The growing concern with the future of the site; the absence of the Site Dev and overall inactivity of Admins/Moderators.

[🔥Master Throne Crimson🔥]

Id obviously understand if there was some time frame as to when action is hopefully taken, if so at all, but no response on my reported site issues/ideas in 2 months just about now is making me concerned if i have been waiting this time unnecessarily and if i should've just personally contacted a Admin (Dev is out of the question, iirc, DM-ing the Dev is not recommended) or give site staff a ping to check my post(s) out, but... the latter sounds a bit over-the-top and pushy, doesn't it? So with that said, i give birth to this post to hopefully clarify my concerns, confusion etc.

 

Now, i understand that while the Dev is not at all active on the bp.tf Discord (atm? lets hope? idk been a mild year or so), atleast the Admins and Moderators are. However with the big plus of preservation and compactness of bringing awereness to an issue here on Forums in mind, you'd think there to be more Moderator (using this word here to group all site staff together as all of them do moderate the site afterall in their own respectable ways) activity here too, but well... There isn't. The only active Mod here is Zeus, and half of the time you meet him on the street called "STATUS UPDATES". Point is, even he don't know how to grab the attention of the Admins/Dev. Thats a big issue for me and i believe for others to agree on too (the ones, especially, who have been crying for bug fixes and overall site updates (me included) "to the Dev" in #bug-reports-and-ideas in bp.tf Discord, but with no result whatsoever. I for example pointed out various bugs, which are now so deep in the pit of the channel, it would be quite a pickle to find them, so how do i expect the Dev to find them? Well, in all honesty, i dont (in that sense even bugs should be reported on the forums more often, where they don't get swept away by the Sea that is a Discord channel lol)), as while the forum posts of problems people have with starting off trading etc. are easily aidable by community ambassadors, site/forum issues can only be fixed with the cooperation of Admins and/or Dev(s ;-;) of the site and its forum.

 

These are the 2 issues and ideas i made 2 months ago:

 

And this is the most recent one i made, also no responses from the staff, but not nearly as old:

This one isn't really directed towards the Admins or Dev, who are the only ones who can implement changes to the site. This one is more directed towards the Price Moderators for rule changes and/or clarifications.

 

 

Now, obviously a response by the staff is not the biggest of my concerns at the end of the day. Say i got a positive response from a staff member, who actually has any power to make site changes (one of the Admins and the Dev, Owners too ofc, but thats too extreme :'D) or a staff member who can let a Admin know of the issue. There is no use of the positive response, if it can't be implemented due to an inactive Dev. Now, both of the forum posts i made 2 months ago are simple enough changes, that the Admins can do it without the help of the Dev, so im not referring here to those. What im talking about is people reporting bugs and them just being flat out ignored and excused as best as possible.

 

TDLR; Aside from my concern of the lack of mod response, the inactivity of site staff here on the forums, my biggest one so far, when it comes to this topic, has always been the absence of the site Dev. Im honestly, while mainly curious, also quite a bit concerned for the future of this site, altho im sure the concern in such a dramatic manner is overreaction... Right? Well, im not sure anymore. But yeah, i want more communication, i wanna know more. Whats going on? Maybe like... How's the Dev's life affecting the time he can put in the development and maintainment? Or is there any plans to get a 2nd Dev on dis bish and is it even possible? Something of the sorts.

 

As a side note, what exactly is going on with the Price Moderators? Life? School? Work? Have mostly all of them grown up and have yet to officially retire and move on and they just tag along atm? Is there then a serious lack of younger Price Mods, who can dedicate more time into suggestions? Why are mostly all of the Price Mods so in-active and the backlog so huge? Offline's spam aside, the days where we rarely saw a suggestion up for over a month and a maximum of a month are long gone. Now the norm is open for 1 month and the maximum is a whopping 3 months! The same time a hats price, by the rules, literally goes out of date. There is also the issue of when you resuggest something, per a Price Moderators comment and there is literally nothing left to wait on and the suggestion is still not accepted and left open for days on end. Its very ironic, cause when i don't resuggest something within a few days, its a huge issue for mods and they give your suggestion away to someone else. Its quite crazy, really, and very concerning, yet again. More and more you see Veteran suggesters disappear, retire (and we can't really expect a change for suggesting to be more rewarding, if everything is kinda just... on hold) and since there is such a lack of Price Moderator activity, the newbies rarely get the concrete help of a Price Mod to get them into suggesting. That help is mostly given out by other suggesters and some just go completely the wrong way about it and scare the newbies away. Without newbies growing into Veteran suggesters, there can not be new potential Price Moderators, who are a bit younger, hence have a lot more time on their hands to deal with suggestions.

