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Uncraftable Wearables / Festives / Retired


Hank Peggy Bobby Luanne

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The price of keys has been skyrocketing, as you may know, but the affect that this should have on anything but items tied to the production of ref should be next to nothing. Many of you must realize that players exist who have numerous alt accounts and who idle them simultaneously using programs like Sandboxie, and Bootcamp. The unstoppable production of refined metal through idling has been flooding the market, and therefore driving up the price of keys. This production of refined has been driving down the value of most craftable items, and, unfortunately, items which should not be affected by this in any way. There are a number of types of items which are not tied to the sinking ship that is refined metal. As crafted hats and other accessories become more commonplace as refined metal floods into the market, uncraftable items will make up a smaller and smaller percentage of the hat population. Shouldn't their market value reflect this increased rarity? There are, of course, other items which cannot be produced with refined metal such as retired hats, and festive weapons. So far this web site, backpack.tf, has not made any effort to reflect the fact that these items are not tied to the value of refined metal. Festive weapons in particular are no more common or more rare now that keys have increased in price. Please consider when voting for price changes. 

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So far this web site, backpack.tf, has not made any effort to reflect the fact that these items are not tied to the value of refined metal. Festive weapons in particular are no more common or more rare now that keys have increased in price. Please consider when voting for price changes. 

 

if you feel a price is inaccurate, find some proof for your claim and make a suggestion.  it's as simple as that.

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if you feel a price is inaccurate, find some proof and make a suggestion.  it's as simple as that.

I'm sorry but I don't have time for citing outpost trades and arguing with teenagers. It could be fun to attempt it but I just don't have the time. Right now, however, I'm trying to get a discussion going... I'm saying that tf2 metal vs. key "price parity" needs to depend on more than just trending observations based upon the trades of the very same idle farmers producing this metal. TF2 Finance is a great site for tracking the values of TF2's standard currencies, it would be nice if this community could learn to differentiate which item values should be based on which currency standards. 

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The price of keys has been skyrocketing, as you may know, but the affect that this should have on anything but items tied to the production of ref should be next to nothing. Many of you must realize that players exist who have numerous alt accounts and who idle them simultaneously using programs like Sandboxie, and Bootcamp. The unstoppable production of refined metal through idling has been flooding the market, and therefore driving up the price of keys. This production of refined has been driving down the value of most craftable items, and, unfortunately, items which should not be affected by this in any way. There are a number of types of items which are not tied to the sinking ship that is refined metal. As crafted hats and other accessories become more commonplace as refined metal floods into the market, uncraftable items will make up a smaller and smaller percentage of the hat population. Shouldn't their market value reflect this increased rarity? There are, of course, other items which cannot be produced with refined metal such as retired hats, and festive weapons. So far this web site, backpack.tf, has not made any effort to reflect the fact that these items are not tied to the value of refined metal. Festive weapons in particular are no more common or more rare now that keys have increased in price. Please consider when voting for price changes. 

I don't think you know how this works. The users suggest.

http://backpack.tf/vote/id/514103274bd7b86e2100000c

http://backpack.tf/vote/id/5136e11c4bd7b8172f000010

http://backpack.tf/vote/id/51305e05ba2536b03900001a

http://backpack.tf/vote/id/512aebafba2536f03b00001c

etc.

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I'm sorry but I don't have time for citing outpost trades and arguing with teenagers. It could be fun to attempt it but I just don't have the time. Right now, however, I'm trying to get a discussion going... I'm saying that tf2 metal vs. key "price parity" needs to depend on more than just trending observations based upon the trades of the very same idle farmers producing this metal. TF2 Finance is a great site for tracking the values of TF2's standard currencies, it would be nice if this community could learn to differentiate which item values should be based on which currency standards. 

go to another website then, if you disagree with the prices here. We're not your slaves nor your prostitutes.

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I'm sorry but I don't have time for citing outpost trades and arguing with teenagers. 

 

great start to a civil discussion

 

The site reflects the economy, it does not dictate it.  Perhaps the economy does not behave in a rational way, but it is not the responsibility of the site to tell them how to behave.

