Steam Community Market as proof: Community thoughts

[Distinctively Vincent]

Can the community market be treated as valid proof towards a suggestion? As per his proposed guide, Jon argues that the community market should be used in a conservative manner when proof is lacking in direct trades on common trading sites, when SCM is seeing significant usage for that item, and when there is a significant difference between what SCM's results suggest and bp.tf's current pricing. I believe that if SCM is to be used in pricing, that would indeed be the only legitimate way to make use of it, but the question remains- SHOULD it be used? Why or why not?

 

I'm going to throw an anonymous poll on here- first time doing so, apologies if I screw it up- but much like a bp.tf suggestion, far more important are your worded thoughts on the matter.

 

Jon's guide, for reference: http://forums.backpack.tf/index.php?/topic/7285-how-to-properly-use-scm-sales-as-proof/

[Baloo]

I do not believe it should be used as proof since the main purpose of backpack.tf is to reflect the in-game value of items based on their transactions with items considered to be currency in TF2 such as refined, keys and buds.

 

At least for normal items. Obviously for unusuals there are cash trades and trades with other unusuals that make the system more of a gray area, but in regards to the botkillers that Sir Jon is raising, I stand by my first point.

[1HP Hope Springs Eternal]

If you are not going to price the stuff that clearly is best priced via the market, you should not have a price for them at all.  I don't want there to come a point where you have lots of suggestions with just the market as your proof.  However, as we saw with the nice crate suggestion, its pathetic to knowingly price something at nearly double what the market is regularly selling for simply because there is no system in place for handling the market.  You found a way to handle unusual overpay, so make up your mind on how to use the market.

 

If you decide that the market prices should not be used, then there should at least be a way to remove suggested prices from things that are clearly priced wrong. There is no reason to deceive people into thinking that an item is worth double.  The site's purpose is to help people know what an item is worth, and ignoring the market on items that are traded more there than via outpost is atrocious.

[LaughingLollipop]

why should it not be considered.

 

It should be taken in conjuction with key price and tax.

 

IE Item sells for $2, tax is 13%, seller gets $1.74 > check current key price > 1.74/(current key price) = Item value in keys * current key price in ref = Item value.

 

There is no logical reason to discount the use of additional well formated data tabulated by an independent source.

In fact, doing so lends itself to the impression that you are trying to manipulate prices for your own profit.

 

There are no shortage of people who try to buy botkillers or genuines for a ref or two because they can go flip them on the market for half a key of cash.

They will obviously vehemently oppose this move.

 

Market prices are more unbiased and objective than any other source. It records ALL sales. It records the price people pay directly in cash (not via bp check or implication or c/o or the value of any other commodity).

 

The market is a better way to price items than the current method.

 

More reliable recording of sales

More volume of sales can easily be shown (especially on high volume items)

Values are concrete.

No bias. The chart does not neglect to mention low sales or only hit on high ones. It records ALL sales.

[AwesomeMcCoolName]

why should it not be considered.

 

It should be taken in conjuction with key price and tax.

 

IE Item sells for $2, tax is 13%, seller gets $1.74 > check current key price > 1.74/(current key price) = Item value in keys * current key price in ref = Item value.

 

There is no logical reason to discount the use of additional well formated data tabulated by an independent source.

In fact, doing so lends itself to the impression that you are trying to manipulate prices for your own profit.

 

There are no shortage of people who try to buy botkillers or genuines for a ref or two because they can go flip them on the market for half a key of cash.

They will obviously vehemently oppose this move.

 

Market prices are more unbiased and objective than any other source. It records ALL sales. It records the price people pay directly in cash (not via bp check or implication or c/o or the value of any other commodity).

 

The market is a better way to price items than the current method.

 

More reliable recording of sales

More volume of sales can easily be shown (especially on high volume items)

Values are concrete.

No bias. The chart does not neglect to mention low sales or only hit on high ones. It records ALL sales.

The problem is the SCM is an entirely different market, and not really representative of the TF2 market. Saying the market should be used is like saying store purchases should be counted as they are all valid sales just the same. 

[LaughingLollipop]

Steam Community Market is merely a way for users to trade items person to person for wallet.

 

If you consider Paypal sales as valid proof why neglect to include market?

 

TF2's Store is not a person to person transfer or trade, it is a purchase made directly from Valve.

[Seminal Inhalation]

It should only be valid under very specific and certain conditions.

 

Take the Knifestorm Trophy Belt for example, it had 0 sales and its only sale was a market transaction and the price was based off of what the  average key selling price was of that day so it got a price. Fair enough.

 

 

But something as common say, a ghosts le inspecteur. There's lots of them for sale and to use market sales on that would be very inaccurate as they differ heavily from bp,tf prices and real life money mainly due to taxes and more funds needed to be added. It would be okay to support your proof but not be a part of your proof or a majority of the proof as it would drastically throw off the base price.