 

Things just have seemed to go downhill. Honestly... Its all a mess and i don't think im wrong when im saying this... Some changes are very overdue.

[LaughingLollipop]

Remember when you could actually view hats/effects by number in existence

 

Its been years

 

 

Broken features aside...

 

number of suggestions and voting looks to be at all time lows (probably because of the hilariously complex rules and nuances for pricing items)

 

I did a sample trending and found that in a 30 day period there were a whopping 42 people with an accepted unusual suggestion, half those only had 1

So you got a dozen people spamming, a dozen doing some 1 a week type activity and then onsies

 

Then you go check classies and the only thing you can see on non-unusuals is bot spam (both the buyers and the sellers)

 

Its not healthy

[Offline]

2 hours ago, Master Throne Crimson said:

Offline's spam aside,

 

xd

 

https://backpack.tf/suggestion/5d156c2a6780720917063d1f

the first halloween 2018 war paint suggestion that could be posted was on june 28 2019

 

halloween 2018 -> june 2019, that collection didnt even have a name in the database, they were just strange war paint (factory new), war paint (battle scarred), etc

 

it wasn't until Del Boy went to the site dev (without the concern of "its not recommended to DM the site dev") and asked for the paints to be updated in which the paints got added to the bp.tf database

in less than a week of him asking too, I know because I was in contact with Del Boy during that point

 

xmas 2019 paints were different, but i just wonder what was going on back then

[🔥Master Throne Crimson🔥]

7 minutes ago, LaughingLollipop said:

Remember when you could actually view hats/effects by number in existence

 

Its been years

 

WAIT, YOU COULD DO THAT?!??! Damn, i didn't even know that and now that i do know i kinda wish i remained in the dark about it, cause it just doesn't work...

[creepio]

Browse by effect and check out the average prices by effect. 

 

C.Peace Sign is god tier

[Payback]

Bug report made 15 months ago today https://backpack.tf/issue/5c8d5b50d3817237d9492afe

 

honestly just get used to it, moderators/admins that care about backpack.tf are few and far between

[Slam]

Come on man, in this time with quarantine making it so everyone has a TON of extra free time and nothing to do, surely the staff team is active on the foru-

 

 

[Chuck]

Dead trading site for a dead game sounds appropriate to me. In the end all we're doing here is necromancy (or necrophilia).

[TronJon]

I never got back into price suggesting because of how much the rules and regulations around it kept changing and now it just seems more like a chore to do (especially unusual suggestions) than something I could take a little time out of my day to do for fun.

It is quite sad to see the activity and development of the site go down by so much but I guess that how it be

[Vader]

Maybe they really love roleplaying as a tf2 dev? On that note, making suggestion is not beginner friendly. Whenever they saw the rules they just freak out and gave up.

[Xergoyf]

Oh boy. Where do I start.

 

The first thing I want to say is that there has always been a looming sense of pointlessness when suggesting improvements to the site. The site has always been light on devs; used to be two, now down to just one. There just isn't the manpower to implement everything the community wants, and it has never been that way. The difference between now and say, even 6 months to a year ago is the communication. I honestly didn't really realize how bad it had gotten until Crimson made this thread, as I realized that I can't remember the last time I saw Teeny, Fisk or other admin talk in the #bug-reports-and-ideas (previously #site-discussion) channel in the discord. It used to be that whenever a bug was discovered or a feature suggested, Teeny would be quick to offer work-arounds, counter-points and the admin side of the argument. That kind of admin/dev communication has disappeared in the last 6 months.

 

I understand life happens, people get burned out or lose interest over time. I don't hold anyone accountable personally for what has been going on recently. What I will say is that the site needs new blood to join the current staff. People that are currently passionate about backpack.tf and have enough time to dedicate to doing a quality job. This issue is not just centered in one group; Price Mods, Report Moderators, Developers, Admins and more all stand to gain from new hires. There are so many things that need to be worked on; fixing bugs, addressing the problem of overcutting scripts, adding incentives for price suggestors, keeping the suggestion backlog within reason, etc.  