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great start to a civil discussion

 

The site reflects the economy, it does not dictate it.  Perhaps the economy does not behave in a rational way, but it is not the responsibility of the site to tell them how to behave.

I'm not trying to insult anyone, I'm telling you the literal truth. This site dictates prices, one way or the other it's users need to talk about it's approach to reflecting actual market data in these prices instead of just voting prices up or down because these users have or want certain items. I'm not saying all users behave this way, but there is little to encourage people not to vote in this manner.

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I'm not trying to insult anyone, I'm telling you the literal truth. This site dictates prices, one way or the other it's users need to talk about it's approach to reflecting actual market data in these prices instead of just voting prices up or down because these users have or want certain items. I'm not saying all users behave this way, but there is little to encourage people not to vote in this manner.

This site does NOT dictate prices....if it did, then prices would never change. Think about it, if backpack.tf dictate the prices then no one would ever buy/sell for less, and therefore the price would never need to change. 

 

And, if a price is truly that inaccurate it would have been fixed by now. Most non-unusuals get fixed pretty quickly once its price differs by more than 15%.

 

Also, votes aren't the deciding factor for that very reason. Mods have final call to prevent people from voting based on their own desire.

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it's users need to talk about it's approach to reflecting actual market data in these prices instead of just voting prices up or down because these users have or want certain items. I'm not saying all users behave this way, but there is little to encourage people not to vote in this manner.

 

You should probably hang out in the forums a bit and see what has been talked about before telling us what needs to be discussed.  There is even a forum for discussions relevant to the website.  Yes, there are users who vote in their best interest.  This is especially evident in key suggestions, which you will notice are approved for accuracy despite popular disapproval.  The reputation system is in place to encourage users to read up on what they are voting on.

 

Your arguments don't seem to be much more than rumors or assumptions.  Perhaps I'm misinterpreting.

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Ok, let me get this straight. You are saying that the items you mentioned are "discontinued" so their value should not drop because ref drops, right? Because obviously they have nothing to do with each other. I agree. I also agree with the fact that items rarer than buds should be worth more than buds.

 

But, well.... Welcome to the Mannconomy! Were nothing makes sense!

 

Let's take, for example. the festive ubersaws. 3 months ago they were 1-1.33, then they rapidly dropped to 0.88-1. Afterwards, they stabilized at 1 ref, which is basically the same as 0.88-1. All this while the keys went up and ref went down. So, festive ubersaws went down.

 

-But wait! - You must be thinking.

-Festive ubersaws have nothing to do with metal! Why are they still 1 ref?! They shouldn't be dropping like ref is! - You might be asking yourself.

-Oh shucks!  - You realized - I'm in the Mannconomy! Where nothing makes sense!

 

 

[Also moved]

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go to another website then, if you disagree with the prices here. We're not your slaves nor your prostitutes.

how abusive Chief?

people use the word "whore" on the forums (non great below) and on suggestions too. They get no warnings.

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This site does NOT dictate prices....if it did, then prices would never change. Think about it, if backpack.tf dictate the prices then no one would ever buy/sell for less, and therefore the price would never need to change. 

 

And, if a price is truly that inaccurate it would have been fixed by now. Most non-unusuals get fixed pretty quickly once its price differs by more than 15%.

 

Also, votes aren't the deciding factor for that very reason. Mods have final call to prevent people from voting based on their own desire.

Excuse me, the users / members / voters / mods of this site democratically dictate prices. This site is accepted as the standard. 

 

Having said that I find it very strange that while the value of refined metal is plummeting, the value of a festive ubersaw remains fixed. 

 

Ok, let me get this straight. You are saying that the items you mentioned are "discontinued" so their value should not drop because ref drops, right? Because obviously they have nothing to do with each other. I agree. I also agree with the fact that items rarer than buds should be worth more than buds.

 

But, well.... Welcome to the Mannconomy! Were nothing makes sense!

 

Let's take, for example. the festive ubersaws. 3 months ago they were 1-1.33, then they rapidly dropped to 0.88-1. Afterwards, they stabilized at 1 ref, which is basically the same as 0.88-1. All this while the keys went up and ref went down. So, festive ubersaws went down.

 

-But wait! - You must be thinking.

