Don't allow users with multiple accounts to have the same listing

[Toad]

We already have a similar rule for this regarding sell orders. I'd like to apply this to buy orders as well, to curb monopolies and spam.

 

My suggestion is:

1) A user should not be able to create multiple duplicate listings for the same item using multiple accounts. 

2) A user should not be able to create multiple duplicate listings using the same account.

 

For example, below user is using two accounts for the same listings for buy orders and multiple sell orders:

 

https://backpack.tf/u/76561199072654974

https://backpack.tf/u/76561198453530349

 

I am worried that in the future, this could get out of hand. I suggest we put a rule in place now before that could happen.

[LaughingLollipop]

it makes sense, but imagine trying to enforce it

 

if the accounts aren't named the same/in a pattern or publicly listing their affiliation how would anyone know?

 

also literally every single gladiator bot is technically the same owner (gladiator) yet they spam classies to no end

[Starbucks®]

Like I said in the discord. Its a free market

[MILF Gaming]

Yeah, unfortunately like @LaughingLollipop said, it'd unfortunately be a nightmare to enforce. You'd have to conclusively prove that two accounts with buy orders are alts of each other, which is already difficult in it's own right. And with those gladiator bots, I'm sure there's people that rent and have b/o's through them, and then also have those same b/o's on their main, or across multiple bots. Then when the report comes in, if they're no longer renting the bot, or they don't link their main account to bots, the user gains plausible deniability unless there's definitive proof connecting them. A lot of people reporting probably wouldn't read or understand the high evidence requirements for reports like this as well, which is already an issue with user reports in general. The understaffing of bp on top of it would honestly just make sifting through the numerous reports that come in on a daily basis that much worse on the report mod(s). Believe me, it sounds like an amazing idea and I'd love to see something like that effectively implemented, but I don't think it'd be something feasible at this time.

[Major]

It is two different hats though. Should it be against the rules to list each instance of the item individually from one account as well?

[Toad]

43 minutes ago, MILF Gaming said:

Yeah, unfortunately like @LaughingLollipop said, it'd unfortunately be a nightmare to enforce. You'd have to conclusively prove that two accounts with buy orders are alts of each other, which is already difficult in it's own right. And with those gladiator bots, I'm sure there's people that rent and have b/o's through them, and then also have those same b/o's on their main, or across multiple bots. Then when the report comes in, if they're no longer renting the bot, or they don't link their main account to bots, the user gains plausible deniability unless there's definitive proof connecting them. A lot of people reporting probably wouldn't read or understand the high evidence requirements for reports like this as well, which is already an issue with user reports in general. The understaffing of bp on top of it would honestly just make sifting through the numerous reports that come in on a daily basis that much worse on the report mod(s). Believe me, it sounds like an amazing idea and I'd love to see something like that effectively implemented, but I don't think it'd be something feasible at this time.

ip address, we already ban alts using this.

[Beaser]

monopolizing is fun

 

as long as you donate $2000 to the holy god of listing donations

[gege hates anime]

introducing a new spot on the backpack staff team! the basement dweller whos job is to just dig as much unnecessary shit as he can 

if someone knows what to do, they cant be caught. so it would be a hard rule to implement efficiently 

[MILF Gaming]

2 hours ago, Toad said:

ip address, we already ban alts using this.

Right, I'm more getting at that it isn't at all uncommon for people (especially scammers) to ban evade using a VPN. Bots are also going to be on different IP's if they're not hosted by the owner locally, in which case you still have to link them through other means. And a similar IP isn't always a definitive alt either (people in the same household, internet cafe, etc.). What I mean is that it's already difficult (and usually takes a ton of time) to definitively prove alts if they know what they're doing. It'd be the same with users looking to artificially pump b/o's with bots or otherwise.

 

Once again I just wanna reiterate I'm not at all saying it's a bad idea, or that I personally wouldn't like to see it (because that'd be sick if there was an efficient way to work it), I just don't think the staff here has the resources to allocate to all those extra reports, on top of what's already in the issue tracker. As much as it sucks, I'd rather see the issue tracker get cleared and see it have the ability (and resources) to keep it up-to-date with every report that comes in in a timely fashion before thinking about taking something like that on.

