ajdislikesyournamingpolicy Posted June 12, 2021 Share Posted June 12, 2021 Community Callout: Erik Good morning/afternoon/evening all. I might as well introduce myself first. My name is aj, sometimes known as AJ, but more recently, just aj is fine. I do the trade, make the price suggest, kinda chill around a couple discord servers, the usual. I uh, work a full time job now, it’s tons of fun, saps a lot of my energy and time so this post took a bit to come out. I’d like to first post a few disclaimers: 1) aj, this is slander and harassment of a community admin, I can’t believe you’ve done this and I’m going to just report this post and never read it, screw you and your opinion. I mean that is a perfectly fine response, albeit, a little aggressive but is all good. Please draw your attention to this area: https://forums.backpack.tf/topic/31871-forum-rules/ Rule 2: “Don't insult or harass other users. It doesn't matter if the user is a marked scammer or community admin or even an entire community. It doesn't matter if YOU think it's funny. Think about anything you write from the perspective of a stranger or the person you are harassing. If your comments are offensive to others, don't put it down. This goes for any kind of slander as well - things like xx person is a sharker. Harassing other users without proof is called SLANDER. This does not mean that we want to restrict freedom of speech. If genuine issues with communities or community members need to be brought to the attention of others, I encourage you to post them. However, you MUST back up your statements with evidence supporting your claims.” 2) aj, what do you hope to gain from making this post? Well, I hope to shed some more light on my perspective of the whole situation that’s been going on between myself and Erik. It’s been going on for a very long time (around 8 months or so I imagine) and it’s realistically never going to get resolved completely for various reasons that I’ll go into later. Since my presence is rather “lacking” in some certain discords, I rarely get to talk about how my perspective was and it’s really just been “the Erik show” since February. Very recently, it’s come to my attention that various remarks are being made at my expense simply to either bait me into a response or they are made behind closed doors simply to sneer at my opinions and also to get a couple cheap laughs. I’d rather be dmed if someone felt uncomfortable or irritated at my actions/opinions. I’ve already sent out a couple dms, shoutout to the guys that responded, I’m glad it wasn’t a personal matter and that we more or less sorted it out. 3) aj, just get on with it already. Alrighty then. I would like to take some of your time to express my experiences with Erik, who I’m sure plenty of you know of. This has been festering for about 7/8 months now and I’ve finally realised that I’m the only one that’s been “losing” anything throughout this ordeal. Figured it was worth the time to type out a length exposé of what I’ve been going through. I’ll preface with this. I’m no saint; I’m not acting self-righteous when I make this callout; I’m a human at the end of the day. This entire experience is told from my perspective, even if I try to be as impartial as possible, it’s pretty much impossible for me to stay completely emotionless when recounting everything so please bear with me. I’ve confided in few close community members with how this has affected me, my reputation and standing within the TF2 trading community as well as some friendships. Chapter 1: TTA I came back to trading TF2 at the end of July 2020, this was Summer break for me and I had the chance to essentially work during the day at an office job and reconnect with old faces from within the community and get involved with pricing events and suggestions again. With this, I joined a discord server that was completely new since I cashed out back in 2018/19. TF2 Trading Alerts (as it was known then, often shortened to TTA). This was and is Erik’s discord server where lots of old and new faces resided within and was a cheerful, active and bubbling community. It was great, I made a fair few new friends and was available to help out newer traders as well as from time to time, give “alerts” to members of the discord. These alerts entailed items that you would quickbuy off backpack.tf and relist for profit on marketplace. A pretty simple way of trading and fairly consistent profit if you got into a groove. I myself profited in this fashion back in 2018 and it worked stupendously well (up until my PayPal got locked for breaking the limit for receiving but I digress). At face value, this is great, it’s a community that helps each other out and really wants to give newer traders a chance at profiting and getting into their own niche and space on marketplace. Of course, Marketplace announced their seller program closure in August so that quickly disabled new faces but for the most part, TTA strived to help each other out. However, I wouldn’t be able to compliment the efforts of TTA without highlighting a pretty damning flaw. Within a few weeks of joining the discord, I already realised how unbelievably toxic the discord would get if someone “sniped” an item before anyone else on the “newly listed” page of marketplace. This is where most of the better deals were since people just looking to cashout would yolo any price and this could often be under backpack.tf buyers, netting huge gains. On various different occasions, I would see many people scream in chat like a man possessed when they missed a snipe and often times, react very aggressively. This happened to me a few times to the point that I made a clear point that the server was unbelievably toxic towards those who managed to get the snipes and left the server to gain some distance. With all of this, Erik did nothing. His server to moderate and clean yet nothing happened because this toxic atmosphere was apparently “fine”. I can recall distinctly one time when, and I apologise for name dropping them, the user “fenfen” (currently known as y i p y a p フェネック) “sniped” a lot of high tier items that Mistail was cashing out. These include and are not limited to these items: Bonzo Dread Riding - https://marketplace.tf/items/tf2/1095;5;u81 - $462 Stare From Beyond Das Hazmattenhatten - https://marketplace.tf/items/tf2/30095;5;u83 - $407 Haunted Phantasm Jr Blast Defense - https://marketplace.tf/items/tf2/30863;5;u86 - $166 And so on, anyone that is interested, here’s the compare link: https://backpack.tf/profiles/76561197994917687#!/compare/1604188800/1604880000 The way marketplace newly listed worked, was that from when a user listed an item to when it came up on newly listed, there’s a sort of 5 minute refresh rate cycle. But, if you have the marketplace link to the item, and spam refresh that, it would instantly pop up as soon as the seller listed and you would be able to buy it. However, these would still pop up on the “newly listed” page later despite them already being bought. Obviously, people would react as toxic as they did previously, but they would be even more toxic since these are pretty high tier items with much larger margins. Erik did nothing to change any of the terrible words the chat was actively spewing towards fenfen. It was not until chat had finally cooled down and a couple hours later that fenfen and a friend joined to essentially read through all of the shit that was slated against him. This was just a horrible chat to even read yet Erik did nothing. To me, this was rather ironic since as of February 8th, I noticed that I had been banned from TTA for a variety of reasons, one of them being calling people out (it was pretty much always Erik, I don’t distinctly recall calling many others out within TTA, pretty sure I’ve made it very clear I have an issue with Erik). Given how lax Erik was with the toxicity surrounding “snipes” and the hostile attitude towards those that “sniped” when everyone was active, I just found it very ironic. Chapter 2: Marketplace whitelist Since the folks in TTA depended a lot on marketplace for profits, it was in everyone’s best interest to keep up to date about the whitelist news and about who would make the cut and if there were any ways of making it onto the whitelist. This sparked off many discussions and ultimately when people successfully made it onto the whitelist by simply opening a ticket at the time (December 2020) and stating various reasons as to why they should be made a seller, I implored many of those active in TTA to “apply” through a ticket. It didn’t hurt to try right? It worked for other people so may as well give it a shot, you don’t lose anything in trying. I was essentially ridiculed by Erik and various other whitelisted folks in TTA for even suggesting this. It was disgusting behaviour for those who didn’t know a thing about the process to immediately start gatekeeping the opportunity they had been presented with. Sure, I was told a lot of the time to “drop it” (this is one of Erik’s pet phrases, you’ll see it a lot) but after Dec 15th, I was increasingly worried with how negatively the whitelist was impacting the economy. From craft hats being listed for $1, the immediate PayPal key price change as well as unusual highballing. (This is boldened because I take the biggest issue with this, as do many others) I repeated these worries a lot, on occasion, Erik would even go as far as to gloat about a stupid sale that only happened because of the whitelist. Example here: Conscientious objector for $2 – https://imgur.com/a/FEOCFiY [Red name is Erik for reference] Erik posted the screenshot of the sale. lol’d and when he was called out for doing it by various active members of TTA, told everyone to move the conversation on because deflection is a key part to winning any argument. (I’ll try to not be overwhelmingly cynical with my remarks throughout this post) Again, pretty damning behaviour for a community admin, knowing full well that a 4 ref item has absolutely 0 reasons to sell for $2. You’ll notice that he highlighted it wasn’t a bad thing because “it’s not like I’m gonna spend the ret of my days flipping $2 items on mp kekw”. A one off does not discount the impact of the action at all. To this day, Erik continues to highball items on the whitelist for more than personal gain, breaking the conditions that Marketplace has set out. See here: https://prnt.sc/xm73lz - “All items must be priced accordingly to their market value. Repeated highballing may get your account kicked out from our program. For any questions, please submit a support ticket regarding this. This has been added to our requirement list." https://prnt.sc/156v7h9 - conditions for applying as a new seller now at - https://marketplace.tf/sell/apply My opinion on the Marketplace whitelist I think that I will take the time here to officially consolidate my opinion on the Marketplace shutdown and the whitelist. Somehow this is necessary because what I keep seeing everywhere is: “hurr durr, aj think whitelist is bad!! Whitelist abusers!! AJ hates everyone that is a whitelisted seller and it’s all because he applied back in December and got denied!!11!!!!!” That is just not true, I’ve asserted from the get-go that I disagreed with how people were added to the whitelist post Dec 15th but more on that later. I never “applied” for the whitelist because I flat out