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Allow -rep for fake classified listings


LaughingLollipop

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-rep should be allowed against someone with a buy order for not accepting an offer for that buy order.

Especially in the condition in which they subsequently change that order to be lower/offer back less.

 

The user should bear a rep mark so that future persons have some indication that their listings are not going to be honored.

Traders often use a buy order to determine if they take deals/buy items to resell to a buy order, to place a false buy order is to intentionally (visibly and obviously) manipulate the perceived value of an item.

 

 

I placed a -rep for the following; it was removed.

image.thumb.png.7b71027ef3107448da3937cd4398a87a.png

Hence this suggestion.

 

 

 

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There's no reservation when it comes to buy/sell orders, so there isn't the same risk associated with what you'd give a -trust for. You shouldn't be pricing an item off of a single buy order anyways. Spamming fake buy orders is already a reportable offense, -trust would apply then. Going back on a single order though, it's all that can be done to either have them remove it themselves, or a mod.

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50 minutes ago, Brown said:

You shouldn't be pricing an item off of a single buy order anyways

Not necessarily true. It is not the shoppers' responsibility to check the poster has updated their price. When you go to a store, they are mandated to sell for the price listed. Can you imagine if they changed it in front of you and said "You didn't check the other stores first and see that we were priced incorrectly?". 

It is the classies poster who is responsible for updating prices. If they are an outlier (excluding circumstances where 12 ref is posted for an unusual instead of 12 keys), that's on them. They should be reported for false advertising.

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-rep should be allowed in those cases. If you can't keep up with the changing market conditions for an item which you have a buy order for then why put one up in the first place?

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2 hours ago, Zeus_Junior said:

Report them

 

as soon as they decline or offer you less they remove the buy order

 

if they relist I guess I could report that one

 

currently this user has no order

 

how do I report someone who literally removes the order when they decline?

how do you suggest I make it very obvious to others that they are falsely listing buy orders?

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3 hours ago, Zeus_Junior said:

Report them

Wasn't there a big ol' thread like last week about how this does nothing because all those reports get "noted" and closed?

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2 hours ago, Brown said:

There's no reservation when it comes to buy/sell orders, so there isn't the same risk associated with what you'd give a -trust for. You shouldn't be pricing an item off of a single buy order anyways. Spamming fake buy orders is already a reportable offense, -trust would apply then. Going back on a single order though, it's all that can be done to either have them remove it themselves, or a mod.

 

The rules have 1 sentence for buy orders

Buy Orders

  1. You must be willing to buy the item immediately for the price listed.

 

So without using the term directly a buy order is described as defacto a 'reservation'

 

If you are offered that item for the price YOU picked, you are expected to immediately buy the item.

 

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As an aside

 

The choice of the word 'reservation' in itself holds a multitude of real world use cases and connotations.

Apparently here in tf2 land ya'll have decided a 'reservation' is a 100% no possibility of change lock.

 

And meanwhile in real life, Hotels cancel your reservations if they feel like it/switch you to the smoking room cause they overbooked.

Restaurants take a reservation and then tell you it'll be another hour.

Amazon will literally sell you an item then not charge you and email you a month later that they've no stock.

Airlines love making reservations, they take your money and then change the flight times/delay and cancel at will.

And in all these cases, guess what; the other side can cancel too!

Unless penalties/special rules are enumerated at the time of reservation these instances can be undone by either party, at any time!

 

A 'guarantee' real life reservation of a product is really only ever accomplished with a deposit paid; and even then, is anything actually 100%?

This type of deposit is atypical in tf2 to say the least.

 

Thanks for coming to my TED talk on why the word 'reservation' is a misnomer in TF2 trading.

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This is how I handle these situations;

  • See a classified that has a good price
  • Screenshot classified (whole screen as per bp rules)
  • Send offer
  • Screenshot offer
  • Wait

Either they accept and you're happy or they pull some bullshit and they are guilty. If guilty, upload to imgur and report including the link.

It doesn't cost much time to make the moderators job a lot easier. Perhaps they can't act on every report because they receive so many without very little context or evidence.

 

Quote

but that's so much effort

it would be if I did this for every trade but I only do it when I have a suspicion that they will pull a move. If it's only a refined or two above bots, its not worth the effort. When they are paint buyers at 20 refined above unpainted values and a wall of text in the classies, I do this. 

Yes that's a low-tier example but the logic holds at any item. 

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3 hours ago, Zeus_Junior said:

Report them

I think what people are asking is;

What exactly is the policy here. 

 

If you (the mods) receive a report; what information do you need and what is the follow through. Is it a three-strikes deal? Are there exceptions? Do bots get treated the same?

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3 hours ago, [RCR] The Red Cross said:

They should be reported for false advertising.

 

2 hours ago, LaughingLollipop said:

 

The rules have 1 sentence for buy orders

Buy Orders

  1. You must be willing to buy the item immediately for the price listed.

 

So without using the term directly a buy order is described as defacto a 'reservation'

 

If you are offered that item for the price YOU picked, you are expected to immediately buy the item.