[🔥Master Throne Crimson🔥]

Just group buy orders made by the same user/same user and their alt together like sell orders

[Toad]

30 minutes ago, Master Throne Crimson said:

Just group buy orders made by the same user/same user and their alt together like sell orders

 

[Seminal Inhalation]

The mods can't even come remotely close to keeping up with reports and rule breakers. This just seems like more unnecessary work to add to their already overfilled plate. Backpack.tf doesn't need more rules (at the moment), they need more staff members.

[Toad]

11 hours ago, Seminal Inhalation said:

The mods can't even come remotely close to keeping up with reports and rule breakers. This just seems like more unnecessary work to add to their already overfilled plate. Backpack.tf doesn't need more rules (at the moment), they need more staff members.

So we shouldn't implement rules because mods might not be able to cover it? I don't understand the reasoning. 

 

Firstly, not many people are breaking this rule, it's a select few people. It's literally a rule already applied to sell orders, it's just an extension of it. Lastly, having the rule itself is still a deterrent.

 

I suspect not implementing this rule could result in a large breakdown of the site due to monopolization -- we are already seeing it, better to nip it now rather than wait.

[eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee]

18 hours ago, Toad said:

ip address, we already ban alts using this.

for that to work our moderation has to be meta wikimedia-level because of the VPNs and the seemingly infinite amount of IP's they offer which wont happen soon or anytime at all  

[Toad]

2 hours ago, eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee said:

for that to work our moderation has to be meta wikimedia-level because of the VPNs and the seemingly infinite amount of IP's they offer which wont happen soon or anytime at all  

So since it doesn't always work, we should allow scammer alts and such? I'm confused by user's points of, "well, we can't stop all of it so"... it's kind of a really bad argument.

[eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee]

6 minutes ago, Toad said:

So since it doesn't always work, we should allow scammer alts and such? I'm confused by user's points of, "well, we can't stop all of it so"... it's kind of a really bad argument.

im not saying to allow scammer alts and such, the ip address method is a bit unreliable and the staff cant deal with the ongoing issues already.implenting the ip system method is a death wish because it adds a lot of work such as unbanning the wrongly banned,checking and comparing behavioral and technical data to see if someone is a scammer alt or not (which in itself is an extremely time-consuming task) and the list goes on

[Toad]

7 minutes ago, eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee said:

im not saying to allow scammer alts and such, the ip address method is a bit unreliable and the staff cant deal with the ongoing issues already.implenting the ip system method is a death wish because it adds a lot of work such as unbanning the wrongly banned,checking and comparing behavioral and technical data to see if someone is a scammer alt or not (which in itself is an extremely time-consuming task) and the list goes on

By that reasoning, since it adds so much work and that staff are overwhelmed, why not start getting rid of rules then?

[3.50]

23 hours ago, Toad said:

I'd like to apply this to buy orders as well, to curb monopolies and spam.

This is unnecessary and kind of silly. 

 

As far as monopolies:

 

It would be expensive, and would be of no benefit, to create and maintain a monopoly.  You need to have the pure available on each account in order to make the buy listings, and you have to keep it on hand to keep the listings visible. 

 

So yeah, you can make 10 accounts and make 10 buy orders for a 50-key hat, but it takes 50x10=500 keys to make those orders and keep them visible.  Creating and maintaining a monopoly wouldn't be worth it. 

 

But more importantly, what benefit would you even actually gain from having this monopoly?  If your buy order is the highest, anyone selling to buy orders will pick you, whether you have the one highest or the ten highest orders.  And if your prices aren't the best, you don't get the top spot and basically no one will sell to you, regardless of how many accounts you have with buy orders.

 

As far as your specific example, it looks to me like that ScrapyardBot has created multiple accounts primarily because one is literally >95% full, and he has thousands more items in addition.  So it doesn't appear to be any sort of attempt at monopoly, but simply the fact that he's scaled up so far that one account with 3,000 slots is not enough to handle his business.