disagreed with how the whitelisting process was done back then. Here’s the discord “argument”/conversation with Chicken: https://discord.com/channels/390911223081861121/403655723319558184/790353429615738881 - Start from here and just read until you get bored. (Imgur link for those not in the mp discord - https://imgur.com/a/j2pcud7) (I’ll also state that I’m rather sorry that this was a lot of peoples first impression of me, that’s not how I typically am but since this was a topic I was and still am, very passionate about, perhaps some people may forgive me for being emotional. I gained a lot of new knowledge regarding the whitelisting situation and frankly, felt rather insulted by how I was treated by the regulars as well as support staff members during that conversation but heyho, onwards with this community callout though this is very important context.) I think that the whitelist, for the most part, was a good idea, the reasons given by Geel and the staff team are more than reasonable and perfectly crystal. I wouldn’t want scammers being able to cash out funds either, I’ve reported a seller for being a scammer in the past and managed to get their shop taken down, albeit, they had already cashed all the scammed items out by the time staff got to banning them but still, it’s the thought that counts. What I do not think was done well was how the “whitelisting process” post Dec-15th was. Marketplace gave a 4 month “grace period” and within that grace period, did not seem to offer much information to the public at all regarding who would end up on a whitelist and who would not. As more stuff was slowly leaked on Discord (of all media platforms, of course one would trust Discord first /s), and various users such as: https://marketplace.tf/shop/76561198804015732 - Payback https://marketplace.tf/shop/76561198105071091 - Smarties and a couple more were also whitelisted for being able to provide keys/ref/tods after December 15th. And then this much information about opening tickets (https://imgur.com/a/qrDqnVr and https://prnt.sc/156tbkr) to “apply” only made its rounds on Discord around Dec 20th or so I think. People were being added to the whitelist and this was totally biased to those on discord, anyone who was not just didn’t even get a chance to present themselves as an option. But that’s how my opinion on the whitelist was in December, I was and I still am very worried about the negative impacts this would have on the economy. And as a somewhat avid and active suggester for backpack.tf. I’m more exposed to these “highball” sales on marketplace than the average trader so to speak since I make those suggestions. If my opinion on the whitelist wasn’t clear enough, then feel free to ask questions in my dms or below, I don’t mind answering any queries you still might have after this. Back on topic: 29th January 2021, I submit a report for Erik on Marketplace regarding his repeated highballing. Marketplace had previously kicked a whitelisted seller named “Flappy” off the program, iirc, they sold and listed a lot of craft hats for $1 and just general egregious prices. This was a final pitch move by me since I had already previously confronted Erik about his prices in either TTA or DMs prior to making this ticket. Here’s an imgur album of said ticket: https://imgur.com/a/kpeZQEJ (as of June 12th 2021) Here is also a google doc to make opening links a lot easier: Within the preface of the ticket, I express some changes in maths and show that I don’t expect prices post whitelist to stay the same. (This was in January, by now, keys have settled back to a more reasonable cash price and prices on whitelist should now be around classifieds*2) Given that keys rose by almost 15% PayPal cash price wise, it’d have been extremely stupid to say prices had to remain the same. I listed off almost 20 items that I had analysed, with backpack.tf price suggestions (which accurately depict an items “market value” for the past 3 months) as well as screenshots of Erik’s listings incase they were changed later that day. He ended up changing the price of the Neutron Star Bitey and Circling Heart Modest later that day, no doubt because of my price suggestions but I can’t give myself too much credit there. I received a pretty “fast” reply about a week later regarding the examples I had collected. Marketplace support dictated that I “resolve this issue with the seller via steam or discord”. I was pretty puzzled by the statement that Marketplace “cannot accurately keep track of current market price for each unusuals item in the game”. One look at the sellers on backpack.tf would give you a good indication of market price for any unusual under 200 keys or so. The one thing I hated about some of the examples I had collected was instances where Erik would sell a hat for an already high price, e.g Circling TF Logo Tundra Top for $59.99, around 30 keys after fees, and then he would raise the item by $10. I repeated this many times within the ticket but if a hat more than comfortably sold at a higher price than market, why raise it any further? Marketplace literally issued a warning about repeated highballing - https://prnt.sc/xm73lz There are also other examples I dislike, like the Sparkling Lights Winter Wrap Up where Erik would pay full pure or even at times, over market price to relist for way higher than market price on Marketplace. This, to me, is totally unacceptable and creating a fictional profit margin for personal gain. That is most definitely not “fair” or “market price”. It quite literally, forces one to highball since you’ve just paid full pure for an item. When confronted with various items in either public or discord dms, Erik would claim he was “exploring their potential”. This is a terrible practice because once that sale is on the graph, it just gives him more fuel to say “well it sold for that amount so haha, new market price 20 keys above classifieds sellers”. The friction between myself and Erik increased to a point where I ended up blocking Erik on my bots before making this report. Erik was quick to ping me in the TTA server and demand answers from me which I was quick to point out, was flat out wrong since TTA was very much and still is, a hive-mind cult-like following around Erik that continues to feed his huge ego. There have been countless times where I would argue with Erik over various topics in TTA (I’ll elaborate on some of these later) and some random member would join in, automatically back up Erik and just flat out refuse to listen to any points I had to make. Here are a couple screenshots from our dms: https://imgur.com/a/lqMJyYJ Erik resorted to using “ad hominem” (apologies for using a fancy latinism, this is the oxford dictionary definition – “(of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining.”) I only really know ad hominem because it used to be in here - https://backpack.tf/rules Essentially, Erik tried attacking me for “giving multiple deals a day to other whitelisted people” and challenging my morals. Erik is talking about this - https://prnt.sc/14s2tkr, good thing I kept a tight record of items I sent to friends that were whitelisted at the time. These were items that were already discounted from “market price”, items that popped up on the deals page whenever I flicked through and was lazy to buy them for myself since the profit would not be as good as if they were sold on Marketplace instead. Midway argument, Erik sends Valpip to buy an item off me since Erik was now blocked on bots. He dismisses it as “nothing personal” and that “people buy items for him off bots all the time”. This guy would rather have 5 keys profit, than settle an argument. I’ll let that sink in for a while. There are various reasons why I blocked Erik and a few of his “cronies” from using my bot, one key point was I didn’t support his highballing, another key point was that I knew that if I still sold to him and brought up that he highballed these items, he would use this very fact in any argument to say I cannot complain and that I shouldn’t sell to him if I disagree with his prices on marketplace. We saw this happen a couple days ago - https://imgur.com/a/nq0kNHu Gamey isn’t allowed to have a say on this matter because he has sold to people that were whitelisted previously, ergo, his opinion is now completely moot and invalid. If that does not scream unfair and manipulative to you, you may want to get your eyes checked. This is beyond comical at this point. Gamey is also now blocked by Erik and banned from all servers Erik owns since Gamey mentioned that Erik had highball prices in his DMs and various other public discords to get a response. Erik’s response was that gamey allegedly “threatened” Erik and therefore, Erik does not have to listen to anything gamey has to say and as he says. Chapter 3: Marketplace highballing continued and response from Erik I continued to collect evidence for Erik’s repetitive highballing. Here are just a couple examples I’ve collected along the way: Shimmering Lights Taunt: The Killer Solo https://backpack.tf/stats/Unusual/Taunt%3A The Killer Solo/Tradable/Craftable/3056 - 3 month unsold at 18 keys https://marketplace.tf/items/tf2/30609;5;u3056 - $49.99, ~25+ keys after tax with current key prices https://gladiator.tf/listings/60aa95a87cb4e7310efb3dda - sellers were at 18 keys at the time of the earlier $49.99 sale $39.99 would be more than fine here Aromatica Fire Fighter https://backpack.tf/stats/Unusual/Fire Fighter/Tradable/Craftable/148 - sellers at 60 keys and less https://marketplace.tf/items/tf2/31108;5;u148 - $179.99 https://gladiator.tf/listings/605d096edea8fa67cf5fcc07 - sellers were at 54 keys at the March 23rd sale for $179.99, which is about 90 keys compared to 54 https://gladiator.tf/listings/607c4e29360871eb0ee10a6b - sellers were also at 54 keys and lower at the time April 18th sale for $179.99 This is a huge issue with Erik's listings, he highballs them, then other sellers just match Here's the history for the March 23rd sale: https://backpack.tf/item/9209387437 https://backpack.tf/profiles/76561198119634686#!