Hipsta Jayzus Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 I have a 1 of 2 GBH Samur-Eye. It was given this price 7 months ago. This was when robo effects were still flooding the market and considered "cancer" It was given a price range of what currently translates to 12-15 buds. Regardless of whether you think this is a fair value for it, the market has changed and shifted significantly since then and it was accepted using literally 2 (here) different trades as proof. Also, in the comments there's mention of one selling for 22+ and if you go to some of the older outpost links they mention one selling at the time for 22+. Shouldn't there be an ability to vote to clear the current suggestion until more proof is established? 7 months is a lifetime in the TF2 economy... Since then 2 entirely new generations of unusuals have spawned (halloween #3 and third generation crate effects) and their prices have changed dramatically. Maybe if an item hasn't had a vote in a long time, it shouldn't simply flag it as 6+months old, but wipe it and ask for a new suggestion? OR at least allow you to suggestion that it be wiped? This isn't the first time this has happened to me with an unusual. Thanks! **EDIT** Perhaps I started off on the wrong foot by giving my unusual as an example. This is not about MY unusuals. This is about unusuals in general. I thought mine was a good example because it is 1 of 2 and hasn't been priced in 7 months. Regardless of what you think of MY unusual, please ignore it if you need to and focus on my argument: Being able to wipe unusual's prices via vote or automatically if there is not enough current proof of trades. For a better explanation and argument as to why I believe this would be a good thing, please read my reply here. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
v³ Unknown NO FEAR Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 Instead of "clearing" the current price, why not suggest a new one if you really think that the real value is more? (Which I highly doubt by the way). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hipsta Jayzus Posted March 30, 2014 Author Share Posted March 30, 2014 Because it's 1 of 2 and I do not have proof of other sales. I've kept mine for a long time and the other hasn't been on the market very often. This is the problem with unusuals that are rare / limited. And regardless of what you think about its current price, my unusual is simply an example. There are many others on the market with the same fate: rare / may not be unboxed again and priced long ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanny Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 *long thing i didn't read* im 15 mom i can do whatever i want Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hipsta Jayzus Posted March 30, 2014 Author Share Posted March 30, 2014 You're grounded mister. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curly Brace Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 We don't clear prices because they're outdated mainly because then it's considered to be an unpriced unusual again. You're more than welcome to sell yours and make a price on it if you don't like it being outdated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hipsta Jayzus Posted March 31, 2014 Author Share Posted March 31, 2014 We don't clear prices because they're outdated mainly because then it's considered to be an unpriced unusual again. You're more than welcome to sell yours and make a price on it if you don't like it being outdated. What's wrong with having an unpriced unusual? There's a general feeling among this community that it's their burden to try to price every single unusual. Why? Pricing unusuals is difficult and some of them are nearly impossible. They're so subjective and dependent on the particular buyer / seller in combination with the hundreds of thousands of possible hat / effect combinations. On top of that, there is a VERY small active group who submit prices for unusuals. It is amazing how many high end unusual owners simply do not use this site and absolutely do not suggest / vote on prices. Personally, I would think that having unpriced unusuals because there is little evidence / lack of current evidence would be better than trying to give a particular number to every unusual possible simply to do it. It's just bad science. Low tier unusuals that are consistently on the market should easily be priced, no problem with that, but 1 of 2 hats ? Hats that have effects that may never spawn again ? Hats that were priced over 6 months ago using literally 2 examples ? That's pretty ridiculous. I suppose one could turn a blind eye to the effects backpack.tf has on pricing such unusuals. "if you don't like the price, sell it higher!" well here's the issue, when your hat has been priced by backpack.tf the value has a tendency to stick simply because of how many people do not understand unusual trading, do not actually invest themselves into this hobby, and simply want to make a buck / profit. The best traders out there will tell you to ignore backpack.tf on such items. They know that the prices are just suggestions and that proof of 2 trades for months ago doesn't really mean anything. However, this isn't true of most traders. Most unusual traders today rely on backpack.tf because they have no ability to determine values themselves... which is what the unusual hat community was founded on: knowing and predicting values. Accepting