 

I know myself, Crimson and many others come from a place of passion when we bring up issues like these. Backpack.tf is so much more than just a price checking website; it has an amazing in-game inventory viewer complete with history graph, an unique premium search database, price suggestions (which are addicting once you get into them), an amazing community and so much more. We want the site to continue to receive updates and continue to prosper, well into the future. Backpack.tf is the backbone of the TF2 economy, and without it, trading is just not the same. 

 

Now is a perfect time to look for new staff. Summer is here, and many people no longer have school consuming their time. Unfortunately I was unable to find an internship this summer due to COVID-19, but that gives me a ton of free time this summer that I can put to helping Backpack.tf in whatever way is needed. Need me to help brainstorm and theorycraft site changes before implementing them? Done. Need me to help with price suggestions? I'm down to apply for price moderator.  Need help on the dev side? I have experience with back-end development and databases if the site is willing to let me help. You don't have to pay me anything.

 

I am certainly not alone in my desire to help maintain the site, however I feel even requests to help fall on deaf ears. As Crimson stated, change is needed, and there is no better time to start than now.

 

- Xerg

 

[🔥Master Throne Crimson🔥]

4 hours ago, TronJon said:

how much the rules and regulations around it kept changing

Ironically, now in the age of controversial suggestions, id wanna see more clarifications to the rules lol. There is too much of a Mod siding with a point, that really just does not satisfy the idea of "the best possible choice that could've possibly been made" on a controversial suggestion. Overall it really is about changes, changes need to be made.

[🔥Master Throne Crimson🔥]

5 hours ago, Xergoyf said:

looming sense of pointlessness

 

5 hours ago, Xergoyf said:

used to be two

Holy shit, really?!?? I did not even know that, wow.

 

5 hours ago, Xergoyf said:

didn't really realize how bad it had gotten

Ngl, when i myself made this thread i had the weird moment of realization of "wait a minute... THE SITUATION REALLY IS BAD!"

 

5 hours ago, Xergoyf said:

communication

Soooo important! I sincerely hope bp.tf does not go down the same path Valve has.

 

5 hours ago, Xergoyf said:

You don't have to pay me anything.

Thats the beautie about bp.tf that its Staff should never take for granted; the love for the site, which results in voluntary work. Ofc Price Mods themselves etc. all do voluntary work essentially, they get paid so little, however as you said, yet again, perfectly

5 hours ago, Xergoyf said:

site needs new blood to join the current staff

We need to, in a group effort, really encourage new suggesters, Veteran Price Suggesters, Devs that are well-known in the community (manic :3) to contribute. We need to be more careful at how we welcome new suggesters, we need to make them really feel welcome, but that requires time and time is not what the current staff/the punch of retired Veteran Price Suggesters have, hence why new blood is so important. We need to give incentive for the retired Veterans who do have time, but just don't find suggesting worth it anymore or don't find its current rewarding fun and fresh. And if possible, we need to encourage eligible Veterans to become Price Moderators, however it be done (obviously here, people like Scourge are very much eligible, but him being on the front lines and KILLING the suggesting game is also extremely important for the site, he is of a lot more use keeping a lot more hats updated, than if he were a Mod). We need Price Moderators to stop discouraging Veteran Price Suggesters by continuously pointing out and not giving a break to some mistake(s) theive made in the past. We keep the site alive by voluntarily suggesting, we need more recognition (yes, there was a discussion about this some time ago, where Mods pointed out that they, too, don't get recognition they rather deserve from the community, but thats why the bond between a Price Mod and a Price Suggester is so important; we need to support each other, we need to give eachother the recognition we deserve, if noone else does. We all make mistakes, but we must aknowledge them and not give shit to people for them long after they were made (im guilty here too tho *coughfoamyandburninglilbiteycoughcough*). Now, i have a very good example for this... Im personally very broud of what ive achieved in the Suggesting community. Im top 10 in the contributors list, ive won a pricing event and gotten a mods choice prize in another. Ive participated in all pricing events ever hosted and been an official designated suggester all events but 1, where i was unofficial, the designated suggester switched. Ive been called the Team Captain multiple times in pricing events by fellow Price Mods. All dat shizz. And then what i get in return is, well... Stuff like this:

 