/compare/1609113600/1609200000 Erik paid 39 keys for this, to resell for $179.99 Let that sink in, he purchased at market price, and then marked it up egregiously high, and marketplace did nothing about this. I'm bringing this up because very often, I see claims from Erik that he bought a lot of these items at their "hype prices" and that's why he has these marked up prices, since he "cannot take a loss because of undercutters and scripters". Here’s a couple screenshots of him saying that: https://gyazo.com/c6a80cc61762431d79d10d235581c0e9 https://imgur.com/a/ZydyZ9D https://gyazo.com/6e175713b103c8e2831e49c90eab354d I want to highlight here that I am a competent suggester and can check item histories to see what Erik has paid, gladiator snapshots also help out a ton so it's complete bollocks that Erik claims he can mark up his prices because he bought in at hype or something, those cases are very very rare, more often, it is cases like the Fire Fighter above. Divine Desire Elf Care Provider https://backpack.tf/stats/Unusual/Elf%20Care%20Provider/Tradable/Craftable/167 - market is clearly less than 20 keys And Erik was listing these up at $100, I don’t even need to grab gladiator snapshots because it’s pretty clear what a 49-in-existence unusual single class merc grade hat is worth. $100 >> 20 keys by a pretty sizeable amount if my maths checks out, if someone could be a dear and double check that for me, I’d be very appreciative! Hopefully, that’s enough examples to keep you guys from automatically dismissing my evidence, I implore you to read through most of the ticket, I’ve got a couple more pieces of evidence in a point I’ll make later. So, what was Erik’s response to Marketplace’s response in the ticket? Well, rather coincidentally, I took a break off various discord servers between Jan 29th and about Feb 8th to focus a little bit on school as well as write up the marketplace report. By the time I tried to rejoin the TTA server, I discovered that I had been banned from the discord, despite not being present for the last couple days at all. I find this all far to coincidental with the Marketplace staff response since they note that Erik was verbally warned about his item pricing. Though he vehemently denies it, the facts are pretty clear. Various discord mods from TTA were puzzled over why I was banned and I haven’t actually heard what they discussed regarding my ban except from Erik. I was then subsequently banned from Erik’s Suggestion Squad Discord, I can only assume he wanted to basically cut me off completely. This was pretty saddening for me since I have only good memories within the Suggestion Squad Discord. I’ll go on a small tangent since the Suggestion Squad Discord meant a lot to me personally: Suggestion Challenge 7 https://backpack.tf/suggestion/5b829dde44325a714756686a https://backpack.tf/suggestion/5b82c17244325a582d004aee Suggestion Challenge 9 https://backpack.tf/suggestion/5ba80381cf6c750a5c570b4c https://backpack.tf/suggestion/5ba944f544325a50b2656dd0 - the ever rare Randy accepted suggestions Suggestion Challenge 13 https://backpack.tf/suggestion/5bfde41944325a0f9654f647 https://backpack.tf/suggestion/5bfde62b44325a1094434af8 Suggestion Challenge 20 I really enjoyed leading my team during that event. I learned a lot and gained a totally new experience by having to check over all of my teams submissions and double checking to make sure sales were correct or even doing the occasional mini for efficiency sake. Slight plug: Please do join this new initiative, the Unusual Suggestion Reward Program discord where you are rewarded for making good and high quality suggestions! - https://discord.gg/EphDURbAXT Chapter 4: Baiting by Erik (and various other community members) Nothing really changed too much between February and now, I took a bit of a break to study during April/May and I’ve been back for ~3 weeks or so. However, this event happened the other day and I certainly feel the need to discuss it. https://prnt.sc/156o49h I make the remark that keys are now $1.95. Bear in mind I don’t need to scroll down to see who is listing at this price, I didn’t have a clue, I just saw when making a price suggestion that keys were now at $1.95 since it takes a bit of time to update MP prices via a script I use to items on backpack.tf Fish immediately goes on the defensive, already segregating whitelist from non-whitelist and with a terrible take, claims that “15 of erik’s 1500 unusuals are price ~$15 above market value”. I’ll dissect this argument very quickly. For starters, $15 is a very arbitrary value. For a $15 dollar unusual, that’s a 100% mark up. For a $30 unusual, that’s a 50% mark up from market price and so on and so forth. Only claiming that 15 of Erik’s many unusuals are highballed is woefully ignorant, please feel free to keep my google doc open, I’m positive there’s about 80+ examples within just that ticket. https://prnt.sc/156ol8o, https://prnt.sc/156onba Fish continues on the defensive and I realise I’m just getting baited by 2 community admins. I decide to ping community mods regarding this situation here - https://prnt.sc/156oo1z Ultimately, I sort it out with community mods, though I haven’t yet received an apology from either party involved with baiting me, I’m not going to bother pursuing one. Based off Fish’s comment, I spent the next hour or so gathering data by just going into Erik’s Marketplace shop and sorting by “date added” and I ended up with this - https://docs.google.com/document/d/1n57Uz4xT9Y7mUzGQ3rwWUeyacst-zaVCl5hzTHtWkqs/edit?usp=sharing Here is a rough text file that I ended up sending off to fish in dms, there’s about 40 examples within that, took me about an hour+ to put together and send it off. Here are a few highlights: https://marketplace.tf/items/tf2/31181;5;u170 59.99 https://backpack.tf/stats/Unusual/Killing Tree/Tradable/Craftable/170 - sellers at less than 14 k lol https://marketplace.tf/items/tf2/31176;5;u168 99.99 https://backpack.tf/stats/Unusual/Elf Care Provider/Tradable/Craftable/168 - sellers less than 20 keys also lol https://marketplace.tf/items/tf2/984;5;u62 159.99 https://backpack.tf/stats/Unusual/Tough Stuff Muffs/Tradable/Craftable/62 - sellers less than 60 keys also also lol https://marketplace.tf/items/tf2/523;5;u17 399.99 https://backpack.tf/stats/Unusual/Company Man/Tradable/Craftable/17 - 2 month unsold at 155 keys also also also lol https://marketplace.tf/items/tf2/31171;5;u30 139.99, this has since been changed down to 119.99 but Offline’s at a much better price regardless https://backpack.tf/stats/Unusual/Reindoonibeanie/Tradable/Craftable/30 - 2 sellers at less than 50 keys also also also also lol I just find it borderline crazy that anyone would defend this behaviour. Really take a look at yourself, and then take a look at these prices and then tell me, “yeah those prices are fair”, “no for sure, aj is definitely wrong here, listing for 100% mark up is more than common practice on mp” (for the astute ones in the crowd, this is indeed a jab at the “old whitelist from around Dec 15th” that are currently bullying, threatening and harassing the newer whitelisted peeps on marketplace about their prices. I do sincerely apologise that you cannot list craft hats for 40c such as here - https://imgur.com/a/r6MogIJ) I’ll take just a little time here to address that. I have personally reached out to about half a dozen people from the Marketplace discord to ask why they might find me irritating and the majority of responses have been a lot more positive than I was prepared for. Most disliked me constantly going on about my unsolved ticket in #site-discussion which is perfectly understandable. Most have also expressed they don't have anything personal against me. More often than not, I feel like most are parroting what others have said about me. Since I hate witchhunting, I never disclosed Erik’s name at all when discussing this ticket in public, if I had an issue with your pricing, I would’ve dmed you about it…like I did with Erik. So I am extremely grateful to those that did take their time to reply to me, I’m very very appreciative of those that did. However, if you still feel the urge to shit talk me behind closed doors then make a private discord instead of slating me in the official Marketplace discord? If you cannot defend your statements of me after being confronted by me, then don't make them in the first place? Feels like common sense, I don't know. I’m surprised and shocked that discord staff did nothing to stop that behaviour, those who cannot separate emotion from business, I find it very hard to respect any decisions made by them. Concluding thoughts: Erik is a bully; he pressures people on the whitelist by viciously undercutting when he doesn’t get his way. He blocks and bans people who disagree with him and then manipulates the situation afterwards. https://imgur.com/a/5TdD17A - here is Erik after banning gamey from TTA This is one of the rare instances that I have to agree with Erik, TTA staff are a “bunch of softies”, in fact, I’m friends with pretty much all of them. The one that isn’t a so called “softie” is you Erik, threatening people with bans because they disagree with your prices and argue with you Erik is hypocritical. This happened a few times in TTA, but a member of TTA, knightfury, was banned for trading with scammers via his bot for the Bonzo Drill. https://imgur.com/a/PRxMG42 - here’s a few screenshots from the time that I took. Erik claims to not know that unusuals purchased off cs.deals are “scammer dumps”. A community admin, and a price mod, claims to not be able to use premium search to double check the item they are purchasing. I find this extremely convenient. You need only open a few histories to know that these items all come from the same scammer alt on cs.deals. Any unusual suggester knows this and I would more than expect a price mod to know this very fact. I’m not the only guy who has these opinions about Erik. Far from it. https://imgur.com/a/DR1PAY2 - Conversation back in January https://imgur.com/a/sPnvESI - another conversation with a different user in January too https://imgur.com/a/rvbMP3k - another conversation with another user back in March I’ve blacked out profile pictures and names for the sake of their safety since I know first hand how vindictive Erik can get, and it isn’t anything I wish on any other person. That’s about all I have to say. I hope it’s taken seriously unlike my marketplace ticket. Support lied to me and kept me hanging for 4 months so I can’t say I’m terrifically happy with them, but yet again I digress. I don't particularly know how private the marketplace ticket was supposed to be. I suppose me screenshotting it all and posting it above, well, that could be breaking a few "hidden rules" from here and there. I was initially going to make a google docs with the ticket but I think the examples i gathered as a counter argument to being baited are a good insight to how much "research" I had to do to find a fair market price. aj out, comments appreciated, thanks for reading, I know it's a long read Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Payback Posted June 12, 2021 Share Posted June 12, 2021 7 minutes ago, ajdislikesyournamingpolicy said: On various different occasions, I would see many people scream in chat like a man possessed when they missed a snipe and often times, react very aggressively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rndmchrs Posted June 12, 2021 Share Posted June 12, 2021 The facts that - 1. they don't ban ofp who lists $10 spells at like 400 shekles, and that 2. I got banned off marketplace after complaining about Alec listing craft (yes, CRAFT) hats at 50 cents - are just extremely funny to me https://imgur.com/a/k0txk1z support ticket been ignored for almost 3 months now btw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincentius Posted June 12, 2021 Share Posted June 12, 2021 Might aswell add something to this, I got whitelisted during the first cycle of people, during the few days I was on, I listed objectors at their original prices on mp (or close to the prices before the whitelist) and other items that were regularly sold in high volumes due to being limited use items (bp expanders, decal tools etc). I brought down the absurd prices that they were listed at too reasonable if not still slightly above markets before the whitelist (from 2$ -> 20 cents in some cases). I listed keys and refined like what was required from the mods at the time aswell, I later decided to list some of my more liquid unusuals on mp that I owned multiple of on mp, conveniently Erik also owned the majority of these hats aswell, I