No, this has nothing to do with key price

[Samuel G. Best]

http://forums.backpack.tf/index.php?/topic/7689-i-am-just-saying/

 

um, let me make it clear, this has nothing to do with the price of any particular item.

 

I am just saying even the suggester's possession of the item the price of which is being suggested is shown in the thread,

I dunno why there is no conflict of interest when mod is accepting suggestions concerning items which they have large quantity of.

 

um, take the recent key price suggestion as an example, (this is just an example, I am not trying to complain about the price here, I think the price is great and the proof is ace)

the suggestion is accepted by a mod with 300+ keys 

and his backpack value shown on bp.tf rose considerably immediately

i am sure the mods are conscientiously fulfilling their duties

but a potential threat of conflict of interests seem very obvious

 

just wanna ask if bp.tf is gonna do anything to address the "seemingly obvious" conflict of interests problems? 

[Cynexyl]

still, key price in USD stays basically the same.

even if he did that to profit, it would be only like 33 ref.

which is not that much considering his bp

[Baloo]

If the moderator wished to sell his keys for 7.11 refined or more before the suggestion had been passed, or even made, then he could have since there were already plenty of buyers at that price. Also keys are a unique case where its not rare at all for active traders to have a stockpile of keys since they use this to continue trading. Most people are looking to sell their items for keys because it is a currency item, so that is why he would have a lot of keys. Its a lot rarer for active traders to not have keys than to have them. You, personally, have 50 keys in your backpack which is more than you have of any other item. Have you ever considered why that is? Its because you're using those keys to trade, and its a very common thing for all traders to have keys.

 

Its not a conflict of interest.

[Samuel G. Best]

still, key price in USD stays basically the same.

even if he did that to profit, it would be only like 33 ref.

which is not that much considering his bp

 

i hv to make this very clear

the key suggestion is an example only

there can be other occasions on which the mod have potential threats of conflict of interests too

 

and to address your disapproval:

1) like you said, he can act as a market maker to profit from the bid-ask spread, not necessarily capturing the capital gains in the paypal market

2) conflicts of interests compromise credibility regardless of the extent of the conflicts nor the size of the interests

 

I am sure the mods are objective but the system should be as human-proof as possible, I assume.

thats why i m saying the "threats of conflict of interests" not the "problem of existing conflict of interests"

[Christley </3 Peelz]

the mod that accepted that suggestion isnt affected by the change in keyprices since he only deals with unusuals.

i would've accepted that suggestion aswell and i have over 600 keys on 2 accounts. doesnt make me biased at all, since no mods here flip keys. its terrible profit

[Samuel G. Best]

If the moderator wished to sell his keys for 7.11 refined or more before the suggestion had been passed, or even made, then he could have since there were already plenty of buyers at that price. Also keys are a unique case where its not rare at all for active traders to have a stockpile of keys since they use this to continue trading. Most people are looking to sell their items for keys because it is a currency item, so that is why he would have a lot of keys. Its a lot rarer for active traders to not have keys than to have them.

 

Its not a conflict of interest.

 

In real life situation, we try to avoid conflict of interests, instead of explaining to the stakeholders afterwards.

I am sure there are logical reasons for the mod in this example to hold a large quantity of items the price of which is being suggested 

therefore, I never say there is a confirmed conflict of interests

I am just pointing out there is an obvious threat of conflict of interests.

[Samuel G. Best]

the mod that accepted that suggestion isnt affected by the change in keyprices since he only deals with unusuals.

i would've accepted that suggestion aswell and i have over 600 keys on 2 accounts. doesnt make me biased at all, since no mods here flip keys. its terrible profit

 

oh, as a common user of the site, I have no access to your information.

but that is ok, becoz the key suggestion is merely an example I used to illustrate the rationale 

 

as you said, they deals unusuals,

what if the price of the unusuals which the mod happens to possess is being suggested,

should he be prohibited to accept the change?

or should his possession of the said item be disclosed?

as you said, you have two accounts, how abt the mods?

shd they disclose their other trading accounts too?

 

these are the real questions

screw the key price, i aint give no shit 

[AwesomeMcCoolName]

oh, as a common user of the site, I have no access to your information.

but that is ok, becoz the key suggestion is merely an example I used to illustrate the rationale 

 

as you said, they deals unusuals,

what if the price of the unusuals which the mod happens to possess is being suggested,

should he be prohibited to accept the change?

or should his possession of the said item be disclosed?

as you said, you have two accounts, how abt the mods?

shd they disclose their other trading accounts too?