 

As far as spam:

 

Spam doesn't matter because all anyone cares about is the top price offered by a functional account/bot/script to accept offers.

 

If someone is making duplicate buy orders on multiple accounts, it really won't be functionally different than just making the buy orders on one account and making sure to keep it stocked with pure.  It might feel frustrating to see multiple buy orders from one guy at the top, but it really doesn't matter if it's one or a thousand--what matters is if he's offering the best price or not.

 

Any buy order from someone else that is offering more will be listed above all of those duplicate orders, so it doesn't matter if it's one or a thousand, and any buy order for less than the best price will be ignored by 99% of sellers anyway if there is even one higher buy order.  So one account with the highest prices will almost always get the sale, and 100+ accounts that don't have the best prices will almost never get the sale. 

[Toad]

1 hour ago, 3.50 said:

It would be expensive, and would be of no benefit, to create and maintain a monopoly.

Then why are people doing it?
 

 

1 hour ago, 3.50 said:

Creating and maintaining a monopoly wouldn't be worth it. 

Says...?

 

1 hour ago, 3.50 said:

what benefit would you even actually gain from having this monopoly?

The ability to dominate buy orders. There's a reason why sell orders are "folded in", ie, selling 5 keys is one listing. It prevents spam and such.

 

1 hour ago, 3.50 said:

As far as your specific example, it looks to me like that ScrapyardBot has created multiple accounts primarily because one is literally >95% full,

He literally has identical listings on both accounts. He's creating it to take over more listings.

 

1 hour ago, 3.50 said:

If someone is making duplicate buy orders on multiple accounts, it really won't be functionally different than just making the buy orders on one account and making sure to keep it stocked with pure.

Except for the fact that you have two buy orders up compared to one of everyone else.

[3.50]

4 minutes ago, Toad said:

Then why are people doing it?

Who is doing it?  The one example you provided is a person who literally has too many items to fit in one account.  He also has the resources to create dozens/hundreds of accounts with identical buy orders if he thought that would benefit him, and yet, he isn't doing that.  As far as I know (or at least, as far as you have shown) he is using 2 accounts, which is the absolute minimum number of accounts he needs to store all his items.

 

5 minutes ago, Toad said:

Says...?

Says me, and I explained why.  Did you read what I wrote?

 

6 minutes ago, Toad said:

The ability to dominate buy orders. There's a reason why sell orders are "folded in", ie, selling 5 keys is one listing. It prevents spam and such.

You don't "dominate buy orders" unless you are actually offering the best prices.  If you are offering the best prices, you're going to be listed at the top and dominate, even with a single account.  If you don't have the best prices, your listings--no matter how many accounts you have--will not be at the top, and will not dominate buy orders in any way.  I explained this as well.

 

12 minutes ago, Toad said:

He literally has identical listings on both accounts. He's creating it to take over more listings.

That's one interpretation of his actions, but it's not really the most logical one.  Maybe he's got so many items that one account may end up being completely full at times, and he wants to make sure that doesn't make him lose out on trades at those times, and/or maybe he wants to make sure his listings stay active even if one account is running low on pure.  And I'll point out again that he's got huge amounts of resources--if he thought that taking over tons of listings and monopolizing the buy orders would give him an advantage, why would he stop at 2 accounts? 

 

17 minutes ago, Toad said:

Except for the fact that you have two buy orders up compared to one of everyone else.

Again, it doesn't matter how many listings he "takes over"--listings are shown with the highest prices at the top, so the only spot that really matters at all is the very top spot, offering the very best price.  The moment that one person creates a single buy order offering more than you, you lose the top spot, and it doesn't matter if you have spots 2 through 1,000--the guy offering the best price will get most of the offers.

 

Bottom line is this: 

 

1. You haven't shown any evidence of anyone trying to "take over" or "dominate" buy orders.  The one guy you used as an example clearly isn't actually trying to do that, because he has the resources to create dozens of accounts, and hasn't done that.  You still need to provide some proof that the issue actually exists.

 

2. It doesn't make any sense to use brute force and sheer numbers of accounts to monopolize, because listings are shown in order of best price.  All that really matters is the top spot, so all you need for an effective monopoly is a single account that is able to maintain its buy orders with the highest prices, and keep the top spot.