did not undercut nor overcut but matched his prices since of the new rules, not even 3 days later I get banned from mp for "Leading/misleading other users to apply/gain access to our whitelist, using hostile language and harassing staff member(s) of the backpack.tf community (an affiliate)" https://gyazo.com/90e2836d57f91d57c1475a62d764795c . Really odd how I never did any of the following due to not being in the bp discord for over a year leading into this so im still unsure of the "using hostile language and harassing staff member(s) of the backpack.tf community". Only thing that would really make sense is that Erik dug up old conversations I had with his from years prior and did not appreciate me being whitelisted and got me banned. And for the "Leading/misleading others", I basically told people who were the major sellers at the time to try and apply if they wanted too, guess this counts as "leading"? Anyways, times have changed and I still consistently see items being overpriced on mp even without the ability to log into the site to see sales, crazy to see how a 20 key hat can get listed for 100$ without any issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajdislikesyournamingpolicy Posted June 12, 2021 Author Share Posted June 12, 2021 4 minutes ago, Vincentius said: Anyways, times have changed and I still consistently see items being overpriced on mp even without the ability to log into the site to see sales, crazy to see how a 20 key hat can get listed for 100$ without any issue. I appreciate that you've taken the time to share this. I'd like replies to stay as on topic as possible so mods don't lock this for going off topic since I'd like more discussion to take place before that may or may not happen. Thanks again for the response Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcextraTTV Posted June 12, 2021 Share Posted June 12, 2021 I read the whole thing and I couldn't agree more, this is incredibly toxic to the economy. Its reasons like this why I completely avoid hats with certain people on their recent history. The manipulations and intentional gouging of players who are just looking to complete a set is unacceptable. How would a newish player know the hat they're offered for 600 was sold for 200 last week? they wont ... its a toxic profit traders paradise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beaser Posted June 12, 2021 Share Posted June 12, 2021 Too my understanding, simply a TL:DR, users can take advantage of the limited usage of whitelist in order to highball and use it in order to gain cash profits with little effort, even considering that marketplace.tf bans a few sellers for "highballing" even though these few sellers were matching with other sellers that are still not banned. Now I think this is called favoritism, where I'll quote "the practice of giving unfair preferential treatment to one person or group at the expense of another." which sounds scummy, however quoted from https://www.investopedia.com "Instead of success being determined by a free market and the rule of law, the success of a business is dependent on the favoritism that is shown to it by the government in the form of tax breaks, government grants, and other incentives." (fact checks appreciated). Now for a business to strive, favoritism needs to be present, however it contains it's own limitations, and excluding a party in order to favor another party is the really scummy side of favoritism. I believe that their blogpost that they made back in August of last year is a whole load of bullshit right at the community's face. I feel like the excuses posted on there is just another way to enforce favoritism to certain people that can take advantage of the limited marketing space there is. That is what their current program failed to do, and that is to stop the manipulation of prices. Marketplace.tf was a great site for everyone that did not want to do direct cash trades and would take the taxes included for the site to sell there. Now to clear things out I do not want to quarrel with the people who are using marketplace.tf right now nor do I want to support them, I am just stating the facts and some opinions on how dishonorable the seller program currently is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honeybadger Posted June 12, 2021 Share Posted June 12, 2021 Who would've known, when anything with money is involved people get like this. Yeah, it's all despicable. I've not used marketplace since it was set to whitelist only, seen it transform into profit ape heaven. It's unfortunate that this goes on for so long being unchecked but then no one is responsible enough at the top to put an end to things like this, so it keeps happening. As much as I like this post I doubt anything will happen, it's basically a known issue at this point, and I doubt certain individuals want their cash to stop coming in so I half expect this post to be buried somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slam Posted June 13, 2021 Share Posted June 13, 2021 Me when I see another lengthy drama thread on here: But really, kinda hard to introduce better competition so that marketplace.tf isn't so easy to abuse by the whitelisted people when any other TF2 cash trading website that pops up is immediately claimed to be "fishy and awful and evil and ran by scammers" by people adamantly loyal to backpack.tf/marketplace.tf. I get that a certain other site does have fishy behavior and that it's difficult to build up a trustworthy cash website, but something's gotta be done so that we aren't in a position where the only "trustworthy" site is being used by a select few to squeeze money out of overpriced items from buyers that don't know better. I see it mostly on unusual taunts, where they're listed 5-10+ keys above what they're actually worth and yet they still sell because there's no way for anyone to lower those prices to be in-line with the items true value anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beaser Posted June 13, 2021 Share Posted June 13, 2021 9 minutes ago, mikey boi said: when any other TF2 cash trading website that pops up is immediately claimed to be "fishy and awful and evil and ran by scammers" I mean in the case of scammco.store, they are, along with other fishy acts current and previous admins have done which they cannot escape with and should be held accountable for. But yes I do agree that it is difficult to create a cash trading site that is trusted and ran by community members. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators ᴾᴾᴹ Shuffle Spy Posted June 13, 2021 Administrators Share Posted June 13, 2021 If I may comment on some of the points that I actually can relate to, I'll try to remain impartial in my assessment. I'm not in TTA, so I can't touch on that point. 3 hours ago, ajdislikesyournamingpolicy said: Chapter 2: Marketplace whitelist Since the folks in TTA depended a lot on marketplace for profits, it was in everyone’s best interest to keep up to date about the whitelist news and about who would make the cut and if there were any ways of making it onto the whitelist. This sparked off many discussions and ultimately when people successfully made it onto the whitelist by simply opening a ticket at the time (December 2020) and stating various reasons as to why they should be made a seller, I implored many of those active in TTA to “apply” through a ticket. It didn’t hurt to try right? It worked for other people so may as well give it a shot, you don’t lose anything in trying. I was essentially ridiculed by Erik and various other whitelisted folks in TTA for even suggesting this. It was disgusting behaviour for those who didn’t know a thing about the process to immediately start gatekeeping the opportunity they had been presented with. Sure, I was told a lot of the time to “drop it” (this is one of Erik’s pet phrases, you’ll see it a lot) but after Dec 15th, I was increasingly worried with how negatively the whitelist was impacting the economy. From craft hats being listed for $1, the immediate PayPal key price change as well as unusual highballing. (This is boldened because I take the biggest issue with this, as do many others) I repeated these worries a lot, on occasion, Erik would even go as far as to gloat about a stupid sale that only happened because of the whitelist. Example here: Conscientious objector for $2 – https://imgur.com/a/FEOCFiY [Red name is Erik for reference] Erik posted the screenshot of the sale. lol’d and when he was called out for doing it by various active members of TTA, told everyone to move the conversation on because deflection is a key part to winning any argument. (I’ll try to not be overwhelmingly cynical with my remarks throughout this post) Again, pretty damning behaviour for a community admin, knowing full well that a 4 ref item has absolutely 0 reasons to sell for $2. You’ll notice that he highlighted it wasn’t a bad thing because “it’s not like I’m gonna spend the ret of my days flipping $2 items on mp kekw”. A one off does not discount the impact of the action at all. To this day, Erik continues to highball items on the whitelist for more than personal gain, breaking the conditions that Marketplace has set out. See here: https://prnt.sc/xm73lz - “All items must be priced accordingly to their market value. Repeated highballing may get your account kicked out from our program. For any questions, please submit a support ticket regarding this. This has been added to our requirement list." https://prnt.sc/156v7h9 - conditions for applying as a new seller now at - https://marketplace.tf/sell/apply If items sell for $1, does that not signify its market price? The market price on Marketplace may be different from the price on Backpack, but that still can be considered the item's market price Nobody is required to pay the prices items are listed at. There are other cash sites that items can be listed on. If there are concerns about the legitimacy and safety of those other sites, then that would yield a security premium that buyers are willing to pay for items listed on Marketplace. Similar premiums can arise for other reasons (ease of use, reputation, etc.) To utilize Economics jargon, TF2 items are luxury goods, not essential goods. Even if someone were to possess a monopoly in an item's market, nobody is required to pay that price, and the economy wouldn't be ruined as a result Supply and demand would also assist in dictating an item's market price - with the closure of the seller program to most users, the supply drastically decreased, hence the market price should, in theory, increase, even if demand remains fixed From https://imgur.com/a/FEOCFiY I'm not entirely sure where the gloating is. As I see it, Erik's highlighting the absurdity of an item selling for a price far above what it used to, but I detailed above the logic that led, at least in part, to the sales even occurring This is the only point I'll raise regarding your opinion of the whitelist access. As Chicken had mentioned, Marketplace isn't obligated to provide a rationale for every decision they make, whether that be whitelist access or a site ban. Would it be nice to know for clarity? Sure, it's just not a requirement on their part. 3 hours ago, ajdislikesyournamingpolicy said: Back on topic: Within the preface of the ticket, I express some changes in maths and show that I