ϟTheoϟ Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 Is there any reason why key buyers and sellers all use paypal over venmo? I'm sure that paypal has some benefits, but as a key seller I'm not comfortable selling any of my keys through paypal because I know that I could be hit with a chargeback scam. To my knowledge (maybe I'm wrong about this) it isn't possible to do a chargeback scam through venmo. Wouldn't be venmo be a lot safer from a seller's perspective? In my experience, I've never had anything bad happen with venmo. Is there something I'm missing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norah Posted June 2, 2020 Share Posted June 2, 2020 PayPal has always been the done thing, I guess. If i'm not wrong Venmo is US-only too, a lot of traders are non-American so you'd be limiting yourself by sticking to it. Cashapp I think is a bit more spread but, as it stands PayPal is the most convenient way for cash trades outside of a direct bank transfer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pollen Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 As of writing this, Paypal has actually stopped supporting the use of it's service for in-game items. This means that Paypal related cash trading is done at your own risk, and you have absolutely no seller protection. "Eligible categories of intangible goods such as travel tickets, tickets for an event, online education & tutorial services, consulting services, software development and other digital services will be covered under the expanded Seller Protection. However, Digital Goods will not be covered under the Seller Protection Policy." Quote from Q3 of Paypal's seller protection privacy (found here: https://www.paypal.com/in/webapps/mpp/paypal-seller-protection/faq). As far as I am concerned cash trading with Paypal should always have been and will continue to be with trusted users only. Similarly Paypal has stopped support with all of the largest cashout sites for CS:GO/TF2/Dota 2. https://forums.backpack.tf/topic/74797-paypal-is-no-longer-working-with-sites-that-sell-tf2csgorustdota2-items/?tab=comments#comment-637658 Pretty sure this happened a while ago(a few months, it was pretty big news for CS:GO then), only just now starting to see the effects in TF2. TL:DR from CEO of Skinbaron: Paypal won't be available on SkinBaron in the near future. Paypal doesn't want any sellers (non-publishers) of ingame currency or ingame items as their clients. Anyone with a balance on SkinBaron who can't use our SEPA-cashout (bank-transfer), please contact [email protected] and we will find a custom solution together. Extended Explanation for those who care: "It took us one week to get a statement from Paypal about why our account has been frozen. Our account manager finally stated that Paypal US took a global(!) decision, to stop working with individuals, businesses and marketplaces that buy / sell ingame currency and ingame items. This doesn't affect only CS:GO but any ingame currency and item, like WoW Gold, Fifa Coins, Skins, etc...They told us that game keys are fine right now. There is nothing in their TOS about this yet, we were told it will be added, but the decision to close the accounts had to be taken in a hurry. We tried to verify it and found that most major sites in the business of digital currencies already ceased to offer paypal. There are many marketplaces and sites that buy and sell CS:GO skins that still offer paypal right now, but we were told that Paypal will shut all of these accounts within the next weeks. The reason that paypal stated to us was that ingame currencies and items are used for criminal purposes like money laundering and credit card / payment-fraud. We strongly disagree with this regarding SkinBaron, because we take a lot of measures to protect our clients and even the clients of paypal with strict AML ("anti money laundering") and KYC ("know your customer") routines, all compliant with german legislation. Paypal said that they understand this, but the decision had to be made because the industry of third party currency and item sellers did not adhere to these standards and they don't differentiate as of now. Of course we hope that this decision will be reviewed in the future. Until then we are working on providing our international clients with more cashout methods like bitcoin, international bank transfer and skrill. Please send us feedback on which cashout option you would like to have. Please understand that SkinBaron takes the time to verify the legality and compliance with AML before we introduce any new payment option, so it will take at least some weeks until more payment method will be online. A word of warning: Paypal froze our account with a substantial sum in it without prior notification. They reserve the right to hold the money for 180 days. This is not a problem for SkinBaron or our clients, we keep the majority of user's funds in a german bank account and have already replenished the now frozen paypal money from the bank account where we keep the company's money. I just want to note that any business that keeps the majority of their funds in their paypal account or has Paypal as their primary payment option is in immediate danger of going out of business. This is not only a PSA for the users that have a cash or skin balance on such sites, but also to the owners of these sites: move the money to your bank / crypto account where it is safe. Paypal won't care and won't help after they find and close your account. In my opinion individual traders are safe. Paypal probably doesn't have the means to see what your transactions are for. So as long as noone reports an individual trader, he should be fine. I would still advise to keep the paypal balance low for any cash traders that use paypal. I'm here to answer any questions. Hannes Scholz CEO SkinBaron GmbH" TL:DR Paypal doesn't support the sales of in-game items, you have no sellers protection. Trading with Paypal runs a risk of having your Paypal account frozen and potentially closed permanently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pollen Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 So yeah, Paypal doesn't want our money, which they probably weren't getting anyways(since almost everyone was just going through Friends & Family to circumvent taxes). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flamadin Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 Paypal gets shit from credit card companies and national governments, I'm sure. Marketplace.tf continues to work with them just fine, possibly because they only deal in TF2 items. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazyy Cow Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 1 hour ago, Flamadin said: Paypal gets shit from credit card companies and national governments, I'm sure. Marketplace.tf continues to work with them just fine, possibly because they only deal in TF2 items. Theyve done dota items Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Alex Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 3 hours ago, ϟTheoϟ said: (maybe I'm wrong about this) it isn't possible to do a chargeback scam through venmo I've never used Venmo but I'm sure chargebacks are quite possible, same as in PayPal, see geel's post for more info. Chargeback by definition is an "external" thing, not a Venmo/PayPal dispute, so Venmo/PayPal don't have a choice but to get the missing money from you. In fact, if you google, Venmo appears to popular with chargeback scammers, see e.g. https://www.thebalance.com/venmo-scams-315823 1 hour ago, ⇄ | Pollen said: As of writing this, Paypal has actually stopped supporting the use of it's service for in-game items. This means that Paypal related cash trading is done at your own risk, and you have absolutely no seller protection. Uh ... afaik most PayPal traders are using Friends and Family and so were outside of any Seller Protection anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ϟTheoϟ Posted June 3, 2020 Author Share Posted June 3, 2020 1 hour ago, D.Alex said: I've never used Venmo but I'm sure chargebacks are quite possible, same as in PayPal, see geel's post for more info. Chargeback by definition is an "external" thing, not a Venmo/PayPal dispute, so Venmo/PayPal don't have a choice but to get the missing money from you. In fact, if you google, Venmo appears to popular with chargeback scammers, see e.g. https://www.thebalance.com/venmo-scams-315823 According to this - https://help.venmo.com/hc/en-us/articles/235171088-Cancel-Payment It is not possible to "cancel" a payment made to a user. They say that "Venmo Support cannot reverse a payment at the sender's request." "Venmo Support can only reverse a payment if the recipient gives their explicit permission, their account is in good standing, and they still have the funds available in their Venmo account." To me it seems like a chargeback scam isn't possible, and this was updated two hours ago, but maybe I'm wrong about this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Alex Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 Well, I've tried to emphasize the difference between chargebacks and disputes/claims but apparently I failed ... Let's try the official lingo: What is the difference between a chargeback and a PayPal claim? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ϟTheoϟ Posted June 3, 2020 Author Share Posted June 3, 2020 1 hour ago, D.Alex said: Well, I've tried to emphasize the difference between chargebacks and disputes/claims but apparently I failed ... Let's try the official lingo: What is the difference between a chargeback and a PayPal claim? Yeah it could be that I'm confused, but this just confuses me even more - I was talking about Venmo's policy and you linked me to Paypal's policy - why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Alex Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 30 minutes ago, ϟTheoϟ said: I was talking about Venmo's policy and you linked me to Paypal's policy Because it's the same principle (Venmo is owned by PayPal, by the way): What you're talking about is what user is not allowed to do using Venmo interface: to cancel/reverse the payment from within Venmo. Chargeback is something different: the person is calling their credit card company and saying "hey, I don't recognize this charge from Venmo, please give me my money back". Credit card reverses payment to Venmo, then Venmo takes the money from your account. Venmo does not mention this scenario on their help pages because they prohibit you from use their service for business-like payments anyway. Read https://help.venmo.com/hc/en-us/articles/217532097-Can-I-use-Venmo-to-buy-or-sell-merchandise-goods-or-services- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josik Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 Almost all online payment methods can get hit with the refund scam. (paypal , venmo , skrill, yadda yadda). The best way to be safe Is crypto (btc , eth , ltc) and then if you are USA you have zelle cashapp and I maybe a couple more options but only for people in Usa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pollen Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 14 hours ago, D.Alex said: Uh ... afaik most PayPal traders are using Friends and Family and so were outside of any Seller Protection anyway. Well, it's entirely possible someone who doesn't like you attempt to weasel their way into a Paypal transaction by offering full price(with trust, large bp, etc.) and simply report them to Paypal themselves... It's clear they have and will lock and ban accounts over this. I would definitely not recommend to do Paypal transactions on an account with a lot of savings, you're running a huge risk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creepio Posted June 3, 2020 Share Posted June 3, 2020 Paypal and Venmo are partnered. Venmo does not condone business deals of any kind unless you are an approved business and will offer little to no assistance if the transaction is disputed. I'd have to think their view on virtual items is comparable to paypal. I'm surprised more people don't use Zelle. It's supported by most banks and I'm pretty sure you're 100% protected from disputes. The only issues that can come up is if one party isn't enrolled, which I believe creates a processing period in which the transaction can be cancelled at any time. Of course, if it is a "pay first" virtual item exchange, the item should be retained until payment clears anyways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josik Posted June 4, 2020 Share Posted June 4, 2020 9 hours ago, creepio said: Paypal and Venmo are partnered. Venmo does not condone business deals of any kind unless you are an approved business and will offer little to no assistance if the transaction is disputed. I'd have to think their view on virtual items is comparable to paypal. I'm surprised more people don't use Zelle. It's supported by most banks and I'm pretty sure you're 100% protected from disputes. The only issues that can come up is if one party isn't enrolled, which I believe creates a processing period in which the transaction can be cancelled at any time. Of course, if it is a "pay first" virtual item exchange, the item should be retained until payment clears anyways. I know of a lot of people that use Zelle and yeah payment cant be disputed, the problem is Zelle is only for Usa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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