 

All in all, the community market is a pretty bad place for sales. It should not be valid proof, except for certain conditions as I have stated.

[Slocumruls]

It should only be valid under very specific and certain conditions.

 

Take the Knifestorm Trophy Belt for example, it had 0 sales and its only sale was a market transaction and the price was based off of what the  average key selling price was of that day so it got a price. Fair enough.

 

 

But something as common say, a ghosts le inspecteur. There's lots of them for sale and to use market sales on that would be very inaccurate as they differ heavily from bp,tf prices and real life money mainly due to taxes and more funds needed to be added. It would be okay to support your proof but not be a part of your proof or a majority of the proof as it would drastically throw off the base price.

 

All in all, the community market is a pretty bad place for sales. It should not be valid proof, except for certain conditions as I have stated.

I have tons of sales on the community market and it's a decent place to buy stuff as well. It requires a bit more math to actually make profit at it but it has the benefit of you not needing to be there or can be trading something else at the same time.

I'd argue my bp.tf graph (and cranwell's of course) easily demonstrates that the steam market can be used well as part of a profit trading strategy.

[AwesomeMcCoolName]

I have tons of sales on the community market and it's a decent place to buy stuff as well. It requires a bit more math to actually make profit at it but it has the benefit of you not needing to be there or can be trading something else at the same time.

I'd argue my bp.tf graph (and cranwell's of course) easily demonstrates that the steam market can be used well as part of a profit trading strategy.

It can only really be used profitably when someone screws up/doesn't know values. Sure there are some items which can be bought for less than you can sell them after you convert stuff around--but for the most part you're either breaking even or paying full price. 

[Seminal Inhalation]

I have tons of sales on the community market and it's a decent place to buy stuff as well. It requires a bit more math to actually make profit at it but it has the benefit of you not needing to be there or can be trading something else at the same time.

I'd argue my bp.tf graph (and cranwell's of course) easily demonstrates that the steam market can be used well as part of a profit trading strategy.

For suggestion proof, it's pretty horrid.

[1HP Hope Springs Eternal]

It can only really be used profitably when someone screws up/doesn't know values. Sure there are some items which can be bought for less than you can sell them after you convert stuff around--but for the most part you're either breaking even or paying full price. 

 

The sad part about that comment is that so many people "screw up/don't know values" because bp.tf refuses to use the market to price items that sell 10 times more often there than through outpost.  People that don't use the market are very likely to be closed-minded about this, but bp.tf is atrocious at pricing old and salvaged crates (series 50 anyone?).  They also do not keep up with botkiller prices well at all.

 

If you don't see something wrong with http://backpack.tf/vote/id/5305a49e4dd7b800668b4568 it will be hard to ever take your opinions seriously again.

[AwesomeMcCoolName]

The sad part about that comment is that so many people "screw up/don't know values" because bp.tf refuses to use the market to price items that sell 10 times more often there than through outpost.  People that don't use the market are very likely to be closed-minded about this, but bp.tf is atrocious at pricing old and salvaged crates (series 50 anyone?).  They also do not keep up with botkiller prices well at all.

 

If you don't see something wrong with http://backpack.tf/vote/id/5305a49e4dd7b800668b4568 it will be hard to ever take your opinions seriously again.

People "screwing up" is listing an unusual for $5....

 

Don't take me seriously, i honestly couldn't give two shits; but there are often huge discrepancies between the two markets. And when that happens the actual in-game market should take precedence. For example, I sold a NB Nano on the market for the equivalent of 19-20 keys after taxes. That same hat would be lucky to get 13 keys via paypal/in-game items. So, which is right, 19 or 13? *hint* the answer is 13.

[1HP Hope Springs Eternal]

People "screwing up" is listing an unusual for $5....

 

Don't take me seriously, i honestly couldn't give two shits; but there are often huge discrepancies between the two markets. And when that happens the actual in-game market should take precedence. For example, I sold a NB Nano on the market for the equivalent of 19-20 keys after taxes. That same hat would be lucky to get 13 keys via paypal/in-game items. So, which is right, 19 or 13? *hint* the answer is 13.

 

The graphs for unusuals are not going to sort by effect, so you wouldn't be making suggestions for unusuals using the market anyways.  I am not an unusual trader (not worth the time), but not including the community market in pricing things that it actually does a nice job with is bad.  I am not even that big of a fan for using it with botkiller's, but its true that enough sell without parts to make the median quite accurate.

[♠Derpeh♤]

I would say they should be used as proof however not for unusuals.

 

Unusuals in the scm have always generally sold for a lot higher than trades as most users who are unaware of outpost or trades buy unusuals from there as they dont want to deal with the learning curve and just opt to pay what's available through the scm. for example many times in the past when pricing unusuals there are multiple b/o of around 2-3 buds on outpost yet there are some sales in the 3-4 bud area (even when taking keys to be 2.3$)

[knavesmith]

I would say they should be used as proof however not for unusuals.