Context is me obviously disagreeing with a Mod and them not opening their mind at all, no matter what i said, which resulted to this screenshot. This particular mod's uncooperative and bigheaded behaviour discouraged me into becoming a colleague with someone this douchey. Do not forget however, that i still respect him for the work he has done for the site. Anyway, what i do known is that im not comfortable with trying out Price Moderator, cause i feel like the pressure of making a mistake so early into being a Mod will be very high. Definitely a very good job, Erik and Shuffle, in that regard. But even if i was eligible for a position as a Price Moderator, i still enjoy the fact that i can suggest way more and wanna remain suggesting even tho i don't do that much these days; ive just grown very lazy. Hopefully that laziness goes away, afterall aren't lazy suggestions better than being too lazy to make suggestions at all?

 

To continue; We need to seriously, in a group effort (community ambassadors, moderators and admins) notify the site Owners (pretty sure without their cooperation, hiring a Dev or making changes so that more voluntary code work could be done, is not possible), that there seriously IS need for a new Dev.

[Markt3]

Welp, I think that the fact that I, as someone who hasn't been around for more than a year, didn't know that there were other mods other than Zeus and Erik till now says a lot

[Teeny Tiny Cat]

I've definitely been slacking big time, and the reality is just that... I'm a nurse and we're in a pandemic, and that has to be my priority at the moment. It's not that I have no time, more that I just don't have energy. It's taking a lot out of me to be working in the climate that I am right now, and for my own mental health I gotta use my off time to relax. It sucks and I'm sorry that it has a detrimental effect on the site. The mods are doing a fantastic job at keeping the ship afloat without me, but maybe I need to designate someone to actually take on my role in a more official way while I'm not able to commit. Keep the comments coming, I am reading and I will think on them all.

[Offline]

 

The fact that a moderator of this website we share has the gall to say this to anybody disgusts me

 

I have my bad behavior antics too but imagine being a new suggester and having moderators talk down to you like this

 

Imagine having one wrong opinion and staff of this website feels that they need to speak to you like this to deal with it

 

Everyone can slip up and everyone has done things they may regret, and admittedly I have quite a foul mouth myself, but these small things are just discouraging

 

I remember some time ago I saw a price moderator in an MvM server and I said something along the lines of “now accept my suggestions please thanks xd” then the price moderator closed a lot of my lazy suggestions and gave them away to another user. Yeah, I deserved that with the lazy suggestions, but I’m used to it - If that happened to someone else that might make them angry enough to quit. And after that moment, I can’t help but feel that my suggestions or I, as a user, am looked at in a bad light. That was maybe a year or two ago, and I have since received numerous praises for the quality and effort but into my suggestions, but it’s the bad moments that people remember the most. 

 

Maybe this particular comment is less about the inactivity of the staff and more about a different topic, but if the overall goal and purpose of this thread is to encourage the longevity of backpack.tf, then as an avid backpack.tf user, I feel this has to be included and considered. 

[Teeny Tiny Cat]

In fairness to Mindacos, that is taken out of context and he roasts people in what he feels is a joking way which is part of the way the price mods and suggesters speak to each other in general. You guys have all been on this site a long time working together, many of you were suggesters together. We all give each other shit, and I think the mods who do that believe they are doing so in a mostly affectionate way. Please know that they absolutely do appreciate the work that you guys all put in. If you aren't aware of that, then that is their failing and my failing. You guys keep the site going more than we do.

 

I've also been hassling the dev for a long time to get regular suggesters free premium, so have the price mods. We do appreciate what you do and we do think you deserve to be rewarded for it. I'm sorry we haven't made sure that you know that, it's just a difficult position for us too when we think you deserve these things but can't really do much about not having an active developer to implement them. That's why we keep trying to run price events when we can, so at least we have some prizes we can give out to thank people and stuff.

[HarryG]

The reality is that the staff doesn’t appreciate how much work the regular users contribute due to the fact that the staff team is basically just a clique. The suggesters are the ones who keep the site afloat and they have to pay the site to get premium to keep doing free labor to keep the site running? The fact that that was ever how it worked is astounding (although to be fair the fact that staff replied to this topic at all seeing as it came from a big suggester and ignored a similar topic I started a few weeks ago shows they at least recognize their dependence on suggesters) . The rudeness of staff members towards new or aspiring users is also a recurring theme and discourages people who might want to take a more active role in helping the site. If it were me, I would consider an outside hire to help manage things especially in this trying time to keep the community afloat.