[Toad]

This is likely my last reply to you as it appears you don't understand how classifieds work. The more ads you have, the likely you are to be discovered and traded. If you have multiples of the same buy order that are the highest, you're more likely to be clicked on. Users don't automatically pick the top because generally, the top users are buying paints or specific variants. So they scroll through the offers and oh look -- this guy has multiple listings and they are more likely to click on his. If users aren't buying specific variants, bots rotate who is at the top because they autocut and have the same prices depending on who made them. Having multiple bots means more chances of being near the same.  I shouldn't have to explain this to someone who has such a strong opinion on something he has little experience with.

 

  

41 minutes ago, 3.50 said:

Who is doing it? 

Several people, especially in the unusual trading community.

 

41 minutes ago, 3.50 said:

The one example you provided is a person who literally has too many items to fit in one account.

So they should be allowed to make double listings? How about have a storage account like the rest of us?

 

41 minutes ago, 3.50 said:

and yet, he isn't doing that.

Yet he is. 

 

41 minutes ago, 3.50 said:

Says me, and I explained why.

You aren't any type of authority on the matter, that was my point. It also appears you don't use classifieds much from your reasoning -- you're literally defending sales spam.

 

41 minutes ago, 3.50 said:

You don't "dominate buy orders" unless you are actually offering the best prices.

You absolutely can dominate buy orders. Bots auto cut which makes them the highest. Multiples of the same bot means your bot will display it'

 

41 minutes ago, 3.50 said:

If you are offering the best prices, you're going to be listed at the top and dominate

No... you'll be overcut by a bot.

 

41 minutes ago, 3.50 said:

That's one interpretation of his actions, but it's not really the most logical one.

Having two accounts with the same listings is pretty clear cut. 

 

41 minutes ago, 3.50 said:

Again, it doesn't matter how many listings

Again, it absolutely does. Users scroll through offers generally, and with how bots auto-cut, having multiples of the same listing will absolutely create spam and dominate that one listing.

 

41 minutes ago, 3.50 said:

1. You haven't shown any evidence of anyone trying to "take over" or "dominate" buy orders.

Except I did.

 

41 minutes ago, 3.50 said:

The one guy you used as an example clearly isn't actually trying to do that

He clearly is.

 

41 minutes ago, 3.50 said:

because he has the resources to create dozens of accounts, and hasn't done that.

You don't know what his resources are.

 

41 minutes ago, 3.50 said:

It doesn't make any sense to use brute force and sheer numbers of accounts to monopolize

That's honestly the most stupidest take I've ever heard. Everyone uses autocut bots so they rotate who is on top. More bots, more chances you'll be near the top. I said it before, it's clear you don't understand how classified ads work.

[3.50]

 

58 minutes ago, Toad said:

This is likely my last reply to you as it appears you don't understand how classifieds work.[...]someone who has such a strong opinion on something he has little experience with. 

 

I hope it is your last reply.

 

You don't know what experience I do or do not have, to be clear, but just for the record, I've been trading on multiple platforms since it was a thing, so I have reasonably extensive experience.

 

58 minutes ago, Toad said:

Several people, especially in the unusual trading community.

Making vague claims with no evidence just makes you look like you're making things up.

58 minutes ago, Toad said:

So they should be allowed to make double listings? How about have a storage account like the rest of us?

He appears to be actively trading with more than 3,000 items.  How is he supposed to manage that with only one account?  Putting them in a storage account would mean he couldn't trade with them.  Think it through before speaking.

 

58 minutes ago, Toad said:

Yet he is.

Oh, so he IS creating a bunch of accounts and taking over all the listings?  Or even just taking over the whole first page?  Please provide an example of him using more than the 2 accounts that he needs in order to trade with his 4,000+ items, or else admit that you're full of it.

 

58 minutes ago, Toad said:

You aren't any type of authority on the matter, that was my point. It also appears you don't use classifieds much from your reasoning -- you're literally defending sales spam.