 

Unusuals in the scm have always generally sold for a lot higher than trades as most users who are unaware of outpost or trades buy unusuals from there as they dont want to deal with the learning curve and just opt to pay what's available through the scm. for example many times in the past when pricing unusuals there are multiple b/o of around 2-3 buds on outpost yet there are some sales in the 3-4 bud area (even when taking keys to be 2.3$)

Take the Knifestorm Trophy Belt for example, it had 0 sales and its only sale was a market transaction and the price was based off of what the average key selling price was of that day so it got a price. Fair enough.

[Slocumruls]

For unusuals SCM is horribly inaccurate and random. However, for most standard items, including kits, fabricators, and paint the SCM both has more volume of sales and a more accurate price point than outpost/bp.tf

[Christley </3 Peelz]

scm should only be able to back up the proof linked. ive done it several times. but not relying on it. if i would rely on it. most of my suggested hats would be .5 buds more than what they really are.

[SoA Jucchan42]

SCM should not be used as proof because it deals with steam funds, a currency that depends greatly on factors outside the TF2 economy. For example, Steam Store Sales greatly decrease the price of keys on the market because during those times the "value" of steam funds goes up. This is important because backpack.tf is a price guide that shows prices in terms of TF2 items, and in some cases USD (which is at least more reliable than steam funds because it doesn't involve taxes and is based on ref, which has a price on backpack.tf in USD, unlike keys.) The price of keys in ref and USD doesn't change during Store Sales, but its steam fund value does. Like mentioned in other posts, SCM is sometimes random, and especially for unusuals, varies greatly from what would be commonsense when trading with TF2 items. SCM prices simply don't follow the trends of the TF2 market well enough to be used to price items in ref or keys.

[puddingkip]

If you ask me, no. Due to the fees it's far too complicated, and in a community where most fail to read a single line this will only cause confusion and many, many icoorect uses of the scm on suggestions. It's also indirect trading, and could be seen as a quickbuy/sell thing. If you allow scm you should allow warehouse and scrap.tf as they provide the same service at a fee though with a different currency. 

 

SCM prices are also highly irrational and greatly affected by things like sales in the steam store.

[F CHARLIE]

If the trade price can not reflect scm than many items will mainly/only transact there and not in the trading environment. The scm is a competitor to in-game trading and it shows in many ways.

 

Its a cleaner form of trading. I dont have to add some guy and negotiate how much I am going to pay for a hat or mess around getting pure to trade with. The scm has taken transactions away from the in game trade system and steam has all but eliminated the chance of trading environments for other games such as Dota2 etc. since all of their items are for sale there. Tf2 would be the same except it started as a trading enviroment before the scm and therefore has an ingrained culture built for it.

 

 

Edit: Whether you like ut or not you are the gaurdians of in game trading. Think about, Steam/Valve prefer all transactions be done on the market. Not paypal or in game trading. Not only do they profit from it but it eliminates lots of other problems related to scammers/phishers.

[Mr Prince]

http://steamcommunity.com/market/listings/440/Unusual%20Dr%27s%20Dapper%20Topper?filter=cloud%209 

 

On the market for a week now.

 

Current price.

 

http://backpack.tf/stats/Unusual/Dr%27s%20Dapper%20Topper/Tradable/Craftable/58

 

Current price is very acurate *sarcasm*

[knavesmith]

http://steamcommunity.com/market/listings/440/Unusual%20Dr%27s%20Dapper%20Topper?filter=cloud%209

 

On the market for a week now.

 

Current price.

 

http://backpack.tf/stats/Unusual/Dr%27s%20Dapper%20Topper/Tradable/Craftable/58

 

Current price is very acurate *sarcasm*

Last Suggestion created 7 months ago.

[jjjon123]

If you want to have accurate market prices, then yes.

 

If you want to use only "in-game item trades" and thus niche items like botkillers, expired crates, and some vintage/genuines are left with stale outdated prices that bp.tf followers will continue to use as SCM dominates the market of those items, then no.

 

If you choose against SCM, ATLEAST find a way to acknowledge it for certain items. As more items released and added to SCM and older traders leave the scene, SCM will take more and more of the market share and the neccesity for bp.tf will slowly dwindle.

[Roller]

I would say, if the item is rarely on TF2Outpost / Backpack.tf / Trading Post / Bazaar.tf.. etc. (ex. Strange Filters), then I think the suggestion should include SCM sales too. However, if the item is always traded on the TF2Outpost / Backpack.tf / Trading Post / Bazaar.tf.. etc., I don't think SCM sales are needed. Of course, the price will based on how much refined metals are.

 

Therefore, it's a Yes to me.