and allowing values like this to stick is damaging to backpack.tf's image, the unusual market, the ability for unusual traders to learn how to price items themselves (a skill at the core of successful unusual trading), and traders themselves who want to have a one of a kind (or nearly) unique unusual whose value isn't really fully known all because of the desire for a very very small portion of the trading community to feel as though they've contributed to the site and to give a feeling of completeness and it's really pretty ridiculous. There should be much more strict rules on pricing and unusuals who have little proof and very old proof should be able to either voted on to be cleared, or simply clear themselves. What I'm going on about here, in my opinion, is one of the more damaging PR aspects of this site. Besides people whining about keys (who typically do not understand basic economics anyway) the tendency to quickly price unusuals, and pretty much every unusual, without astounding proof is what causes many high unusual traders to scoff at this site. Why sacrifice the integrity of the site for the illusion of utility? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♠Derpeh♤ Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 Instead of "clearing" the current price, why not suggest a new one if you really think that the real value is more? (Which I highly doubt by the way). Because it's 1 of 2 and I do not have proof of other sales. I've kept mine for a long time and the other hasn't been on the market very often. This is the problem with unusuals that are rare / limited. And regardless of what you think about its current price, my unusual is simply an example. There are many others on the market with the same fate: rare / may not be unboxed again and priced long ago. This took me a few mins to find... Solds: http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/16889535 He sold for a arcana company man **not priced but there is one on the market unsuccessful at selling for 12 buds for 2 months... http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/16638991 Seems like it sold for a duped(?) scorching headwarmer Yeah doesnt look like it went up... Edit: if anyone wants to use these as proof feel free too (i havent double checked it tho.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hipsta Jayzus Posted March 31, 2014 Author Share Posted March 31, 2014 This took me a few mins to find... Solds: http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/16889535 He sold for a arcana company man **not priced but there is one on the market unsuccessful at selling for 12 buds for 2 months... http://www.tf2outpost.com/trade/16638991 Seems like it sold for a duped(?) scorching headwarmer Yeah doesnt look like it went up... Edit: if anyone wants to use these as proof feel free too (i havent double checked it tho.) I was using my unusual as an example. I've had plenty of other unusuals that suffered a similar fate. This is about an overall site suggestion when it comes to unusuals. I do not need personal help pricing / suggesting my unusual. Perhaps you may want to argue that my unusual is a bad example? Edit: Also, selling for an Arcane Company man 2 months ago may have seemed like a better idea at the time, Arcane was being considered one of the higher tier effects of the new Halloweens but now seems they're sort of evening out. Also, he mentions adding him and asking him to add to it, it's possible he squeezed something else out of him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d0 ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 I don't see what the big deal is, outdated unusual are more used as "last solds" or what the value was ~x months ago. If it badly need a drop or increase, then update it yourself. It's not that hotfixed/buffed items get price reset just because they changed them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HusKy Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 I don't think this is going to happen. Old prices already have the warning sign. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AwesomeMcCoolName Posted March 31, 2014 Share Posted March 31, 2014 I don't think this is going to happen. Old prices already have the warning sign. Implying the average user has enough brain power to comprehend that warning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hipsta Jayzus Posted April 2, 2014 Author Share Posted April 2, 2014 "JUST SET A NEW PRICE IT, OUR SYSTEM ISN'T FLAWED" Cue master's yellow belt's being sharked left and right. Congratz guys. Now consider this idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AwesomeMcCoolName Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 "JUST SET A NEW PRICE IT, OUR SYSTEM ISN'T FLAWED" Cue master's yellow belt's being sharked left and right. Congratz guys. Now consider this idea. not sharked* And wiping their prices would probably lead to more "sharkings". Its worthwhile to consider: With the current prices the sellers will get "sharked" but wiping prices would allow sellers to manipulate prices and "shark" then buyer. But again, neither is sharking as you can't shark a(n) (unusual) trader. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hipsta Jayzus Posted April 2, 2014 Author Share Posted April 2, 2014 wiping prices would allow sellers to manipulate prices and "shark" then buyer. Is this is shared concern that people have on this site? That we MUST price every item to protect against sharking? Is that what you're implying? Because the majority of real sharkings happen to people who likely don't even know backpack.tf exists. And yeah, maybe not sharking, but definitely gaining a large theoretical value out of a trade because one person isn't in the know about the price change that's occuring. At the very least, that little warning indicator should be much more blatant, not just larger, but something like a window that pops up when you hover over the item like "caution, this item's price is probably not up to date due to: reasons" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjjon123 Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 So you want bp.tf to just delete the outdated prices because they are "too old"? Riiiiiiiiiight... You do not simply delete entries in a reference database because they get "too old", that is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. If the price is wrong or outdated then you update it, if you cannot find enough proof to update it then you just *leave it*. A vaild entry is always a valid entry no matter how old it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shpiro Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 Backpack.tf is a price guide. It (mostly) does not dictate the market for experienced traders Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hipsta Jayzus Posted April 3, 2014 Author Share Posted April 3, 2014 Backpack.tf is a price guide. It (mostly) does not dictate the market for experienced traders Yeah, instead it dictates the market for 99% of traders who are mostly newbs who can't make a single decision without backpack.tf So you want bp.tf to just delete the outdated prices because they are "too old"? Riiiiiiiiiight... You do not simply delete entries in a reference database because they get "too old", that is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. If the price is wrong or outdated then you update it, if you cannot find enough proof to update it then you just *leave it*. A vaild entry is always a valid entry no matter how old it is. Yeah, meanwhile I've suggested an ability to vote on their removal, an ability to simply flag them with a warning when you hover over them (something more than a little red dot in the top right) or to have much more strict guides when giving prices to things in general, and more specifically on items that are very rare and 1 of 2 for instance. "a valid entry is always a valid entry no matter how old it is" wtf does that even mean? you people worship this site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AwesomeMcCoolName Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 Yeah, instead it dictates the market for 99% of traders who are mostly newbs who can't make a single decision without backpack.tf Yeah, meanwhile I've suggested an ability to vote on their removal, an ability to simply flag them with a warning when you hover over them (something more than a little red dot in the top right) or to have much more strict guides when giving prices to things in general, and more specifically on items that are very rare and 1 of 2 for instance. "a valid entry is always a valid entry no matter how old it is" wtf does that even mean? you people worship this site. And those same morons who can't make a decision without backpack.tf.....they already refuse to buy unpriced unusuals. If unusuals prices get wiped then they won't buy anything. And it wouldn't matter how obvious a warning you gave, people still wouldn't read it. "you people". I take offense to that, and I believe what he was getting at was the fact that if a price is there a/multiple sales have occurred at that price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjjon123 Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 "a valid entry is always a valid entry no matter how old it is" wtf does that even mean? you people worship this site. If you knew anything about databases and how they function, you would know that deleting or disposing of "old" entries goes against everything a reference database is designed to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hipsta Jayzus Posted April 3, 2014 Author Share Posted April 3, 2014 If you knew anything about databases and how they function, you would know that deleting or disposing of "old" entries goes against everything a reference database is designed to do. We're talking about unusual trading, pricing, and how the backpack.tf system has flaws and ways to fix them, that aren't that revolutionary, or difficult and your bringing in "I see you don't know much about databases" into this and it's basically offtopic and petty. "you people". I take offense to that, and I believe what he was getting at was the fact that if a price is there a/multiple sales have occurred at that price. Sorry I should say "some" of you people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AwesomeMcCoolName Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 Ultimately, I think this is the wrong approach. The issue has more to do with the ways people use bptf and less to do with the method in which it prices/stores prices. Backpack.tf stores a price and thats it. It fails to consider ease of sale--How long did it take to sell? days/weeks/months? Did it get decent offers regularly, or was the sale a one-time offer thats not likely to ever be matched? It doesn't tell you what it sold for (unless you check the suggestion)--So the price is listed