-Festive ubersaws have nothing to do with metal! Why are they still 1 ref?! They shouldn't be dropping like ref is! - You might be asking yourself.

-Oh shucks!  - You realized - I'm in the Mannconomy! Where nothing makes sense!

 

 

[Also moved]

 

Oh look, someone gets it. 

 

3 months ago a festive ubersaw was worth 1.33 metal but a key was only worth 3.66 which meant 2 festive ubersaws were equal in value to 1 key. The price drops to 1 ref, ok, seems fair, there was a lot of unboxing over the holidays... but then it stops. No one can unbox anymore, and festive ubersaws stay at 1 ref while people try to sell their extras, and buy what's missing from their sets. Maybe the value climbs .11 for a week, idk, but it settles down again at 1 ref. 1 ref was about 28% of a key at the time.

 

This all seems reasonable to me, except for the fact that this site does nothing to connect these values to the rise and fall of the values of these commodities of keys and ref. 

 

You say nothing makes sense within the mannconomy, well it could make slightly more sense. Unfortunately there are no measures in place to make sure a festive ubersaw doesn't drop from being 28% of key to 25% of a key. 

 

Thanks for not flaming me immediately, btw. 

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Excuse me, the users / members / voters / mods of this site democratically dictate prices. This site is accepted as the standard.

 

Yes, many people blindly trust the site.  That should not change its purpose.  If we were to dictate the prices, we would set them higher/lower than they really are, and the mannconomy would lag until it is equal.  I feel I don't even need to argue that this isn't true.  If you look at suggestions, they basically say, "people are buying for more than the current value" or "people are selling for less than the current value".  The traders dictate the prices and the site lags behind.  I feel nothing will convince you of that though, so I'll let it be.

 

This all seems reasonable to me, except for the fact that this site does nothing to connect these values to the rise and fall of the values of these commodities of keys and ref.

 

Why would we do anything?  People are selling their Festive Ubersaws for 1 refined.

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Yes, many people blindly trust the site.  That should not change its purpose.  If we were to dictate the prices, we would set them higher/lower than they really are, and the mannconomy would lag until it is equal.  I feel I don't even need to argue that this isn't true.  If you look at suggestions, they basically say, "people are buying for more than the current value" or "people are selling for less than the current value".  The traders dictate the prices and the site lags behind.  I feel nothing will convince you of that though, so I'll let it be.

 

 

Why would we do anything?  People are selling their Festive Ubersaws for 1 refined.

You don't have to convince me, you just need to recognize the fact that we agree on the state of dynamics between pricing and backpack.tf users. 

 

As for "why would <backpack.tf> do anything?" all I can say is that it would help reflect consistently accurate community pricing if some items fluctuated automatically, or could be voted on as a category. Inflation of refined should not cause the value of discontinued items to drop, it should do exactly the opposite. I understand that this site was created to serve its users, but the lack dynamic automation based on key and ref standards creates a false pretense for price changes. 

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You don't have to convince me, you just need to recognize the fact that we agree on the state of dynamics between pricing and backpack.tf users. 

 

As for "why would <backpack.tf> do anything?" all I can say is that it would help reflect consistently accurate community pricing if some items fluctuated automatically, or could be voted on as a category. Inflation of refined should not cause the value of discontinued items to drop, it should do exactly the opposite. I understand that this site was created to serve its users, but the lack dynamic automation creates a false pretense for price changes. 

Why should items change as a whole? items are bought/sold individually and really have no effect on one-another, so changing prices on a set of items as a whole would just lead to horribly inaccurate prices.

 

Also, bptf is clearly doing something right since the majority of the prices listed are quite accurate, so why change anything?

 

Furthermore shifting the prices of items categorically would be dictating prices. The current system works fine. People vote, admins check to make sure the voters are correct, and then the suggestion gets accepted. 

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As for "why would <backpack.tf> do anything?" all I can say is that it would help reflect consistently accurate community pricing if some items fluctuated automatically, or could be voted on as a category. Inflation of refined should not cause the value of discontinued items to drop, it should do exactly the opposite. I understand that this site was created to serve its users, but the lack dynamic automation based on key and ref standards creates a false pretense for price changes. 