don’t expect prices post whitelist to stay the same. (This was in January, by now, keys have settled back to a more reasonable cash price and prices on whitelist should now be around classifieds*2) Given that keys rose by almost 15% PayPal cash price wise, it’d have been extremely stupid to say prices had to remain the same. I listed off almost 20 items that I had analysed, with backpack.tf price suggestions (which accurately depict an items “market value” for the past 3 months) as well as screenshots of Erik’s listings incase they were changed later that day. He ended up changing the price of the Neutron Star Bitey and Circling Heart Modest later that day, no doubt because of my price suggestions but I can’t give myself too much credit there. I received a pretty “fast” reply about a week later regarding the examples I had collected. Marketplace support dictated that I “resolve this issue with the seller via steam or discord”. I was pretty puzzled by the statement that Marketplace “cannot accurately keep track of current market price for each unusuals item in the game”. One look at the sellers on backpack.tf would give you a good indication of market price for any unusual under 200 keys or so. The one thing I hated about some of the examples I had collected was instances where Erik would sell a hat for an already high price, e.g Circling TF Logo Tundra Top for $59.99, around 30 keys after fees, and then he would raise the item by $10. I repeated this many times within the ticket but if a hat more than comfortably sold at a higher price than market, why raise it any further? Marketplace literally issued a warning about repeated highballing - https://prnt.sc/xm73lz There are also other examples I dislike, like the Sparkling Lights Winter Wrap Up where Erik would pay full pure or even at times, over market price to relist for way higher than market price on Marketplace. This, to me, is totally unacceptable and creating a fictional profit margin for personal gain. That is most definitely not “fair” or “market price”. It quite literally, forces one to highball since you’ve just paid full pure for an item. When confronted with various items in either public or discord dms, Erik would claim he was “exploring their potential”. This is a terrible practice because once that sale is on the graph, it just gives him more fuel to say “well it sold for that amount so haha, new market price 20 keys above classifieds sellers”. The friction between myself and Erik increased to a point where I ended up blocking Erik on my bots before making this report. Erik was quick to ping me in the TTA server and demand answers from me which I was quick to point out, was flat out wrong since TTA was very much and still is, a hive-mind cult-like following around Erik that continues to feed his huge ego. There have been countless times where I would argue with Erik over various topics in TTA (I’ll elaborate on some of these later) and some random member would join in, automatically back up Erik and just flat out refuse to listen to any points I had to make. Here are a couple screenshots from our dms: https://imgur.com/a/lqMJyYJ Erik resorted to using “ad hominem” (apologies for using a fancy latinism, this is the oxford dictionary definition – “(of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining.”) I only really know ad hominem because it used to be in here - https://backpack.tf/rules Essentially, Erik tried attacking me for “giving multiple deals a day to other whitelisted people” and challenging my morals. Erik is talking about this - https://prnt.sc/14s2tkr, good thing I kept a tight record of items I sent to friends that were whitelisted at the time. These were items that were already discounted from “market price”, items that popped up on the deals page whenever I flicked through and was lazy to buy them for myself since the profit would not be as good as if they were sold on Marketplace instead. Midway argument, Erik sends Valpip to buy an item off me since Erik was now blocked on bots. He dismisses it as “nothing personal” and that “people buy items for him off bots all the time”. This guy would rather have 5 keys profit, than settle an argument. I’ll let that sink in for a while. There are various reasons why I blocked Erik and a few of his “cronies” from using my bot, one key point was I didn’t support his highballing, another key point was that I knew that if I still sold to him and brought up that he highballed these items, he would use this very fact in any argument to say I cannot complain and that I shouldn’t sell to him if I disagree with his prices on marketplace. We saw this happen a couple days ago - https://imgur.com/a/nq0kNHu Gamey isn’t allowed to have a say on this matter because he has sold to people that were whitelisted previously, ergo, his opinion is now completely moot and invalid. If that does not scream unfair and manipulative to you, you may want to get your eyes checked. This is beyond comical at this point. Gamey is also now blocked by Erik and banned from all servers Erik owns since Gamey mentioned that Erik had highball prices in his DMs and various other public discords to get a response. Erik’s response was that gamey allegedly “threatened” Erik and therefore, Erik does not have to listen to anything gamey has to say and as he says. I would expect prices to spike more than expected initially after the seller program closure due to the shock actually taking effect, which would explain why sales were above your projections at the time; afterwards, sellers likely saw that those prices could be maintained due to the fact that if the item sold at that price once, it could do so again "but if a hat more than comfortably sold at a higher price than market, why raise it any further?" - If an item could comfortably sell at buy order price, and that price was profitable for you, why would you raise your price above the buy order price? From an Economics standpoint, it could be that the initial sale price was still below the equilibrium price. The only way to find out is to list the item for higher, see if it sells, and if it doesn't, then drop it down again "Marketplace literally issued a warning about repeated highballing" - If the item is selling at a certain price, it's not really highballing to list another of the same item for slightly higher You're not completely absolved of the attacking language when in https://imgur.com/a/lqMJyYJ I see "Get off your high horse, your argument has sand for support" and "I don't really like you that much," as well as "you may want to get your eyes checked" from the end of this section of your post. The following chat messages happened after Gamey was banned from TTA, so I imagine Erik didn't ban/block you and Gamey solely because you voiced your grievances about Erik's Marketplace prices 3 hours ago, ajdislikesyournamingpolicy said: Chapter 3: Marketplace highballing continued and response from Erik I continued to collect evidence for Erik’s repetitive highballing. Here are just a couple examples I’ve collected along the way: Shimmering Lights Taunt: The Killer Solo https://backpack.tf/stats/Unusual/Taunt%3A The Killer Solo/Tradable/Craftable/3056 - 3 month unsold at 18 keys https://marketplace.tf/items/tf2/30609;5;u3056 - $49.99, ~25+ keys after tax with current key prices https://gladiator.tf/listings/60aa95a87cb4e7310efb3dda - sellers were at 18 keys at the time of the earlier $49.99 sale $39.99 would be more than fine here Aromatica Fire Fighter https://backpack.tf/stats/Unusual/Fire Fighter/Tradable/Craftable/148 - sellers at 60 keys and less https://marketplace.tf/items/tf2/31108;5;u148 - $179.99 https://gladiator.tf/listings/605d096edea8fa67cf5fcc07 - sellers were at 54 keys at the March 23rd sale for $179.99, which is about 90 keys compared to 54 https://gladiator.tf/listings/607c4e29360871eb0ee10a6b - sellers were also at 54 keys and lower at the time April 18th sale for $179.99 This is a huge issue with Erik's listings, he highballs them, then other sellers just match Here's the history for the March 23rd sale: https://backpack.tf/item/9209387437 https://backpack.tf/profiles/76561198119634686#!/compare/1609113600/1609200000 Erik paid 39 keys for this, to resell for $179.99 Let that sink in, he purchased at market price, and then marked it up egregiously high, and marketplace did nothing about this. I'm bringing this up because very often, I see claims from Erik that he bought a lot of these items at their "hype prices" and that's why he has these marked up prices, since he "cannot take a loss because of undercutters and scripters". Here’s a couple screenshots of him saying that: https://gyazo.com/c6a80cc61762431d79d10d235581c0e9 https://imgur.com/a/ZydyZ9D https://gyazo.com/6e175713b103c8e2831e49c90eab354d I want to highlight here that I am a competent suggester and can check item histories to see what Erik has paid, gladiator snapshots also help out a ton so it's complete bollocks that Erik claims he can mark up his prices because he bought in at hype or something, those cases are very very rare, more often, it is cases like the Fire Fighter above. Divine Desire Elf Care Provider https://backpack.tf/stats/Unusual/Elf%20Care%20Provider/Tradable/Craftable/167 - market is clearly less than 20 keys And Erik was listing these up at $100, I don’t even need to grab gladiator snapshots because it’s pretty clear what a 49-in-existence unusual single class merc grade hat is worth. $100 >> 20 keys by a pretty sizeable amount if my maths checks out, if someone could be a dear and double check that for me, I’d be very appreciative! Killer Solo - After tax, $49.99 is $44.99, which is closer to 22 Keys since Keys were around $2 at the time of the sale - https://manic.tf/keyprice/?at=2021-05-23; 22 is not egregiously far from 18 Keys, and the gap can be explained from the supply/demand, premiums, etc. I mentioned earlier Fire Fighter - Erik paid 39 Keys in December to list it for $179.99... after it already sold twice on Marketplace for $181 in September and $190 in November Elf Care Provider - The first sale at $100 (43 Keys at the time) was quite close to the price on Backpack at the time https://gladiator.tf/listings/60063edbf6df39101cf036bd; if it could sell once at that price, theoretically it could sell again at that price, and it did twice 3 hours ago, ajdislikesyournamingpolicy said: Chapter 4: Baiting by Erik (and various other community members) Nothing really changed too much between February and now, I took a bit of a break to study during April/May and I’ve been back for ~3 weeks or so. However, this event happened the other day and I certainly feel the need to discuss it. https://prnt.sc/156o49h I make the remark that keys are now $1.95. Bear in mind I don’t need to scroll down to see who is listing at this price, I didn’t have a clue, I just saw when making a price suggestion that keys were now at $1.95 since it takes a bit of time to update MP prices via a script I use to items on backpack.tf Fish immediately goes on the defensive, already segregating whitelist from non-whitelist and with a terrible take, claims that “15 of erik’s 1500 unusuals are price ~$15 above market value”. I’ll dissect this argument very quickly. For starters, $15 is a very arbitrary value. For a $15 dollar unusual, that’s a 100% mark up. For a $30 unusual, that’s a 50% mark up from market