at 5 buds, but you wouldn't even touch the unusual it sold for for 5 buds and all other offers are 3 buds--i.e. in your mind the price would be more like 3 than 5. thirdly, it doesn't consider different types of overpay. Overpay can mean an overpay in value, or an overpay can mean that you like their hat more, or it could mean that you think their hat is an easier sale. Bptf clumps everything together into a value-overpay. So, wiping older prices would just be an attempt to fix this problem, but I don't believe it would really help. I'd much rather see something to help users figure out how to actually use backpack.tf. People just need to learn/understand that backpack.tf is a price estimate--its supposed to be used as a crutch to get a quick estimate on an offer. Ex: Someone offers on your hat, backpack.tf should be used to get a rough estimate on that offer in order to know if you should even bother looking into (considering) it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hipsta Jayzus Posted April 3, 2014 Author Share Posted April 3, 2014 People just need to learn/understand that backpack.tf is a price estimate--its supposed to be used as a crutch to get a quick estimate on an offer. Ex: Someone offers on your hat, backpack.tf should be used to get a rough estimate on that offer in order to know if you should even bother looking into (considering) it. and it's the failing of both the users / casuals and the site itself to encourage this that has given this site the nickname bible.tf People take the prices almost literally and it is having an ultimately negative effect on unusual trading in general. Yet here we are with nearly every response to my ideas having some hint of "what's wrong with the current approach?" or "if it's not broke don't fix it". and people repeating the mantra that "unpriced is bad! prices = good" It's dead jim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AwesomeMcCoolName Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 and it's the failing of both the users / casuals and the site itself to encourage this that has given this site the nickname bible.tf People take the prices almost literally and it is having an ultimately negative effect on unusual trading in general. Yet here we are with nearly every response to my ideas having some hint of "what's wrong with the current approach?" or "if it's not broke don't fix it". and people repeating the mantra that "unpriced is bad! prices = good" It's dead jim. I agree entirely, backpack.tf has messed up unusual trading as its created a bunch of people who will nickel and dime everything even if they actually want the hat. But, the issue isn't really with the site itself or how prices are set but more how people use the site. If people would just use the site properly, then the current system would be just fine. And unpriced unusuals end up being worse than unusuals with an outdated price. Not to mention that if prices were wiped after 2-3 months then it would be impossible to have prices on everything as every suggestion would require a mini-suggestion, which would require a mini suggestion. There just around enough suggesters considering that there are like 20,000 hats. P.s. This is all predicated on bp.tf maintaining an unusual price guide--which I personally don't think can ever properly work (for a multitude of reasons). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 I have a 1 of 2 GBH Samur-Eye. It was given this price 7 months ago. This was when robo effects were still flooding the market and considered "cancer" It was given a price range of what currently translates to 12-15 buds. Regardless of whether you think this is a fair value for it, the market has changed and shifted significantly since then and it was accepted using literally 2 (here) different trades as proof. Also, in the comments there's mention of one selling for 22+ and if you go to some of the older outpost links they mention one selling at the time for 22+. Shouldn't there be an ability to vote to clear the current suggestion until more proof is established? 7 months is a lifetime in the TF2 economy... Since then 2 entirely new generations of unusuals have spawned (halloween #3 and third generation crate effects) and their prices have changed dramatically. Maybe if an item hasn't had a vote in a long time, it shouldn't simply flag it as 6+months old, but wipe it and ask for a new suggestion? OR at least allow you to suggestion that it be wiped? This isn't the first time this has happened to me with an unusual. Thanks! **EDIT** Perhaps I started off on the wrong foot by giving my unusual as an example. This is not about MY unusuals. This is about unusuals in general. I thought mine was a good example because it is 1 of 2 and hasn't been priced in 7 months. Regardless of what you think of MY unusual, please ignore it if you need to and focus on my argument: Being able to wipe unusual's prices via vote or automatically if there is not enough current proof of trades. For a better explanation and argument as to why I believe this would be a good thing, please read my reply here. Thanks. Hey, I owned one. anyways, I disagree with it (plus i dont think your gonna get more than 10 for it ;x). To be honest with you, I think your just gonna run off and say there is no price set on bp.tf just to get them to overprice a shitload. Im downvoting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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