You don't have to be an authority on a subject to be able to understand it.  I used logic and facts to make points, and you don't seem to be able to answer them. 

 

58 minutes ago, Toad said:

You absolutely can dominate buy orders. Bots auto cut which makes them the highest. Multiples of the same bot means your bot will display it'

You only need one bot to dominate buy orders, and it only takes one bot to come along and destroy any level of domination.  Even if you had a million bots, a single, quicker bot could still dominate the top spot, and the whole market.  How quickly and effectively a bot is able to overcut and maintain the top spot determines how effective it is at domination, not how many copies of itself there are.  Everyone generally ignores all the listings after the first one, because they are straight up worse offers.  It's not like sell listings, where the items might be slightly different, or might be painted or spelled.  Buy orders literally just offer pure, and only differ in amount.

 

58 minutes ago, Toad said:

No... you'll be overcut by a bot.

Yes, you will--and that applies equally to someone running multiple bots.  They'll be overcut just as hard, which completely removes the advantage of having multiple accounts.  Why can't you see that?

 

58 minutes ago, Toad said:

Having two accounts with the same listings is pretty clear cut.

If it is so clear cut, then why do we disagree on it?

 

58 minutes ago, Toad said:

Again, it absolutely does. Users scroll through offers generally, and with how bots auto-cut, having multiples of the same listing will absolutely create spam and dominate that one listing.

Hahahaha...what?  Are you just typing words without engaging your brain at all?  Users looking to dump an item to buy orders are not going to "scroll through offers"!  They are going to pick the listing offering the highest amount of pure.  They're in a hurry, and want the most pure in the shortest amount of time.  They're going to grab the top listing almost 100% of the time, because any listings below it are offering less.

58 minutes ago, Toad said:

Except I did.

I ask you this.  If we assume the following:

 

1. This guy wants to take over buy order listings, and believes it will give him an advantage...

2. He knows how to create multiple bots (this is evident from the fact that he is running 2)...

3. He has the resources to create multiple bots (this is evident from the fact that he is running 2 bots and has an ~$85,000 inventory between them...

 

Then why has he not created a dozen bots running the same listings, or even just enough to cover the first page?  If more is better, then why has he stopped at 2?

 

If he wants to take over, and he clearly has the resources and knowledge to do it, then why is he not taking over?!

58 minutes ago, Toad said:

He clearly is.

See previous response.

58 minutes ago, Toad said:

You don't know what his resources are.

He has at least ~$85,000 worth of hats, which anyone with half a brain can see due to his public inventory on his bots.

 

58 minutes ago, Toad said:

That's honestly the most stupidest take I've ever heard.

I take it you've never gone back and read some of the things you've written.

58 minutes ago, Toad said:

 I said it before, it's clear you don't understand how classified ads work.

It is indeed clear that one of us does not understand how they work, but I'm afraid it's you.  They're really simple.  Best price goes at the top.  When discussing buy orders, nearly everyone picks the top listing nearly all of the time (provided the listing is functional, the bot is simple and effective, etc), because the offers below are going to be identical except for the fact that they are offering less.  Offers below the top listing really don't even come into play at all in the vast majority of cases.

 

58 minutes ago, Toad said:

Everyone uses autocut bots so they rotate who is on top. More bots, more chances you'll be near the top. I said it before, it's clear you don't understand how classified ads work.

Ok soooooo why isn't this guy, who you used as an example of this, using as many bots as possible?  Your own arguments defeat each other.

 

You just seem to be angry and looking for someone to blame, completely unwilling to listen to what anyone has to say, and either unwilling to use your critical thinking skills to think through the issue, or simply not possessing those skills to the necessary extent.

[Toad]

On 3/3/2022 at 5:19 PM, Master Throne Crimson said:

Just group buy orders made by the same user/same user and their alt together like sell orders

Actually now that I think about this, this may be fairly difficult to implement and could cause issues. I think our best, easiest bet is to set a rule.

[🔥Master Throne Crimson🔥]

16 hours ago, Toad said:

I think our best, easiest bet is to set a rule.

Nah

[Toad]

8 hours ago, Master Throne Crimson said:

Nah

It definitely is.