price and so on and so forth. Only claiming that 15 of Erik’s many unusuals are highballed is woefully ignorant, please feel free to keep my google doc open, I’m positive there’s about 80+ examples within just that ticket. https://prnt.sc/156ol8o, https://prnt.sc/156onba Fish continues on the defensive and I realise I’m just getting baited by 2 community admins. I decide to ping community mods regarding this situation here - https://prnt.sc/156oo1z Ultimately, I sort it out with community mods, though I haven’t yet received an apology from either party involved with baiting me, I’m not going to bother pursuing one. Based off Fish’s comment, I spent the next hour or so gathering data by just going into Erik’s Marketplace shop and sorting by “date added” and I ended up with this - https://docs.google.com/document/d/1n57Uz4xT9Y7mUzGQ3rwWUeyacst-zaVCl5hzTHtWkqs/edit?usp=sharing Here is a rough text file that I ended up sending off to fish in dms, there’s about 40 examples within that, took me about an hour+ to put together and send it off. Here are a few highlights: https://marketplace.tf/items/tf2/31181;5;u170 59.99 https://backpack.tf/stats/Unusual/Killing Tree/Tradable/Craftable/170 - sellers at less than 14 k lol https://marketplace.tf/items/tf2/31176;5;u168 99.99 https://backpack.tf/stats/Unusual/Elf Care Provider/Tradable/Craftable/168 - sellers less than 20 keys also lol https://marketplace.tf/items/tf2/984;5;u62 159.99 https://backpack.tf/stats/Unusual/Tough Stuff Muffs/Tradable/Craftable/62 - sellers less than 60 keys also also lol https://marketplace.tf/items/tf2/523;5;u17 399.99 https://backpack.tf/stats/Unusual/Company Man/Tradable/Craftable/17 - 2 month unsold at 155 keys also also also lol https://marketplace.tf/items/tf2/31171;5;u30 139.99, this has since been changed down to 119.99 but Offline’s at a much better price regardless https://backpack.tf/stats/Unusual/Reindoonibeanie/Tradable/Craftable/30 - 2 sellers at less than 50 keys also also also also lol I just find it borderline crazy that anyone would defend this behaviour. Really take a look at yourself, and then take a look at these prices and then tell me, “yeah those prices are fair”, “no for sure, aj is definitely wrong here, listing for 100% mark up is more than common practice on mp” (for the astute ones in the crowd, this is indeed a jab at the “old whitelist from around Dec 15th” that are currently bullying, threatening and harassing the newer whitelisted peeps on marketplace about their prices. I do sincerely apologise that you cannot list craft hats for 40c such as here - https://imgur.com/a/r6MogIJ) I’ll take just a little time here to address that. I have personally reached out to about half a dozen people from the Marketplace discord to ask why they might find me irritating and the majority of responses have been a lot more positive than I was prepared for. Most disliked me constantly going on about my unsolved ticket in #site-discussion which is perfectly understandable. Most have also expressed they don't have anything personal against me. More often than not, I feel like most are parroting what others have said about me. Since I hate witchhunting, I never disclosed Erik’s name at all when discussing this ticket in public, if I had an issue with your pricing, I would’ve dmed you about it…like I did with Erik. So I am extremely grateful to those that did take their time to reply to me, I’m very very appreciative of those that did. However, if you still feel the urge to shit talk me behind closed doors then make a private discord instead of slating me in the official Marketplace discord? If you cannot defend your statements of me after being confronted by me, then don't make them in the first place? Feels like common sense, I don't know. I’m surprised and shocked that discord staff did nothing to stop that behaviour, those who cannot separate emotion from business, I find it very hard to respect any decisions made by them. To address https://prnt.sc/156o49h, Erik mentioned afterward that he'd had you blocked on Discord, so he didn't see that Fish's message was directed at you; that'd be an issue to take up with Fish (we addressed this among the other staff members, and Fish acknowledged that was his fault) Killing Tree - I agree this one is overpriced Elf Care - Addressed already Muffs - Similar to the Elf Care, two of these already sold at the price Erik has it listed at Company Man - $399.99 was equal to 172 Keys when Erik first listed it; if he hasn't gone through and updated the prices on all of his items which is quite large https://marketplace.tf/shop/76561198091502579, I'd understand that Reindoonibeanie - Can't say much to this one; only explanation would be like the Company Man with Erik not having updated every item 3 hours ago, ajdislikesyournamingpolicy said: Concluding thoughts: Erik is a bully; he pressures people on the whitelist by viciously undercutting when he doesn’t get his way. He blocks and bans people who disagree with him and then manipulates the situation afterwards. https://imgur.com/a/5TdD17A - here is Erik after banning gamey from TTA This is one of the rare instances that I have to agree with Erik, TTA staff are a “bunch of softies”, in fact, I’m friends with pretty much all of them. The one that isn’t a so called “softie” is you Erik, threatening people with bans because they disagree with your prices and argue with you Erik is hypocritical. This happened a few times in TTA, but a member of TTA, knightfury, was banned for trading with scammers via his bot for the Bonzo Drill. https://imgur.com/a/PRxMG42 - here’s a few screenshots from the time that I took. Erik claims to not know that unusuals purchased off cs.deals are “scammer dumps”. A community admin, and a price mod, claims to not be able to use premium search to double check the item they are purchasing. I find this extremely convenient. You need only open a few histories to know that these items all come from the same scammer alt on cs.deals. Any unusual suggester knows this and I would more than expect a price mod to know this very fact. Responding to undercutting with undercutting isn't a new practice Not every item on cs.deals is a scammer dump Erik neither using nor paying attention to what goes through cs.deals doesn't mean he doesn't know how to check the histories of items I agree with you that messages such as https://prnt.sc/156o49h and https://prnt.sc/156onba (though Erik having not responded here - https://prnt.sc/156oo1z would support the view that he couldn't see your messages) look bad on Erik's part; whether or not he couldn't see your messages is another issue (he should've been more aware of situation at the time though). However, I don't see hostility or toxicity in https://imgur.com/a/FEOCFiY or https://imgur.com/a/lqMJyYJ. I don't have the context for what occurred in TTA or elsewhere between you and Erik to support the notion that he's a bully and a manipulator (he's mentioned passive-aggressive comments from you too, though I haven't seen those yet), so that'd be up to you and him to divulge, but from what I see here, most of the issues you're highlighting seem to have more to do with some questionable prices on Marketplace and a lack of moderation in his own server. Yes, I understand my assessment favors Erik (I tried to not completely side with him), but not all of the examples provided are egregious in my opinion. Both of you were probably hostile towards each other at some point. I don't think either one of you is solely to blame here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norah Posted June 13, 2021 Share Posted June 13, 2021 You mean an oligarchy is manipulative? Who saw that one coming! (Not having a go at you, just a bit obvious, innit). Also minor thing, but I made most of my money on Marketplace from Newly Listed snipes, (I do think it's a scummy practice esp with how snipes could be acted on faster than Buy Orders, but realistically it's either beat 'em or join 'em), and I had no idea there was a community of snipers that got super reactionary over missing them. Wish I could have seen it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fork Posted June 13, 2021 Share Posted June 13, 2021 42 minutes ago, ᴾᴾᴹ Shuffle Spy said: If I may comment on some of the points that I actually can relate to, I'll try to remain impartial in my assessment. I'm not in TTA, so I can't touch on that point. If items sell for $1, does that not signify its market price? The market price on Marketplace may be different from the price on Backpack, but that still can be considered the item's market price Nobody is required to pay the prices items are listed at. There are other cash sites that items can be listed on. If there are concerns about the legitimacy and safety of those other sites, then that would yield a security premium that buyers are willing to pay for items listed on Marketplace. Similar premiums can arise for other reasons (ease of use, reputation, etc.) To utilize Economics jargon, TF2 items are luxury goods, not essential goods. Even if someone were to possess a monopoly in an item's market, nobody is required to pay that price, and the economy wouldn't be ruined as a result Supply and demand would also assist in dictating an item's market price - with the closure of the seller program to most users, the supply drastically decreased, hence the market price should, in theory, increase, even if demand remains fixed From https://imgur.com/a/FEOCFiY I'm not entirely sure where the gloating is. As I see it, Erik's highlighting the absurdity of an item selling for a price far above what it used to, but I detailed above the logic that led, at least in part, to the sales even occurring This is the only point I'll raise regarding your opinion of the whitelist access. As Chicken had mentioned, Marketplace isn't obligated to provide a rationale for every decision they make, whether that be whitelist access or a site ban. Would it be nice to know for clarity? Sure, it's just not a requirement on their part. I would expect prices to spike more than expected initially after the seller program closure due to the shock actually taking effect, which would explain why sales were above your projections at the time; afterwards, sellers likely saw that those prices could be maintained due to the fact that if the item sold at that price once, it could do so again "but if a hat more than comfortably sold at a higher price than market, why raise it any further?" - If an item could comfortably sell at buy order price, and that price was profitable for you, why would you raise your price above the buy order price? From an Economics standpoint, it could be that the initial sale price was still below the equilibrium price. The only way to find out is to list the item for higher, see if it sells, and if it doesn't, then drop it down again "Marketplace literally issued a warning about repeated highballing" - If the item is selling at a certain price, it's not really highballing to list another of the same item for slightly higher You're not completely absolved of the attacking language when in https://imgur.com/a/lqMJyYJ I see "Get off your high horse, your argument has sand for support" and "I don't really like you that much," as well as "you may want to get your eyes checked" from the end of this section of your post. The following chat messages