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F  CHARLIE

Demand a change.

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F  CHARLIE

The Unusual price guide has become virtualy useless and I believe that it is damaging the unusual trade market. Over 80% of the each hat's effect is out of date. I demand that perfect accuracy must be sacrificed for up to date prices. The rules must be relaxed and changed.

1. No more adjustment for overpay.
2. If a mod feels an adjustment to a suggestion is needed than the should make them and accept it.
3. All prices that are currently out of date need to be wiped out.

There is no other price guide for unusuals than this one and it is the only one that can exist. Discuss.

 

Edit:  I will make a poll in Website suggestions after I get more input here.

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Bakgrund

The Unusual price guide has become virtual useless and I believe that it is damaging the unusual trade market. Over 80% of the each hat's effect is out of date. I demand that perfect accuracy must be sacrificed for up to date prices. The rules must be relaxed and changed.

 

1. No more adjustment for overpay.

2. If a mod feels an adjustment to a suggestion is needed than the should make them and accept it.

3. All prices that are currently out of date need to be wiped out.

 

There is no other price guide for unusuals than this one and it is the only one that can exist. Discuss.

 

Kind of agree about this one, remove prices that are older than 6 months or something like that completely, it never helps having old outdated prices.

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Ersin

Maybe this should be on the website suggestions?

 

But I fully agree on this. (Even if I don't have much experience)

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ᴰᵉᶜᵏ Henry

Not sure how I feel about #3, however you do realize that that would COMPLETLY change the TF2 economy? Very interesting to think about nonetheless.

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NecroTed

Not sure how I feel about #3, however you do realize that that would COMPLETLY change the TF2 economy? Very interesting to think about nonetheless.

Agreed :3 Too detrimental to the economy to do this. 

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SirMillbot

Agreed :3 Too detrimental to the economy to do this. 

 

Having 1+ year old prices that aren't even close to the real active trading price aren't real helpful to the economy either . . . .

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♠Derpeh♤

The Unusual price guide has become virtual useless and I believe that it is damaging the unusual trade market. Over 80% of the each hat's effect is out of date. I demand that perfect accuracy must be sacrificed for up to date prices. The rules must be relaxed and changed.

I stopped unusual suggesting because it simply got too annoying.

 

Want to update one hat, need to update 3 more, and to update those i gotta update even more... cbb post it on my rep thread.

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t0night

how on earth does removing overpay help the mass amounts of outdated pricing...

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F  CHARLIE

how on earth does removing overpay help the mass amounts of outdated pricing...

 

Removing item overpay calculations and any rule like it makes it easier to make a suggestion.  Remember its a guide with ranges.  It doesn't really matter exactly how accurate it is.  It matters that it represents current activity.  If everyone can see that a hat exchanges easily for certain, fairly reliable, ranges than it is easier to except it as payment as most unusual exchanges are hat for hat not hat for pure.

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polar

The Unusual price guide has become virtual useless and I believe that it is damaging the unusual trade market. Over 80% of the each hat's effect is out of date. I demand that perfect accuracy must be sacrificed for up to date prices. The rules must be relaxed and changed.

 

1. No more adjustment for overpay.

2. If a mod feels an adjustment to a suggestion is needed than the should make them and accept it.

3. All prices that are currently out of date need to be wiped out.

 

There is no other price guide for unusuals than this one and it is the only one that can exist. Discuss.

 

Edit:  I will make a poll in Website suggestions after I get more input here.

 

I can't be more against rule 1. In fact, I'd ideally like a more sophisticated way of calculating overpay, like more overpay for new effect hats.

 

A DP tc will never sell for 20 pure. It will never sell for 20 in old effect unusuals. It WILL sell for "20" in new effect unusuals. Does that mean ti is worth the same as beams stash that sells for 20 pure easily? Not at all. If anything we don't put enough overpay on hats that need it.