 

For breaking backpack's rules, I think reporting makes the most sense. A trust rating implies there was some kind of mutual agreement that was broken. These agreements usually go both ways, I reserve an item for you and you promise to pay for it, there's risk in having to collect keys to fund the purchase, and there's risk in losing potential buyers if the deal falls through. The listing owner is obligated to fill that listing when offered their buyout, per site rules, but not by any mutual agreement. No one is obligated to take a seller or buyer up on their listing. They've only broken the site rules. You can't really hand out -trusts for every site rule broken, something like trading with scammers, I think you just report.

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10 hours ago, LaughingLollipop said:

how do I report someone who literally removes the order when they decline?

You find their profile page and make a "user report" using a red flag icon.

Contrary to some Mods are saying, I believe it is the preferred way to make a report even if the listing is still there.

 

 

9 hours ago, [RCR] The Red Cross said:

This is how I handle these situations;

Some corrections:

  • Mods ask for a screenshot while hovering on item (one of the reasons is to prove that Buy Order was a generic one not with some parts or other modifications)
  • No need to make a screenshot of trade offer immediately as it can be found later at https://steamcommunity.com/my/tradeoffers/sent/?history=1

 

Tip: OneDrive already comes with windows 10 and has an option to automatically save screenshots. Which means you only need to press "Print Screen" key on your keyboard every time you want to save a screenshot "just in case".

 

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6 hours ago, [RCR] The Red Cross said:

I think what people are asking is;

What exactly is the policy here. 

 

If you (the mods) receive a report; what information do you need and what is the follow through. Is it a three-strikes deal? Are there exceptions? Do bots get treated the same?

4 hours ago, D.Alex said:

You find their profile page and make a "user report" using a red flag icon.

Contrary to some Mods are saying, I believe it is the preferred way to make a report even if the listing is still there.

Both ways are fine for a declined trade. Yes, everyone gets treated the same. Evidence requirements are in the guide for reporting

Only downside to classifieds reports generally is that if the listing is removed and there is no screenshot of the listing, then we don't know who/what you reported in a classifieds report

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When I usually do that because someone already sent a offer sooner so I leave a comment on that person's profile wjo I'm gonna cancel and saying I'm sorry someone already sent an offer sooner than you

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there are times when bots do this. is it then acceptable to report the bots as well? i had a dark age strangifier, it was better to sell it applied than un-applied. so i applied and sent an offer. BAM i get countered with lower price. 

so whats the protocol in this instance?

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6 hours ago, Ali Salar said:

When I usually do that because someone already sent a offer sooner so I leave a comment on that person's profile wjo I'm gonna cancel and saying I'm sorry someone already sent an offer sooner than you

In this case it will come up saying "Items no longer available" and reject the trade. This is evidence enough that you have already sold them.

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On 11/19/2021 at 10:52 AM, Zeus_Junior said:

Only downside to classifieds reports generally is that if the listing is removed and there is no screenshot of the listing, then we don't know who/what you reported in a classifieds report

Yes @LaughingLollipop always report the user, not the listing. Also always keep a tab of the original listing open when you send the user an offer, then when they decline you can screenshot that listing or screenshot the listing before the offer is sent, do it correctly and the user will get a warning/ban.

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On 11/19/2021 at 12:32 AM, LaughingLollipop said:

-rep should be allowed against someone with a buy order for not accepting an offer for that buy order.

Especially in the condition in which they subsequently change that order to be lower/offer back less.

 

The user should bear a rep mark so that future persons have some indication that their listings are not going to be honored.

Traders often use a buy order to determine if they take deals/buy items to resell to a buy order, to place a false buy order is to intentionally (visibly and obviously) manipulate the perceived value of an item.

 

 

I placed a -rep for the following; it was removed.

image.thumb.png.7b71027ef3107448da3937cd4398a87a.png

Hence this suggestion.

 

 

 

 

On 11/19/2021 at 2:57 AM, n_n said:

-rep should be allowed in those cases. If you can't keep up with the changing market conditions for an item which you have a buy order for then why put one up in the first place?

 

As opposed to this id have a feature request. Could we see how many warnings someone has for dishonoring their listings right next to their bp.tf rep? Would be very useful in determining how reputable they are.

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Rep is used for trusting people with risky trades, for example if you are doing a Paypal trade for steam items, one of you must go first which puts the one that went first at risk, if then the other guy follows through then you can presumable trust him to do the same with someone else.

Fake buy order =/= Risky trade

However as stated in above posts it is a violation of the Buy Order rule, so follow through with the report.

 

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  • 5 months later...
On 11/21/2021 at 3:20 AM, Goldman Sachs said:

Rep is used for trusting people with risky trades, for example if you are doing a Paypal trade for steam items, one of you must go first which puts the one that went first at risk, if then the other guy follows through then you can presumable trust him to do the same with someone else.

Fake buy order =/= Risky trade

However as stated in above posts it is a violation of the Buy Order rule, so follow through with the report.  
 drift f1

great ideas. thank you.

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