could better.

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AwesomeMcCoolName

My bad on the ref thing.  pht

 

Doesn't really matter.  Its about getting it started.  Low is better and the next seller can prove it could better.

Low isn't better.

 

Especially when there were other available sales showing that it was low.

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F  CHARLIE

Low isn't better.

Especially when there were other available sales showing that it was low.

As a quickbuyer I would feel comfortable offering 13 for the hat thinking I can sell it for 16 - 17. Establishing some kind of price leads to activity that will lead to better pricing.

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AwesomeMcCoolName

As a quickbuyer I would feel comfortable offering 13 for the hat thinking I can sell it for 16 - 17. Establishing some kind of price leads to activity that will lead to better pricing.

if its priced at 13 most low tier quick buyers will curse out anyone who asks for more than 9. 

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F  CHARLIE

if its priced at 13 most low tier quick buyers will curse out anyone who asks for more than 9.

 

Then they wouldn't get the hat as another quickbuyer would offer more. Plenty of margin.

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