 

Wiping prices also makes no sense at all. This is a database. Why wipe out data points? People need to understand that our prices are estimates made at the time of the suggestion. If people are misinformed about how our pricing guide works, perhaps we need to do a better job of explaining. Wiping data is not the solution

 

As for mod adjustments, well Brad has already talked about a potential modification to the unusual pricing system in my earlier thread about "Report a Sale Functionality." We'll see what becomes of unusual suggesting if he goes that route.

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cleverpun

I agree with Polar on all points, but especially this

I can't be more against rule 1. In fact, I'd ideally like a more sophisticated way of calculating overpay, like more overpay for new effect hats.

People overestimating the liquidity of their items is actually one of the most severe missteps that inexperienced unusual traders make. Demand for new effects is simply much lower than that for older effects, and pure is always going to be more desirable than a given hat.

 

There's "perfect accuracy" (which we don't have anyway) and there's plain sloppiness. Removing overpay would completely destroy whatever utility the list has.

 

I couldn't be more against point 2; it gives the mods way too much power. It takes control away from the suggester, and for no real reason or benefit. How is waiting a day or two for the suggestion to be remade so terrible? How does letting mods edit suggestions make the process any more accurate?

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SirMillbot

I guess the ultimate question that is posed here, how to keep the accuracy of unusual pricing, but make the process more manageable. There is an issue of so many hats with really old prices that aren't accurate, and people use those prices to build a case of a sale on other hats. I think the thought of removing overpay would just streamline the pricing process but there are some issues with that in regards to accuracy as BPB pointed out. The thing about overpay, it seems a bit arbitrary with all the .9 business. I'm waiting for some person to suggest .7 if its a new effect, .8 if its a 2nd gen effect, or whatever - making the process more complicated. Maybe there can be a reward system for people to go back and reprice some of the hats with pricing of 1+ years or older?

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Mr Prince

Unusual market in nutshell highball all your own unusuals, lowball other unusuals but list them as over inflated c/o price to justify your highball price.

Backpack.tf prices usefull ? like 90% of all summer effects are unpriced lol or never updated cos everyone high balls.....  so you can't lower the price based on unsolds.

 

Anyway backpack.tf unusual price guide will never be acurate.

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Avenging Flame

I fully agree with Polar Bear here. Especially about your first suggestion. Overpay needs to stay

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F  CHARLIE

I can't be more against rule 1. In fact, I'd ideally like a more sophisticated way of calculating overpay, like more overpay for new effect hats.

 

A DP tc will never sell for 20 pure. It will never sell for 20 in old effect unusuals. It WILL sell for "20" in new effect unusuals. Does that mean ti is worth the same as beams stash that sells for 20 pure easily? Not at all. If anything we don't put enough overpay on hats that need it.

 

Wiping prices also makes no sense at all. This is a database. Why wipe out data points? People need to understand that our prices are estimates made at the time of the suggestion. If people are misinformed about how our pricing guide works, perhaps we need to do a better job of explaining. Wiping data is not the solution

 

As for mod adjustments, well Brad has already talked about a potential modification to the unusual pricing system in my earlier thread about "Report a Sale Functionality." We'll see what becomes of unusual suggesting if he goes that route.

 

 

I agree with Polar on all points, but especially this

People overestimating the liquidity of their items is actually one of the most severe missteps that inexperienced unusual traders make. Demand for new effects is simply much lower than that for older effects, and pure is always going to be more desirable than a given hat.

 

There's "perfect accuracy" (which we don't have anyway) and there's plain sloppiness. Removing overpay would completely destroy whatever utility the list has.

 

I couldn't be more against point 2; it gives the mods way too much power. It takes control away from the suggester, and for no real reason or benefit. How is waiting a day or two for the suggestion to be remade so terrible? How does letting mods edit suggestions make the process any more accurate?

 

 

1.  This suggestion should have been modified and accepted:

http://backpack.tf/vote/id/5333655a4dd7b8f3788b4572

 

Closing it also took "control" away from the suggestor.  In the suggestion Polar mentions the engie cap probably being worth less then the list but in truth its last accepted suggestion was an increase so it's value is valid.  This thread is not a complaint about my suggestion.  I only use it as an example.  I know others have examples as well.