 

these are the real questions

screw the key price, i aint give no shit 

You forget the fact that there needs to be prove to back the suggestion up. If the proof supports a suggestion than what the mod has or doesn't have is irrelevant. 

[Julia Gillard the Honest]

If a moderator or administrator ever abused his or her position, we would notice and complain. However, you can't forbid giving suggested values for all of their items.

[Baloo]

You cannot use keys to illustrate a possible conflict of interest because are used entirely diffently than almost any other item in the game besides refined and buds. If he had 200 Strange Rocket Launchers or 50 Vintage Soldier Stashes, then yes, there's a strong chance for a conflict of interest because both of those would be seen as abnormal, but there's nothing at all uncommon about someone owning multiple keys numbering in the tens or hundreds since its a core currency item and apparently that message is simply not breaking through to you.

 

Not to mention that your completely disregarding the key suggestion had a majority of positive votes from the all people who voted which was above a thousand.

[NotPeng]

I'm just happy that Dota isn't so inflated cause of idiotic $0.01 profiters. I'll probably move to that and leave the shitty TF2 economy. It's just getting worse and worse day by day.

[Christley </3 Peelz]

oh, as a common user of the site, I have no access to your information.

but that is ok, becoz the key suggestion is merely an example I used to illustrate the rationale 

 

as you said, they deals unusuals,

what if the price of the unusuals which the mod happens to possess is being suggested,

should he be prohibited to accept the change? yes, his job is to be subjective. if you dont find him to be subjective, you can create a dispute towards the mod/suggestion proving it

or should his possession of the said item be disclosed? doesnt matter if he owns the item. the mods which manage items today are so inaffected by the changes of prices that they dont care. take for example during the steam sales, puddington and bucket lose quite a lot of their profit since they have half their inventory full of paints. yet they still accept the price

as you said, you have two accounts, how abt the mods? some mods probably have alts, why would that matter?

shd they disclose their other trading accounts too? why would they? its up to them. anyone can disprove a suggestion or file a dispute, so they cant really accept a suggestion without any proof

 

these are the real questions

screw the key price, i aint give no shit 

[Baloo]

I'm just happy that Dota isn't so inflated cause of idiotic $0.01 profiters. I'll probably move to that and leave the shitty TF2 economy. It's just getting worse and worse day by day.

No one is forcing you to stay, quite frankly I'm sick of seeing numerous of the same people make this statement every time a currency changes because people think a static economy is supposed to be a good thing.

[Julia Gillard the Honest]

um, let me make it clear, this has nothing to do with the price of any particular item.

 

I'm just happy that Dota isn't so inflated cause of idiotic $0.01 profiters. I'll probably move to that and leave the shitty TF2 economy. It's just getting worse and worse day by day.

 

Let's not make another key thread.

[Samuel G. Best]

 

You cannot use keys to illustrate a possible conflict of interest because are used entirely diffently than almost any other item in the game besides refined and buds. If he had 200 Strange Rocket Launchers or 50 Vintage Soldier Stashes, then yes, there's a strong chance for a conflict of interest because both of those would be seen as abnormal, but there's nothing at all uncommon about someone owning multiple keys numbering in the tens or hundreds since its a core currency item and apparently that message is simply not breaking through to you.

 

Not to mention that your completely disregarding the key suggestion had a majority of positive votes from the all people who voted which was above a thousand.

 

I think some of my messages are not getting through to you

like I said

1) I am sure they have logical reasons to have so many keys

but that does not make the threat disappear because there is no mechanism to prevent him from profiting from the suggestion deliberately.

 

2) if the votes are the only factor to consider, we do not need a mod to accept the suggestion. I am sure there will be occasions at which the mod has to make decision against the votes.

 

Bottom line, I thought that the majority of the Netizens would like to see an online community

the regulation of which depends on a well-defined system, instead of solely the integrity of the moderator.

Turns out most of the experienced users quite favor the oriental human-base management.

 

 

Let's not make another key thread.

 

thank you, appreciate that

 

 

 

oh, as a common user of the site, I have no access to your information.

but that is ok, becoz the key suggestion is merely an example I used to illustrate the rationale

 

as you said, they deals unusuals,

what if the price of the unusuals which the mod happens to possess is being suggested,

should he be prohibited to accept the change? yes, his job is to be subjective. if you dont find him to be subjective, you can create a dispute towards the mod/suggestion proving it

or should his possession of the said item be disclosed? doesnt matter if he owns the item. the mods which manage items today are so inaffected by the changes of prices that they dont care. take for example during the steam sales, puddington and bucket lose quite a lot of their profit since they have half their inventory full of paints. yet they still accept the price

as you said, you have two accounts, how abt the mods? some mods probably have alts, why would that matter?