 

I do understand what you are suggesting and it makes sense in theory.  I just disagree that it should be implemented because I prefer the current philosophy of the site (document current prices).

 

automation could also run into problems for certain items, such as craft hats.

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Why should items change as a whole? items are bought/sold individually and really have no effect on one-another, so changing prices on a set of items as a whole would just lead to horribly inaccurate prices.

 

Also, bptf is clearly doing something right since the majority of the prices listed are quite accurate, so why change anything?

 

Furthermore shifting the prices of items categorically would be dictating prices. The current system works fine. People vote, admins check to make sure the voters are correct, and then the suggestion gets accepted. 

 

If an item's value is based on the value of refined metal then a change in the value of refined metal should affect the value of that item proportionately. If an item is discontinued and can no longer be obtained then it's value should be based upon the value of keys. If these fluctuate then it would not be changing anything to automatically adjust items to reflect their actual value. This would not be "dictating prices," it would be an accurate representation of price scaling. 

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Wait, so you want backpack.tf to automatically change its prices based off of what "makes sense" and raise or lower the price of a group of items just because it "should" be that way?

 

no thx

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The inflation should have an effect on the prices of items, kind of like in the real world. Years ago, gas was much cheaper, but inflation has lowered the value of the dollar, which has caused the price of gas to go up, even though the gas itself is no different than what it was before the price increased.

 

So according to this site's history, at the beginning of January, the price of a key was 3.11-3.33 ref and the price of a festive ubersaw was .88-1 ref. 1/(10/3) = .3 so a festive ubersaw was worth 30% of a key that time. Now the price of key is 4.22-4.33 ref and the price of a festive ubersaw is 1 ref. If I use 4.22 ref for my key price, 1/(12/3) = .25 so a festive ubersaw is worth 25% of a key now. Did its price really fall? If we adjust the price for metal inflation and make it so a festive ubersaw is still worth 30% of a key, then it should be worth 1.2 ref which would round out to 1.22 ref. I got that number through simple algebra and the price remains the same percentage of a key. It seems like anything that's currently priced in terms of ref should go up if adjusted for metal inflation.

 

Should an item's price be DEPENDENT of the value of metal relative to a key or should it INDEPENDENT of the value of metal relative to a key?

If we let it be dependent, then we adjust for inflation as keys rise and it will still be worth the same relative to a key. If we let it be independent, then we don't adjust for inflation as keys rise and let the price of the item fall relative to a key, even though we say that it's worth the same in metal.

 

I don't think we can firmly answer that question until we can answer this one: should the price of items be based off of metal or based off of keys?

 

And to finish this, here's some food for thought. If we were to adjust buds for metal inflation, what would happen? What implications would it have on the top sector of the TF2 economy, the Unusual Market? That's some scary stuff. Like the real world economy. I'm going to go to bed now and pray that I don't have nightmares about a recession in TF2.

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Years ago, gas was much cheaper, but inflation has lowered the value of the dollar, which has caused the price of gas to go up, even though the gas itself is no different than what it was before the price increased.

 

Source?  I don't think gas prices are that constant, nor our inflation this erratic.

 

FHLHYif.gif

 

I don't think we can firmly answer that question until we can answer this one: should the price of items be based off of metal or based off of keys?

 

Are you talking about the site or the mannconomy?  For the site, we should set our prices based on what people are buying/selling for, be it metal or keys.  If we have an item priced at 1 key, then keys rise to 5 ref and people are still only paying 4 ref for the item, then our price is inaccurate and we update it.  It doesn't matter to us if the price should have gone up as the key went up.  Eventually it will fix itself in the mannconomy (if it needs fixing).  If keys rise high enough, people will start to value their key more than that item and the price will be lower than 1 key.

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Well rarity doesn't equal demand.

sorry but this is not what i'm talking about, though i recognize this statement to be true. 

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To put it simple: there's nothing we can do. If people sell the festive ubersaws for 1 ref, the price is 1 ref. Posting, let's say, 0.25 of a key implying 1 key is 4 ref, and keys go up to 5 ref. People still sell festive ubersaws for 1 ref, we would have to change it to 0.2 of a key?

 

I think it's fine just as it is, don't you?

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