 

In part my point number one is to say that rules should be loosened for unusual suggestions not tightened.  The strictest rules are for the three primary currencies, which is sensible, but unusuals should be more relaxed in order to capture a current consensus on them.  The amount of Unusuals vastly outways the regular price guide and it is the most important componant of the site.  It is grossely out of date and needs change.

 

Edit: There was supposed to be a point 2 so...

2.  Clearing out old prices is what needs to be done to bring the sheet into the current.  Many people are using grossely out of date prices to offer with or set bad b/o's.  we can reduce some of the problems in trading just by clearing them.

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Mr Prince

I fully agree with Polar Bear here. Especially about your first suggestion. Overpay needs to stay

 

Need more overpay calculation on new effects though, like way more then 10%

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Spu~

 

I couldn't be more against point 2; it gives the mods way too much power. It takes control away from the suggester, and for no real reason or benefit. How is waiting a day or two for the suggestion to be remade so terrible? How does letting mods edit suggestions make the process any more accurate?

This site isn't here for a suggester. It's here to give accurate pricings of what a hat is worth or sold for. Yes, mods have the possibility of abusing power, but aren't mods chosen to be trustworthy? Letting mods edit suggestions can make suggestions more accurate due to most if not all mods are accurate in pricing hats. If they can edit suggestions, failed suggestions that should have been resuggested stay unpriced/outdated. I can agree with point 2; it makes sense to me.

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polar

This site isn't here for a suggester. It's here to give accurate pricings of what a hat is worth or sold for. Yes, mods have the possibility of abusing power, but aren't mods chosen to be trustworthy? Letting mods edit suggestions can make suggestions more accurate due to most if not all mods are accurate in pricing hats. If they can edit suggestions, failed suggestions that should have been resuggested stay unpriced/outdated. I can agree with point 2; it makes sense to me.

 

We are under enough scrutiny as it is. Brad has implemented many measures to protect us even more (mods unable to make suggestions). This would be counter to that. We're talking about a lot of real world money on some of these hats and "modifications" just don't seem appropriate to me, especially when we are talking about hats worth 50+ in value.

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lucak

I don't know what changes will be better, I buy hats everyday and sell everyday and I seriously hate new effects because people always fake the price on them and there is probably no way to ever sell one for the high end on backpack.tf after it gets priced, whats the point of the 10% off  in unusuals if the price will not be accurate at all, but still there is no way that the overpay can be changed for different effects like "if the effect is kill-a-watt then 20% overpay" and so on.

 

there will never be a way to make prices accurate like in the ond days of new effects, still on outpost there are people that go around and around tradind random god tier hats with only new effects but they get nowhere because never sell them for pure example, dead pres team captain, hong kong, killer exclusive and so on

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fisk

You need to remember that there are over 1,000 possible unusual combinations. You're just going to have to take prices for the more coveted, rarer ones with a grain of salt.

 

backpack.tf is just a price guide

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F  CHARLIE

 

Need more overpay calculation on new effects though, like way more then 10%

 

 

We are under enough scrutiny as it is. Brad has implemented many measures to protect us even more (mods unable to make suggestions). This would be counter to that. We're talking about a lot of real world money on some of these hats and "modifications" just don't seem appropriate to me, especially when we are talking about hats worth 50+ in value.

 

 

Most hats are not 50+.  Who cares about those, only a few by comparison.

 

You can not have the rules be different for the different effects.  That is the worst thing to do, period.  That is why we are where we are in the first place.

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polar

The thing about overpay, it seems a bit arbitrary with all the .9 business. I'm waiting for some person to suggest .7 if its a new effect, .8 if its a 2nd gen effect, or whatever - making the process more complicated. Maybe there can be a reward system for people to go back and reprice some of the hats with pricing of 1+ years or older?