shd they disclose their other trading accounts too? why would they? its up to them. anyone can disprove a suggestion or file a dispute, so they cant really accept a suggestion without any proof

 

these are the real questions

screw the key price, i aint give no shit

 

 

like I said, I thought a system which minimizes the potential threats of subjective bias would be favored by our fellow members of the site

I am sure that all the mods are faithfully serving their duties and I have never demanded any proof

I am merely pointing out the threats of conflict of interests I perceive due to:

 

1) mods possession not shown in a thread

2) mods alt. trading accounts are not disclosed

3) decisions are (seemingly) made by individual mods instead of being a collective one

 

frankly, I believe the potential is quite explicit

but whether or not it is to be addressed

or most of the members are satisfied with the status quo

I think this shd be the point of focus

[HusKy]

If a mod with 0 keys (or unusuals, etc.) would accept the suggestion, would that make any difference?

They are not making the price up, but rather just reflecting on current market situation.

 

edit. Also, if someone accepts suggestion that lowers a price and they have the item in question, what does that make them?

[Samuel G. Best]

If a mod with 0 keys (or unusuals, etc.) would accept the suggestion, would that make any difference?

They are not making the price up, but rather just reflecting on current market situation.

 

How about there has to be more than one mod, or even unanimous vote among the mods, to pass a suggestion like that?

 

Please refrain yourself from defending the recent key price suggestion

I, like you, think the suggestion aptly reflects the market and the proof is more than adequate

I am just pointing out some glitches of the system and would like to see if rectifications are to be sought.

 

Of coz, having mods with no keys no accept a key price suggestion is one solution.

But like I mention, there are other solutions.

Please dun use the failure of one measure to conclude that this threat is impossible to resolve.

[AwesomeMcCoolName]

I'm just happy that Dota isn't so inflated cause of idiotic $0.01 profiters. I'll probably move to that and leave the shitty TF2 economy. It's just getting worse and worse day by day.

better and better* 

 

According to Teeird there just isn't a lot of room for profit in d2 anymore due to recent updates and the instability caused by valve treating dota like a tf2 test market. 

 

How about there has to be more than one mod, or even unanimous vote among the mods, to pass a suggestion like that?

 

Please refrain yourself from defending the recent key price suggestion

I, like you, think the suggestion aptly reflects the market and the proof is more than adequate

I am just pointing out some glitches of the system and would like to see if rectifications are to be sought.

 

Of coz, having mods with no keys no accept a key price suggestion is one solution.

But like I mention, there are other solutions.

Please dun use the failure of one measure to conclude that this threat is impossible to resolve.

 

There is, the mods discuss key suggestions, if only one mod thought it should pass but all others thought it shouldn't, then it wouldn't pass. 

[polar]

just wanna ask if bp.tf is gonna do anything to address the "seemingly obvious" conflict of interests problems? 

 

Want to clear a few things up here. At least since I have joined the moderating team, the mods have always come to collective agreements on all currency suggestions. We talk about this with each other in chat as well as in our admin forums - http://i.imgur.com/FFzp4gW.png

 

Please note here that not only do we talk about currency suggestions, we all communicate about every single mod application and other major things like the user trust system and how to handle scm proof.

 

Mod input is only 1 factor we consider when assessing suggestions. Votes, comments, and proof provided are another. Votes here were positive, proof was substantial, and comments really didn't provide any counterproof for the suggested price. You can even consider alternative sources of proof such as tf2finance and buying selling prices at places like scrap.tf. Taken all together - that's how we make decisions on currency - this decision was a relatively easy one.

[Samuel G. Best]

better and better* 

 

According to Teeird there just isn't a lot of room for profit in d2 anymore due to recent updates and the instability caused by valve treating dota like a tf2 test market. 

 

 

There is, the mods discuss key suggestions, if only one mod thought it should pass but all others thought it shouldn't, then it wouldn't pass. 

 

Are there explicit rules governing the suggestion process in case of a divided opinions among mods?

 

If there are, I dun think all the members will go look through it as they dun seem to like reading lengthy text too much,

but it would be great to let some people know the system is in place.

[HusKy]

(1) How about there has to be more than one mod, or even unanimous vote among the mods, to pass a suggestion like that?

 

(2) Of coz, having mods with no keys no accept a key price suggestion is one solution.

(1) How do you know there isnt? (edit. See polar bears post.)

(2) No it isn't.

[Chief D]

You are a new user who doesn't seem to understand how thing here work. I hope this thread helps you clear things up.