happened after Gamey was banned from TTA, so I imagine Erik didn't ban/block you and Gamey solely because you voiced your grievances about Erik's Marketplace prices Killer Solo - After tax, $49.99 is $44.99, which is closer to 22 Keys since Keys were around $2 at the time of the sale - https://manic.tf/keyprice/?at=2021-05-23; 22 is not egregiously far from 18 Keys, and the gap can be explained from the supply/demand, premiums, etc. I mentioned earlier Fire Fighter - Erik paid 39 Keys in December to list it for $179.99... after it already sold twice on Marketplace for $181 in September and $190 in November Elf Care Provider - The first sale at $100 (43 Keys at the time) was quite close to the price on Backpack at the time https://gladiator.tf/listings/60063edbf6df39101cf036bd; if it could sell once at that price, theoretically it could sell again at that price, and it did twice To address https://prnt.sc/156o49h, Erik mentioned afterward that he'd had you blocked on Discord, so he didn't see that Fish's message was directed at you; that'd be an issue to take up with Fish (we addressed this among the other staff members, and Fish acknowledged that was his fault) Killing Tree - I agree this one is overpriced Elf Care - Addressed already Muffs - Similar to the Elf Care, two of these already sold at the price Erik has it listed at Company Man - $399.99 was equal to 172 Keys when Erik first listed it; if he hasn't gone through and updated the prices on all of his items which is quite large https://marketplace.tf/shop/76561198091502579, I'd understand that Reindoonibeanie - Can't say much to this one; only explanation would be like the Company Man with Erik not having updated every item Responding to undercutting with undercutting isn't a new practice Not every item on cs.deals is a scammer dump Erik neither using nor paying attention to what goes through cs.deals doesn't mean he doesn't know how to check the histories of items I agree with you that messages such as https://prnt.sc/156o49h and https://prnt.sc/156onba (though Erik having not responded here - https://prnt.sc/156oo1z would support the view that he couldn't see your messages) look bad on Erik's part; whether or not he couldn't see your messages is another issue (he should've been more aware of situation at the time though). However, I don't see hostility or toxicity in https://imgur.com/a/FEOCFiY or https://imgur.com/a/lqMJyYJ. I don't have the context for what occurred in TTA or elsewhere between you and Erik to support the notion that he's a bully and a manipulator (he's mentioned passive-aggressive comments from you too, though I haven't seen those yet), so that'd be up to you and him to divulge, but from what I see here, most of the issues you're highlighting seem to have more to do with some questionable prices on Marketplace and a lack of moderation in his own server. Yes, I understand my assessment favors Erik (I tried to not completely side with him), but not all of the examples provided are egregious in my opinion. Both of you were probably hostile towards each other at some point. I don't think either one of you is solely to blame here. "If I may comment on some of the points that I actually can relate to, I'll try to remain impartial in my assessment." "Yes, I understand my assessment favors Erik (I tried to not completely side with him)" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Teeny Tiny Cat Posted June 13, 2021 Administrators Share Posted June 13, 2021 I've read through a lot from both sides at this point, and tbh I see where you're coming from but I don't really get how it all got directed at Erik. The issue is the marketplace whitelist and the environment it causes for trading, and it is a very real issue that I understand your frustration with. When you reduce the number of people who can sell that way so drastically, this was obviously going to happen. I don't think it's really Erik's fault more than anyone else who sells there. It's the fault of marketplace for the way they put it into place. And again, I understand why they did, but that doesn't alter that it's created this situation. I don't think your goal is really well served by directing this soley at Erik. I also don't think Erik, and other community staff members, have reacted well or maturely to your complaints, but in part that may be because they feel targeted for something that is not ultimately their fault in the way you are painting it to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
🔥Master Throne Crimson🔥 Posted June 13, 2021 Share Posted June 13, 2021 Erik's definitely been odd you know, i had the situation where he reported me for declining a correct pure offer even tho i didn't, he just traded the keys away and was frustruated it kept happening, however that frustruation isn't my fault now is it. Im his home boy and he reports me on such a petty and incorrect manner, very odd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angry_worms Posted June 13, 2021 Share Posted June 13, 2021 lol @ the posts that insinuate that aj is mad about not being in the marketplace whitelist when he's also highlighting the fact that there's even favoritism within the whitelist. toxic forums as always Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterBoot Posted June 13, 2021 Share Posted June 13, 2021 Im not sure if I want to respond cause I feel like sticking out my neck might have consequences for my newly obtained whitelist status. When applications opened up, I was very happy. It was always nice to sell on mp pre 15 dec. So, when me and a couple other people got accepted I joined the mp discord and i noticed other people weren't so happy with it, Erik aswell. I noticed quickly that a lot of these people look up to him, maybe because he is mod or he just has a lot of stuff. But Erik didnt seem to happy with the influx of new sellers. This hostile behaviour from the old mp whitelists defenitly increased when some items like scrap weapons and craft hats were starting to drop to reasonable prices. Erik was talking about whitelist etiquette for newly invited sellers and others soon picked it up and even the word cartel was being used. This is also not mentioning Eriks toxic behaviour and trying to make everyone dislike aj and even gameygame6 at some point. This toxic behaviour continued and I personally had to leave the mp discord cause I was getting baited and didnt want to say things that would lose my whitelist status. Thats the reason I feel hesitant to write this. Especially since I see that aj and gameygame both are not accepted into the program, while their backpacks and things they sell should be a great asset to mp. (Eventhough aj doesnt mind not being whitelisted) I hope the mods can make a proper discission. I know this is difficult and maybe some mods have some biases due to their whitelist status from the start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moder112 Posted June 13, 2021 Share Posted June 13, 2021 3 hours ago, Teeny Tiny Cat said: I don't think your goal is really well served by directing this soley at Erik. I also don't think Erik, and other community staff members, have reacted well or maturely to your complaints, but in part that may be because they feel targeted for something that is not ultimately their fault in the way you are painting it to be. I don't agree with this assesment, Erik is an individual and I've come to see his actions to be very much deliberate, he knows what he's doing and we can't just blame the system. As someone who sells on marketplace and tries to price items fairly I get to see a lot of the bad pricing first hand. Besides Alex trying to sell craft hats for 40 cents, Erik is probably the worst offender when it comes to a pattern. How we I know it's deliberate? Well, after AJ raised hell in the marketplace discord for the nth time I confronted him about it. I was of the mindset that he was in the wrong, as the way he behaved biased me against him, but after talking to him I started to doubt my position. I did my research and I've noticed a pattern of deliberate behavior to prevent prices of erik's prized hats from going down. Please consider these: Burning Flames Reindoonibeanie Erik listing on MP: 299.99$ https://archive.ph/oB55D Erik buy order on backpack: 90k, ~19k above anyone else. https://gladiator.tf/listings/60b926f1c6720cbef7d9efa7 Scorching Flames Reindoonibeanie Erik listing on MP: 299.99$ https://archive.is/qPTUE Erik buy order on backpack: 85k, ~13k above anyone else. https://gladiator.tf/listings/60c3821e3cc1c1afae1a1ebf Purple Energy Reindoonibeanie Erik listing on MP: $199.99 https://archive.ph/ljRMP Erik buy order on backpack: 70k, ~16k above anyone else. https://gladiator.tf/listings/60c12b116080e68a8324e78e Green Energy Reindoonibeanie Erik listing on MP: 199.99$ https://archive.ph/uQiGH Erik buy order on backpack: 65k, ~20k above anyone else. https://gladiator.tf/listings/60ba2d30d50ece8c76af026e Disco Beat Down Reindoonibeanie Erik listing on MP: 199.99$ https://archive.is/RMQVX Erik buy order on backpack: 42k, ~10k above anyone else. https://gladiator.tf/listings/60c4ace71ec6e00dd8dd59a3 Frozen Fractals Reindoonibeanie Erik listing on MP: 199.99$ https://archive.ph/o91h9 Erik buy order on backpack: 65k, ~19k above anyone else. (We disregard chonky bee/pizza bot buy order, since this gladiator bot belongs to valpip, someone who regularly buys hats for Erik, and prolly just made a buy order to flip to him) https://gladiator.tf/listings/60c3789ff654e8a9700b6f41 Circling Heart Reindoonibeanie Erik listing on MP: 199.99$ https://archive.ph/JIwrF Erik buy order on backpack: 50k, ~10k above anyone else. https://gladiator.tf/listings/60ba24f7194fde85e455a48f Divine Desire Reindoonibeanie Erik listing on MP: 199.99$ https://archive.ph/CfD55 Erik buy order on backpack: 75k, ~17k above anyone else. (once again we ignore valpip) https://gladiator.tf/listings/60ba300965e99182d4e22076 Distant Dream Reindoonibeanie Erik listing on MP: 199.99$ https://archive.ph/9LifU Erik buy order on backpack: 75k, ~33k above anyone else, if we disregard people affiliated with erik (valpip at 65k, and erik's own gladiator bot at 60k) https://archive.is/vPqLc This isn't just me cherrypicking hats "15$ above market value" as fish put it, this is just the results that i got from going top down in his winter 2020 section and ignoring strange unusuals https://marketplace.tf/shop/76561198091502579?appid=440&sicollection=Winter2020Cosmetics_collection&ssortfield=min_price Alright, I'm not convinced it's deliberate though That is the reason why I picked beanies in particular. Marketplace staff has stated that they'd rather people contact the sellers themselves in cases like these so I did. Erik asked me to match his hat in dms when I undercut him on one of these two weeks ago. I took this opportunity to confront him about it. I don't feel that comfortable just leaking private dms in public, but if Erik disagrees with my assessment, he may give me the permission to post them. What I took from our conversation is: - Erik might reprice some of his winter 2020 stuff in the future he didn't. - Beanies sell well so he goes out of his way to make a "fair offer" to sellers but not buyers? - "I have my buy order that high because I'm willing to pay that price, it's sold for $200 6 times before" Prices of hats fall after hype and I can't see this statement as nothing but dishonest, considering it's coming from a price moderator. - Erik bought at hype prices hence markup This is actual nonsense as you shouldn't be buying from sell orders with a large gap and expecting to flip on mp for x2 price Disco Beat Down: 54k from sell orders, listed at 199.99$ https://backpack.tf/item/9795729934 https://gladiator.tf/listings/604680e40a8e552fd7533a0a Scorching Flames Reindoonibeanie: no more than 100k, listed at 299.99$ bought by valpip from sell orders and given to erik hard to pinpoint because user's inventory was rarely cached https://backpack.tf/item/9760933414 https://backpack.tf/profiles/76561198308121805#!