 

It is arbitrary. And I had considered making even more specific rules in the pricing guide, but F Charlie's point here is that the rules are already too complex/convoluted.

 

Furthermore, the important bit on overpay on new unusuals is their supply+demand. For example, I had a 1 of 1 on the market C9 mancer I had no problems selling for 6 pure, the same value for which I sold a hearts mancer. It would not be appropriate to count overpay as 0.7 on that. Yes, the supply-demand is related to generation of the effect, but the number on the market is, to me, a much more important consideration.

 

At the end of the day, there is no easy solution, but the rules were made by a set of mods with a lot of experience in the unusual market. Experienced unusual traders know when and when not to consider bp.tf values. Some hats with 6 month old prices are still accurately priced, whereas some hats with 2 week old prices are inaccurately priced. The number of hats on the market, the type of hat, the generation of effect are all important considerations. There is no way to both simply and accurately reflect the complexity of unusual trading. There is simply no replacement for experience. We are just trying as best as we can to capture SOME of these nuances.

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AwesomeMcCoolName

A DP tc will never sell for 20 pure. It will never sell for 20 in old effect unusuals. It WILL sell for "20" in new effect unusuals. Does that mean ti is worth the same as beams stash that sells for 20 pure easily? Not at all. If anything we don't put enough overpay on hats that need it.

Well, thats part of the problem. 

 

Right now, you'll never go 1:1 from new effects to old effects. Not because new effects suck to sell and therefore no one wants them, but rather because they're listed at over-inflated prices--and they're supported by other over-inflated prices. I.e. new effects tend to sell for more new effects, which are already overpriced as they've been based on new effects and so on. 

 

We are just trying as best as we can to capture SOME of these nuances.

Well, thats also somewhat problematic as bptf gives very little information about the unusual other than a price--realistically no one is going to check the suggestion to try and figure out what it sold for, if the offers were consistently in that range, and how long it actually took to sell.

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=NickFury=

A DP tc will never sell for 20 pure. It will never sell for 20 in old effect unusuals. It WILL sell for "20" in new effect unusuals. Does that mean ti is worth the same as beams stash that sells for 20 pure easily? Not at all. If anything we don't put enough overpay on hats that need it.

I don't believe that pretending there was an overpay would solve the issue. In the end, that would just make the hat look worth less and that's not entirely true. For one, it would be a prediction to claim that the new effect in question will not retain the trade value it had at the documented sales, and regardless how likely that might be, it's a prediction no less and as far away from objectively documenting sales as it can be. After all, deriving predictions from past sales belongs to the realm of decisions each trader has to make on his own, and it would just incite a flamewar if bp.tf would start to meddle with that. If it sold for X-Y, bp.tf shouldn't do more than objectively state that.

 

Since I'm already posting, it has to be said that it's up to each individual trader if a DP TC is worth the same as a Beams Stash. Even if you consider how much easier the Stash might sell for pure, it's still very much subjective whether someone would go through with that trade or not. The main difference is really just that one of them has a Damocles' Sword threatening a loss of value over it, which, at the bottom of it, doesn't affect any details of a documented sale. Sure, it affects how any experienced trader reads that suggestion, but that's a different thing entirely and you won't help greedy or inexperienced people to read those prices with the necessary grain of salt if you just pretend the hat is worth less. They'll just take that for a fact then. 

 

There's so many ways to visually distinguish between items. If there's really an interest to make people more aware of the different demand/liquidity/stability of a new effect, I'd believe it'd make more sense to look for solutions there. After all, the point of webdesign is to affect how the site is used, and it can definitely contribute a lot to how people treat the prices on some hats, if a clear enough distinction is made.

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AwesomeMcCoolName

-snip-

Which is why I'd like to see the way bptf lists prices to change. Instead of listing a price it would just list the hat and you would then have to click on the hat in order to open up a price information page--which would include all past sales along with their dates. Let people price offers out on their own and then decide what an unusual is worth for themselves. 

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