 

I also recognize that in saying these things the staff will try to avoid replying as with my last topic in order to avoid controversy upon themselves, as is the norm recently around here.

[Slam]

The last time the "community moderators" were even remotely active on the forums:

 

Derpy: October 2019

Easy Peasy: February 2020

Ow Ow: He has 4 Forum posts total, do you really think he cares about the forums?

Pudding: January 2020

Sco0t: October 2019, with only 10 forum posts.

 

And of that, 4 of those moderators never actively engaged with the forums in general. The closest is Lemon, but even then, he's got 150ish posts over the course of 4 years... I've got more than that in 9 months and I don't even post as often as I could. They all applied to be Discord mods, which is probably why we never hear from any of them on this site anymore.

 

So NONE of the 5 standing community moderators uses the forums, this is probably why Zeus, a price mod, is the one having to respond to people in the Suggestions subforum. But they're all active in the Discord. I get it. It's way easier to just post dank memes and respond with emoji's to random shit in a Discord server, but I know for a fact from applying for that position (and being denied for a pretty solid reason) that not all community moderators are meant solely for Discord duty, some of them must be dedicated to the forums, and yet you don't see them ever posting and engaging with the community in the forums. Actual moderation? Maybe, I'm sure there's at least some rule-breaking threads and posts that have been deleted by some of them, but they don't even add reactions to anything, which takes 5 seconds, so it's like they don't even go onto the forums anymore. And all of them haven't done anything on the forums since well before Quarantine even began. Unless you're working healthcare or had to pick up slack for laid off workers, chances are you had a ton of free time on your plate because of quarantine, meaning at least some of these mods should have had extra time to engage in the forums at least a little bit. 

 

Oh wait, this thread which is a total meme with literally nothing to do with backpack.tf, has been sitting totally open in the wrong subforum for 6 months now, further showing that staff either don't view the forum at all, or just don't care about keeping threads to where they belong.

 

The more I look into this, the more I just see problems that need to be addressed and changed. It's the staff team at backpack.tf as a whole that is the problem, it isn't any individual person's burden. If all the staff really are busy and there's a demand for more, then just say so, put out word that the team is looking for new faces, and you'll get new applicants. But there's only been 2 applications, both denied, in the past 8+ months.

 

9 minutes ago, Teeny Tiny Cat said:

In fairness to Mindacos, that is taken out of context and he roasts people in what he feels is a joking way which is part of the way the price mods and suggesters speak to each other in general. You guys have all been on this site a long time working together, many of you were suggesters together. We all give each other shit, and I think the mods who do that believe they are doing so in a mostly affectionate way.

 

Yes, because in that example Mindacos clearly seems like he's being affectionate and wants to make out with Crimson. His chat doesn't come on as jokes, his comments feel more genuine and snobby, his 2nd comment in that screencap feels almost provocative. Either way, "We all give each other shit" shouldn't be a valid reasoning for any member of the staff team behaving in a way that actively puts others down. It's no way to behave when in such a position. Of course, what would I know about behaving, I got my community mod application denied for a couple of short mutes on the Discord for a very obvious joke about the code leak, while others that joked got off freely, and a shitty 9/11 joke.

[Teeny Tiny Cat]

1 minute ago, mikey boi said:

Yes, because in that example Mindacos clearly seems like he's being affectionate and wants to make out with Crimson. His chat doesn't come on as jokes, his comments feel more genuine and snobby, his 2nd comment in that screencap feels almost provocative. Either way, "We all give each other shit" shouldn't be a valid reasoning for any member of the staff team behaving in a way that actively puts others down. It's no way to behave when in such a position. Of course, what would I know about behaving, I got my community mod application denied for a couple of short mutes on the Discord for a very obvious joke about the code leak, while others that joked got off freely, and a shitty 9/11 joke.

 

As I said, it's a bit out of context to newcomers. But as I also said, if people feel like mods don't appreciate them then that is a failing in the way the mods are interacting with users, you are absolutely correct. 

[🔥Master Throne Crimson🔥]

42 minutes ago, Teeny Tiny Cat said:

I'm a nurse and we're in a pandemic

Youre ofc without a doubt an very rare exception, keep up the good work! Besides, you aswell fit in the

6 hours ago, Xergoyf said:

I understand life happens, people get burned out or lose interest over time. I don't hold anyone accountable personally for what has been going on recently. What I will say is that the site needs new blood to join the current staff.

