How To Fix Pyro (Pubs/Comp Ideas)

[TheTexanBuzzsaw]

(Before I start, I want to say that I have no disrespect towards people who play/main Pyro. I think it’s an amazing class to play, and as an Engie main I really appreciate Pyros. Keep being awesome.) 
 

I think it’s safe to say that Pyro is not the most fun class to fight sometimes. I don’t have a problem with Flare Punch Pyros, I don’t have a problem with Phlog Pyros, and I don’t have a problem with Scorch Shot Pyros. My issue with the class, or more specifically, the Primary Weapons the class uses, are in need of another balance change. After Jungle Inferno, W + M1 Pyro became (unintentionally) very strong. While I really appreciate the consistency to flame particles and damage that came with this change, I feel like this change made Combo Pyro a secondary gimmick to just walking forward and burning everything. 
 

Here’s what I think would work better. Let’s reduce flame damage, but increase afterburn damage. I don’t have any exact numbers, but that’s the general idea. 
 

Why do I think this would work? I think relying on a D.O.T. effect would finally give Pyro an obvious, defined class role; a flanker. Instead of just running headlong into the enemy, your objective would be finding the best unexpected position to light as many people on fire as possible, and have a quick route of escape. The problem with Pyro is that while he has high DPS, his health of 175 isn’t high enough to truly capitalize on this, especially since he needs to be in melee range to do reliable damage. Repeated “get in and get out” type of attacks would be the best way of dealing damage. Let the afterburn do the work. This would not only make the Detonator and the Thermal Thruster more viable secondary choices, but would also require more skill on the Pyro player’s part to do damage. More so, this would give light classes more time to react to Pyro, and not just result in an instant death This would also encourage more players to use Jarate and Mad Milk to extinguish teammates, something I wish more players would do. 
 

I hope this makes sense. Please give me some feedback in the comments. If anyone else has any ideas feel free to let me know. 
 

(Thanks to Alex_ for pointing out whether or not this should be changed for Casual or Competitive. I don’t play Comp so I have no clue how that would effect the meta.)

 

[DRIFTA]

how to fix pyro: remove the class from the game

[TheTexanBuzzsaw]

1 minute ago, DRIFTA said:

how to fix pyro: remove the class from the game

See that’s the negative attitude towards Pyro I was trying to avoid. It’s not the class, just a few of its weapons that need an adjustment. 

[ArkanistCrook]

As someone who clock 5500 hours into tf2 as a pyro only main

1 hour ago, DRIFTA said:

how to fix pyro: remove the class from the game

 

This unironically. Pyro has & always has been garbage/underpowered & the pyro update was a glorified soft nerf.

Gave up on Pyro years ago.

[Zeus_Junior]

Increase afterburn damage? You crazy?

[TheTexanBuzzsaw]

6 minutes ago, Zeus_Junior said:

Increase afterburn damage? You crazy?

I’m not talking huge amounts, just enough to balance a decrease in flame damage. I want to make W + M1 less appealing and encouraging flanking plays over just walking at the enemy and hoping they don’t get a crit

[eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee]

pyro cant be fixed he is fundementally broken

[TheTexanBuzzsaw]

9 minutes ago, eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee said:

pyro cant be fixed he is fundementally broken

Well that’s just taking the easy way out and giving up. Maybe instead of increasing afterburn damage, something else could change. Currently, the effects of afterburn degrade healing/shields by 20%. Maybe increase this number to 30-35%? Also, if flame damage shouldn’t decrease, maybe the ammo that Pyro holds for the Flamethrowers could be reduced from 200 to something like 175 or 150 to discourage W + M1 all the time. Regardless, I think flame damage needs to decrease, and something needs to increase to balance that change.  

[Alex_]

Are you trying to balance pyro for competitive or casual play? This is an important distinction to make before discussing any changes.

[hyro]

25 minutes ago, ǍгᴋᴀɴД ₭ɪлʛ said:

This unironically. Pyro has & always has been garbage/underpowered & the pyro update was a glorified soft nerf.

Gave up on Pyro years ago.

Yeah... Flare punch + axtinguisher combo dealing enough damage to kill every single class in the entire game is definitely underpowered....

Pyro is definitely more than balanced class, you just need to know what the fuck you're doing

[TheTexanBuzzsaw]

2 minutes ago, Alex_ said:

Are you trying to balance pyro for competitive or casual play? This is an important distinction to make before discussing any changes.

You know I never thought of that. That’s a really good point. That’s my bad.

[TheTexanBuzzsaw]

7 minutes ago, hyro said:

Yeah... Flare punch + axtinguisher combo dealing enough damage to kill every single class in the entire game is definitely underpowered....

Pyro is definitely more than balanced class, you just need to know what the fuck you're doing

Yeah but honestly how many Pyros do you see trying to Combo nowadays? I want to implement a change that makes W + M1 less of an option and encourages Combos.

[Alex_]

6 minutes ago, TheTexanBuzzsaw said:

Yeah but honestly how many Pyros do you see trying to Combo nowadays? I want to implement a change that makes W + M1 less of an option. 

Not many. Primarily due to the high skill ceiling required and little payoff compared to WM1 pyro. It seems like you're just trying to fix WM1 - something increased afterburn damage will definitely not help with. 

[hyro]

11 minutes ago, TheTexanBuzzsaw said:

Yeah but honestly how many Pyros do you see trying to Combo nowadays? I want to implement a change that makes W + M1 less of an option. 

w + m1 takes skill if you want to use it effectively (without ubercharge up your ass that is). Obviously you CAN brainlessly w+m1 into enemy team but even if you kill someone you will most certainly die right beside him. Pyro has all the tools you need to be effective, you just need to use them right.