 

Please read all the replies, as you seem to have missed polar's post (above).

 

Now, let's say I trade strange flare guns. I know the market, I buy and sell them for profit. I have 100 in my backpack and notice they are selling pretty fast because, apparently, the price rose. Now, as I said, I know the s. flare gun market and have enough proof to make a suggestion. What do I do? Well, I make the suggestion. Will I profit because of the suggestion? No. Why, if the price is increased? The price increase happened before the suggestion was made, that's why it was made in the first place.

[Samuel G. Best]

Want to clear a few things up here. At least since I have joined the moderating team, the mods have always come to collective agreements on all currency suggestions. We talk about this with each other in chat as well as in our admin forums - http://i.imgur.com/FFzp4gW.png

 

Please note here that not only do we talk about currency suggestions, we all communicate about every single mod application and other major things like the user trust system and how to handle scm proof.

 

Mod input is only 1 factor we consider when assessing suggestions. Votes, comments, and proof provided are another. Votes here were positive, proof was substantial, and comments really didn't provide any counterproof for the suggested price. You can even consider alternative sources of proof such as tf2finance and buying selling prices at places like scrap.tf. Taken all together - that's how we make decisions on currency - this decision was a relatively easy one.

 

With all due respect, I think you are missing my point. 

Again, this is not a thread against the decision of last key suggestion 

I, again, think the decision was correct based on the rules laid down beforehand.

 

What I am concerned is that, 

as a member of the site, I cannot see any system in place to minimize the threat of conflict of interests. 

Now I know there are discussions among the mods on the suggestions and other issues 

but they are rather opaque to us. 

In regard to the design of the suggestion thread, it is easy to let us be misled to think this is an individual decision as only one name of mod is shown. 

Even thought there are communications among the managing team, can the system be more robust and confidence-assuring?

 

Also, please dun play down the significance of mod factor. Although it is just one of the factors, it is the dominant one. 

 

Please be reminded that I am just trying to give some opinions to rectify some of the inadequacies I see,

so as to make the site better.

Please dun fixate on the example I give, as what I would like to refer to is a generalized situation 

[AwesomeMcCoolName]

With all due respect, I think you are missing my point. 

Again, this is not a thread against the decision of last key suggestion 

I, again, think the decision was correct based on the rules laid down beforehand.

 

What I am concerned is that, 

as a member of the site, I cannot see any system in place to minimize the threat of conflict of interests. 

Now I know there are discussions among the mods on the suggestions and other issues 

but they are rather opaque to us. 

In regard to the design of the suggestion thread, it is easy to let us be misled to think this is an individual decision as only one name of mod is shown. 

Even thought there are communications among the managing team, can the system be more robust and confidence-assuring?

 

Also, please dun play down the significance of mod factor. Although it is just one of the factors, it is the dominant one. 

 

Please be reminded that I am just trying to give some opinions to rectify some of the inadequacies I see,

so as to make the site better.

Please dun fixate on the example I give, as what I would like to refer to is a generalized situation 

A conflict of interest shouldn't be an issue because 1) the market changed before the suggestion--hence why the suggestion was made, 2) there has to be proof to support the suggestion for it to get accepted. 

[Samuel G. Best]

You are a new user who doesn't seem to understand how thing here work. I hope this thread helps you clear things up.

 

Please read all the replies, as you seem to have missed polar's post (above).

 

Now, let's say I trade strange flare guns. I know the market, I buy and sell them for profit. I have 100 in my backpack and notice they are selling pretty fast because, apparently, the price rose. Now, as I said, I know the s. flare gun market and have enough proof to make a suggestion. What do I do? Well, I make the suggestion. Will I profit because of the suggestion? No. Why, if the price is increased? The price increase happened before the suggestion was made, that's why it was made in the first place.

 

Um, please remain focus on the subject instead of making reference to my experience. (fyi, I am not a new user and I know perfectly well what this site and the market is about)

 

Under a perfect situation, of coz, the suggestion comes after the change of real market price and accepting it will not yield extra profit as the market is already adjusted to a new equilibrium

 

However, there are more complicated situations. What if the suggested range is above the current one and is still below the real market price? This implies that: posting ads of buying the item at bp price, which is thought to be a reasonable one, from less informed traders and arbitraging immediately at the comparatively more efficient market, can earn abnormal returns. This is one of the many cases the potentials of conflict of interests occur of the mod has a large quantity of the concerned items. 

 

I have never doubted if there are communications between mods

I merely suggest that it can be more transparent and there should be human-independent systems to ensure the site's accuracy and credibility, instead of relying solely on mods' integrity.