 

15 minutes ago, Teeny Tiny Cat said:

that is taken out of context

The screenshot itself, yes, but i provided context below it. I ain't lookin for a revolution against a Price Mod XD Im just bringing out another point.

[HarryG]

7 minutes ago, mikey boi said:

 

 

 

Yes, because in that example Mindacos clearly seems like he's being affectionate and wants to make out with Crimson. His chat doesn't come on as jokes, his comments feel more genuine and snobby, his 2nd comment in that screencap feels almost provocative. Either way, "We all give each other shit" shouldn't be a valid reasoning for any member of the staff team behaving in a way that actively puts others down. It's no way to behave when in such a position. Of course, what would I know about behaving, I got my community mod application denied for a couple of short mutes on the Discord for a very obvious joke about the code leak, while others that joked got off freely, and a shitty 9/11 joke.

This is a good point. The staff team is basically like a clique; if you don’t have the same snobby sense of humor and everything else you don’t have a chance of remaining in this community much less being able to contribute anything meaningful. This is exactly what I’m talking about. 

 

 

I’d also like to add that mentioning that one is a “nurse in a pandemic” is kind of sidetracking from the issue at hand. If somebody can’t handle their responsibilities maybe somebody else should start fulfilling those responsibilities as opposed to excuses being made

[🔥Master Throne Crimson🔥]

40 minutes ago, Offline said:

Imagine having one wrong opinion

and seriously believing you have a valid point, to add on.

[🔥Master Throne Crimson🔥]

@mikey boi Your points perfectly bring out (even if partly) the reason of the existence of the "hello, its been a few months since i came here, are the forums still dead?" in status updates lol

[Payback]

Issues I’ve seen, I’ll try to keep it as compact as possible -

 

1. Price moderator inactivity (11 price mods can’t handle a record low of incoming suggestions)

 

2. Report moderator inactivity, not as obvious, but it has taken two weeks for simple ‘trading with scammers’ reports to get handled

 

3. dev activity, been a thing for years now. What was the point of geel buying backpack if the intent was to just let it die a slow death?

 

4. lack of incentives for price suggesting, I suggested 1500 hats and got nothing for it besides some badge on my profile. I got told multiple times I would never be fit for mod, paid for premium every month I suggested, and even posted 30+ links of easy-accept suggestions to mods every time the backlog became ridiculous. There was no appreciation, no consistency, and no ‘end goal’ in mind. 
 

I stated my concerns about this to a mod and was literally told this 

https://imgur.com/a/8ydTrD3

1 and 3 are cosmetic changes that no one cares about for the time required to get there...2 is completely irrelevant, iirc you have to suggest 10 things to get 1 listing, and 5 is a series of events that have slowly been dying off due to having no other incentives.

 

5. lack of site updates, this one is really bothersome...as offline mentioned earlier, 2018 war paints weren’t added into the system until June 2019...that’s a whole nine months after the update in which they were released, in that time literally every sale was outdated...but mods allowed suggestions on them despite them no longer being valid. 

joining the steam group on the site won’t give you a profile badge, that’s been broken for months now. 
 

6. standards for moderators, how do admins possibly expect to get new moderators into the staff team when every single action taken is judged to the tenth degree. Wonder why there’s been one new price mod in the last two years? 
 

7. Rudeness of staff members... I don’t care if you’re ‘trolling’ or ‘joking’, telling someone explicitly that they will never be mod (especially considering that person is one of the most active suggesters left on your dying site) is unfathomable to me. 

8. lack of forums, I have no idea what the point of these forums are anymore. Are they just used to be one giant archive of a time long past? I can’t remember the last time a staff member excluding zeus posted here that wasn’t explicitly baited into posting here like this post has done.

 

 

Meanwhile stuff like this 

https://backpack.tf/suggestion/5e421aed0f572134793dffe3

I have asked to be reverted four times now because it is literally the most obvious tradeback in the world and no one seems to care enough to click the button. 
 

Xergoyf put it better than I ever could, there seems to be this feeling of hopelessness surrounding the future of the site. I wish it could change someday, but I really doubt it will. Please mods, change my mind