[TheTexanBuzzsaw]

12 minutes ago, Alex_ said:

Not many. Primarily due to the high skill ceiling required and little payoff compared to WM1 pyro. It seems like you're just trying to fix WM1 - something increased afterburn damage will definitely not help with. 

Yeah I guess you’re right. Spreading out the same damage really doesn't do any good. 

[TheTexanBuzzsaw]

11 minutes ago, hyro said:

w + m1 takes skill if you want to use it effectively (without ubercharge up your ass that is). Obviously you CAN brainlessly w+m1 into enemy team but even if you kill someone you will most certainly die right beside him. Pyro has all the tools you need to be effective, you just need to use them right.

See but I feel like all WM1 is brainless. Unless you’re camping one single area I really don’t see how just running and gunning can be skillful. Sure, picking your fights and HP/Ammo management and positioning come into effect, but that’s not really MW1 then. I’m just trying to figure out where the divide between skill and nub is. 

[hyro]

10 minutes ago, TheTexanBuzzsaw said:

See but I feel like all WM1 is brainless

Brainless WM1 will get you killed no matter the situation. If pyro is not utilizing airblast or/and is not using phlog with crits it's going to get you killed. I have no idea where is the problem

[ZealLad77]

1 hour ago, eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee said:

pyro cant be fixed he is fundementally broken

 

Care to elaborate rather than dropping such a big statement and leaving?

[TheTexanBuzzsaw]

26 minutes ago, hyro said:

Brainless WM1 will get you killed no matter the situation. 

Very true

[TheTexanBuzzsaw]

So if my idea wouldn’t work, does anyone else have any suggestions? Maybe limiting the amount of ammo that can be fired at a time. Like you can shoot 15 ammo worth of fire and then there’s like a 1 second cool down time?

[Norah]

Pyro is probably in the best state they've ever been, and they still suck. Frankly I think they could use a <buff> to their direct flamethrower damage, if anything. They're too much effort necessary for an average combat power, Pyro's best utilities at the moment are support through denying enemy approaches and spreading fire damage to disincentivise the enemy from pushing, not DPS. Not to mention any kind of distance or burst damage makes the Flamethrower basically a waste of time.

 

Buff those primaries. Give 'em a chance.

[ZealLad77]

I agree with your notion that his afterburn damage should be increased. In addition to this, his flamethrower's range and spread should be increased, whilst decreasing his flamethrower's direct damage. 

 

Such changes would help better establish Pyro's one unique niche that he fufills that no other class does. No, it isn't his airblast because every class has knockback. It isn't his combo-play style either since you have classes like Demoman who use their pipes + stickies in conjunction, same with Soldier's rockets + shotgun. 

 

It's his ability to place a lingering status-effect on enemies that slowly drains their health. Afterburn is what truly makes Pyro stand out, it's literally in his name. 

 

Pyro is the only dedicated softener/damage-over-time class. While every other class CAN deal chip-damage, Pyro is obviously the best at it since his afterburn from primary weapons not only weakens medi gun healing, but it also places a damage-over-time status effect that chips away at enemy HP even after the Pyro leaves or dies.

 

Because of this, I would definitely agree that this is the aspect of Pyro that should be focused on the most right now. By increasing his range & flamethrower spread, he will have an easier time softening enemy crowds so your team can finish them off easier. His main problem in competitive is his lack of mid-range damage, by making these changes that would also fix the problem as he can now deal damage at a greater range.

 

This would also increase his reliance on combo-play and using his secondaries for damage due to the direct damage decrease that his flamethrowers would receive as a trade-off for their extended range and spread. In more 1v1, direct, cqc scenarios he will have to rely on shotgun or flare combos to deal burst damage.

 

[TheTexanBuzzsaw]

@BrotherThat’s what I’m saying m8. You’ve just phrased it A LOT better than I have lol. I want combo Pyro to be more worthwhile than WM1. If I wasn’t out of Reactions for today you’d get one. 

[ZealLad77]

16 minutes ago, Norah said:

Pyro is probably in the best state they've ever been, and they still suck. Frankly I think they could use a <buff> to their direct flamethrower damage, if anything. They're too much effort necessary for an average combat power, Pyro's best utilities at the moment are support through denying enemy approaches and spreading fire damage to disincentivise the enemy from pushing, not DPS. Not to mention any kind of distance or burst damage makes the Flamethrower basically a waste of time.

 

Buff those primaries. Give 'em a chance.

 

As you said, Pyro's ability to deny enemy approaches, spread fire damage and overall just weaken the enemy team is his best ability right now and is actually what makes Pyro unique. So if they were to buff Pyro's primaries they should cater towards those supportive aspects rather than his direct combat ability. They should do this by increasing the flamethrower's range and spread but also nerfing the direct damage.

Instead, such direct combat damage shouldn't really be given to his primaries but rather his secondaries. I say buff the Flare gun, give it better reload speed. I'd say buff the Detonator as well by giving it increased damage and reducing self-damage from blast jumps. 

[ZealLad77]

Just now, TheTexanBuzzsaw said:

@BrotherThat’s what I’m saying m8. You’ve just phrased it A LOT better than I have lol. I want combo Pyro to be more worthwhile than WM1. If I wasn’t out of Reactions for today you’d get one. 

Thank you.