/compare/1619308800/1620172800 https://gladiator.tf/listings/608f050499062f3e5d50cd4a Circling Heart Reindoonibeanie: 44k bought by valpip from sell orders, listed at 199.99$ https://backpack.tf/item/9912803862 https://backpack.tf/profiles/76561198010763813#!/compare/1613779200/1616371200 https://gladiator.tf/listings/60578bbb0e2f43de812858b3 Circling Heart Reindoonibeanie: 50k bought by valpip from buy orders, listed at 199.99$ https://backpack.tf/item/9746438344 https://gladiator.tf/listings/608abe37410742f2233b5b7a All of these seem to have been fetched by valpip but I doubt he paid much on top. - Erik says he doesn't have an evil plan, and admits that the buy orders are not a good look, but he just really likes the beanies. However he doesn't do anything about the buy orders nor does he lower any of them. In fact he put up additional buy orders since. DD beanie buy orders at the time of my confrontation with Erik which happened on the 26th https://gladiator.tf/listings/60ae4d5b0b136c3af129e7e0 VS now https://archive.is/vPqLc (Manual buy order from bot at 60k) These were the main issues we discussed and we parted ways on a good note. However his inaction, further statements in public chats since, and retaliation vs users who have confronted him, soured how I feel towards him After giving everyone a chance I can't see this as anything but deliberate behavior. I don't agree with how marketplace handled the ticket but to say that it's solely the fault of the site, is to deny Erik the autonomy and accountability that comes with being a human. It was his choice to set the prices and refuse to lower them, not the choice of marketplace staff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Teeny Tiny Cat Posted June 13, 2021 Administrators Share Posted June 13, 2021 When I say it's not really his fault, I don't mean he doesn't deliberately price stuff high - I can't speak to that either way, I don't have a ton of interest in checking price history for a ton of individual items - what I mean is that the thing that allows him to do this is the environment created by a very restricted whitelist. People can price stuff however they want, if people are willing to pay it then idk that anyone can really argue it's overpriced. "It was his choice to set the prices and refuse to lower them, not the choice of marketplace staff." so what? He can price his items however he wants to. That isn't an issue, to me. The issue isn't any individual person, it's the restricted economy created by the whitelist. I don't disagree remotely that the whitelist is favouritism. I'm whitelisted and I don't even trade, haven't sold anything on there since it happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ApothicЯ Posted June 13, 2021 Share Posted June 13, 2021 2 hours ago, Teeny Tiny Cat said: People can price stuff however they want, if people are willing to pay it then idk that anyone can really argue it's overpriced. "It was his choice to set the prices and refuse to lower them, not the choice of marketplace staff." so what? He can price his items however he wants to. Well that's quite in contradiction with https://prnt.sc/xm73lz (credits to AJ) In the situation of monopoly created after the end of seller program, that's clearly unethical Edit : I'm not targeting anyone specifically by saying people are highballing now on MP. I don't know the accused above nor anybody from MP staff or whitelist program (I'm not part of it and didn't even bother begging my way into it, even after making $40K+ of benefits on the website during the open-seller program). I know this is quite off-topic to set-up the trial of whitelist program instead of the accused above, but I believe that some of people buying stuff on MP now are the same that buy stuff from in-game store : inexperienced traders. Which don't know the true value of items, which don't know they could get keys for less than $1.70 on this forum or other 3rd-party websites then could buy their items a lot cheaper anywhere, which blindly trust MP for the good reputation they built among the years, and are now lured by a few people (who remain unpunished for that, against the website guidelines) to get their items for highballing prices. But blaming only a few people would be wrong, even looking at the stable price of the key on MP (none is undercutting each other) is showing that price is regulated upstream. And if saying that selling a lot of keys is one of the conditions to enter the program, is telling that most of the whitelist sellers (if it's not ALL) are involved in an unfair competition towards non-whitelist traders. The whole whitelist-seller program is wrong (and blaming the buyers for putting an end to the open-seller program was just hypocritical, buyers remain the same as before... only the sellers changed) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moder112 Posted June 13, 2021 Share Posted June 13, 2021 13 minutes ago, Teeny Tiny Cat said: When I say it's not really his fault, I don't mean he doesn't deliberately price stuff high - I can't speak to that either way, I don't have a ton of interest in checking price history for a ton of individual items - what I mean is that the thing that allows him to do this is the environment created by a very restricted whitelist. People can price stuff however they want, if people are willing to pay it then idk that anyone can really argue it's overpriced. "It was his choice to set the prices and refuse to lower them, not the choice of marketplace staff." so what? He can price his items however he wants to. That isn't an issue, to me. The issue isn't any individual person, it's the restricted economy created by the whitelist. I don't disagree remotely that the whitelist is favouritism. I'm whitelisted and I don't even trade, haven't sold anything on there since it happened. Right so, I apologize if my "essay" seemed a bit targeted, I quoted you as a starting point to what I wanted to discuss, since It's a common argument. Now, the whitelist, one of the rules of the program is not to "highball" items, we've had a sitewide announcement for sellers over it back in january and with the recently launched seller applications it's one of the terms you need to agree to. It doesn't seem that it is a practice marketplace encourages. Marketplace has enforced this rule in the past for egregious pricing, delisting mindacos's "premium" level 69 items and banning flappy for selling strange weapons for 4.99$. I don't know why it has not been done so with what erik is doing. It's also not a restricted economy anymore, with the new applications it's easy for people to list many hats he's been highballing for market rates, however this set of items I've shown is nearly impossible to compete with him on, since the ridiculous buy orders are keeping the competition from getting them cheaper. Lastly you are whitelisted since you are an admin, and since the initial whitelist was comprised of handpicked trusted sellers bp staff were automatically included. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Teeny Tiny Cat Posted June 13, 2021 Administrators Share Posted June 13, 2021 3 minutes ago, ApothicЯ said: Well that's quite in contradiction with https://prnt.sc/xm73lz (credits to AJ) In the situation of monopoly created after the end of seller program, that's clearly unethical Unusuals don't really have a fixed market value, though? They change all the time, that's why we have a website built around price suggestions. 1 minute ago, Moder112 said: Right so, I apologize if my "essay" seemed a bit targeted, I quoted you as a starting point to what I wanted to discuss, since It's a common argument. Now, the whitelist, one of the rules of the program is not to "highball" items, we've had a sitewide announcement for sellers over it back in january and with the recently launched seller applications it's one of the terms you need to agree to. It doesn't seem that it is a practice marketplace encourages. Marketplace has enforced this rule in the past for egregious pricing, delisting mindacos's "premium" level 69 items and banning flappy for selling strange weapons for 4.99$. I don't know why it has not been done so with what erik is doing. It's also not a restricted economy anymore, with the new applications it's easy for people to list many hats he's been highballing for market rates, however this set of items I've shown is nearly impossible to compete with him on, since the ridiculous buy orders are keeping the competition from getting them cheaper. Lastly you are whitelisted since you are an admin, and since the initial whitelist was comprised of handpicked trusted sellers bp staff were automatically included. See previous post. Low-value items with fairly stable prices =/= unusuals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Teeny Tiny Cat Posted June 13, 2021 Administrators Share Posted June 13, 2021 That's my view on why the rule seems to be enforced in one instance but not another. I can't tell you for sure, I don't work for marketplace. Seems like something to take up with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moder112 Posted June 13, 2021 Share Posted June 13, 2021 6 minutes ago, Teeny Tiny Cat said: See previous post. Low-value items with fairly stable prices =/= unusuals. Why does bp even accept sharking reports then if unpriced unusuals can't have an estimated worth. I've provided proof of what he got the items for, how much they were being sold for at the time and what they are being sold for currently, I don't know why are you disregarding that completly. It was a large markup at the time, its an even bigger one now. AJ has even more proof since this wasn't the main focus of my post, just the insane buy orders keeping prices up. (which btw are relatively recent, as they weren't a thing in the gladiator snapshots from when he got them) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Teeny Tiny Cat Posted June 13, 2021 Administrators Share Posted June 13, 2021 1 minute ago, Moder112 said: Why does bp even accept sharking reports then if unpriced unusuals can't have an estimated worth. I've provided proof of what he got the items for, how much they were being sold for at the time and what they are being sold for currently, I don't know why are you disregarding that completly. It was a large markup at the time, its an even bigger one now. They can have an estimated worth, but it can also change. People are free to list things as high as they want to, if people don't wanna pay it they won't pay it. If they do wanna pay it, well... that's what it's worth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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