Heated Bread Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Apologies if this is in the wrong section. I couldn't quite figure out where it should go. So I was just on the Harpoon Gaming trade server and one of the mods/admins/whatever there would not shut up about asking if anyone wanted to play tic tac toe with him for item wagers (the map has a built-in tic tac toe board in the donor lounge). So then we got into a conversation about how that game is so simple that if you go first, you can always either win or tie the game. Even if you go 2nd, as long as you play right, you can always at least force a tie. His only counter-argument was that he'd won a ton of stuff doing it. Then it dawned on me: that was the whole point. Since tic tac toe is a very simple game to master, he can always tie at the very worst. In other words, he knew there was never any risk of him losing. Guaranteed. Wikipedia talks all about it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tic_tac_toe So my question is would that be considered scamming? The Harpoon Gaming community's defining characteristic is that they supposedly have zero tolerance for sharking and scamming. For such a community, this seems very questionable. Even if you wouldn't call it an outright scam, what are your thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyrous Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Tic tac toe is a scam because it turns your butthole from x to o Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dabaers Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Not a scam but just a lame attempt to give people hope while they take their shit. If you are dumb to fall for it, then its your fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heated Bread Posted February 11, 2014 Author Share Posted February 11, 2014 If you are dumb to fall for it, then its your fault. That's the same thing that people often say about sharking... hell some people even say that about phishing victims and scamming victims... I know I've said it. I don't condone any of those practices, but I often find myself getting mad at the victims for being stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dabaers Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Sharking = your own damn fault. Phishing = 75% your fault. Most attempts go along with an add or on your outpost trade and say "My friend cant add you, here is his profile + Phishing link". Don't be stupid and click them Scamming = Too many ways to scam. Define it further. Quickswitching is your fault, look before you trade. Real $$ scams, 50% your fault. Look into the person more and try to get them to go first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanny Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Hahahaha I got banned from this server last night because I kept making a guy laugh with the holiday punch in the donor room and he kept bitching about it. He shortly after lost 2 keys from Tic-Tac-Toe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draco Blaze Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Might I direct you to this lovely comic on how to tie or win Tic-Tac-Toe from either "X" or "O" : http://xkcd.com/832/ Mathematical game. How do you scam with math? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dabaers Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 X has a much better chance at winning, that's why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heated Bread Posted February 11, 2014 Author Share Posted February 11, 2014 Might I direct you to this lovely comic on how to tie or win Tic-Tac-Toe from either "X" or "O" : http://xkcd.com/832/ Mathematical game. How do you scam with math? Because there's no chance of losing any items if you've figured out the game. You can only either gain items or tie. Since the game is so incredibly simple to "solve" so that you can never lose, I'm willing to bet that the only people who are losing are little kids who haven't figured that out yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julia Gillard the Honest Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 It's not a scam unless if someone playing it actually says to you, "You have a chance of winning." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draco Blaze Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Because there's no chance of losing any items if you've figured out the game. You can only either gain items or tie. Since the game is so incredibly simple to "solve" so that you can never lose, I'm willing to bet that the only people who are losing are little kids who haven't figured that out yet. Alright. That makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draco Blaze Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 X has a much better chance at winning, that's why. By that logic, gambling is scamming. Casinos always have a better chance of winning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heated Bread Posted February 11, 2014 Author Share Posted February 11, 2014 It's not a scam unless if someone playing it actually says to you, "You have a chance of winning." Maybe they don't even have to say that for it to be a scam. I mean... isn't that already implied by going through with the ruse of having both parties place a wager? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julia Gillard the Honest Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Isn't that already implied when you're both placing a wager? I offer you the following: Give me a key. You can either tie in a game and have it back or I can win and get to keep the key. That's not really a scam unless if I actually say to you that it's possible for you to win. It's definitely abusing ignorance similarly to sharking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heated Bread Posted February 11, 2014 Author Share Posted February 11, 2014 I offer you the following: Give me a key. You can either tie in a game and have it back or I can win and get to keep the key. That's not really a scam unless if I actually say to you that it's possible for you to win. It's definitely abusing ignorance similarly to sharking. First, I edited my post. Please re-read it. Second, I think you missed the point, because your example does not involve BOTH parties placing a wager. There's no point to both people placing a wager unless both of them have a chance to win, right? Other than for the purpose of deception, of course (giving someone the impression that they could win). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julia Gillard the Honest Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 First, I edited my post. Please re-read it. Second, I think you missed the point, because your example does not involve BOTH parties placing a wager. There's no point to both people placing a wager unless both of them have a chance to win, right? Other than for the purpose of deception, of course (giving someone the impression that they could win). Very well, let me make you the following offer: We play this game. If I win, you give me a key. If you win, I give you a key. If we tie then we don't exchange items. There's no scam if someone says something like that. Yes it's abusing the ignorance of people but it's not scamming unless if I actually mislead you somehow. With the above wording, I'm not directly suggesting that it's possible for you to win. How other people interpret that, I can argue, isn't my cause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heated Bread Posted February 11, 2014 Author Share Posted February 11, 2014 Very well, let me make you the following offer: We play this game. If I win, you give me a key. If you win, I give you a key. If we tie then we don't exchange items. There's no scam if someone says something like that. Yes it's abusing the ignorance of people but it's not scamming unless if I actually mislead you somehow. With the above wording, I'm not suggesting that it's possible for you to win. But you are! Your words: "If you win, I give you a key." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julia Gillard the Honest Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Here's another proposal: If the Moon is made out of cheese then I will give you a key. If it's not then you will give me a key. That's not a scam but you'd be pretty silly to take that offer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heated Bread Posted February 11, 2014 Author Share Posted February 11, 2014 Here's another proposal: If the Moon is made out of cheese then I will give you a key. If it's not then you will give me a key. That's not a scam but you'd be pretty silly to take that offer. Consider the possibility that I might be ignorant of the actual composition of the moon and have heard stories about it being made of cheese while you are fully aware that it is not. If I take that bet and lose, and you take your winnings, does that not prove that you took advantage of me? You had knowledge that I did not and you used it for personal gain from my loss. That sure sounds a hell of a lot like sharking to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julia Gillard the Honest Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Consider the possibility that I might be ignorant of the actual composition of the moon and have heard stories about it being made of cheese while you are fully aware that it is not. If I take that bet and lose, and you take your winnings, does that not prove that you took advantage of me? Exactly. I abused your ignorance just like a shark or profit-trader. However, I didn't directly lie or promise you something that I wouldn't deliver. I completely held my part of the agreement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heated Bread Posted February 11, 2014 Author Share Posted February 11, 2014 Exactly. I abused your ignorance just like a shark or profit-trader. However, I didn't directly lie or promise you something that I wouldn't deliver. I completely held my part of the agreement. Well I think we may have just established at the very least that given their very vocal stance against sharks, the owner(s) and staff of Harpoon Gaming may be hypocrites for building this thing into their map and allowing people to use it for betting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julia Gillard the Honest Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Well I think we may have just established at the very least that given their very vocal stance against sharks, the owner(s) and staff of Harpoon Gaming may be hypocrites for building this thing into their map and allowing people to use it for betting. It is their server so you can't punish them. The best that you can really do is try to raise awareness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heated Bread Posted February 11, 2014 Author Share Posted February 11, 2014 It is their server so you can't punish them. The best that you can really do is try to raise awareness. I really don't know what else I can do beyond having posted this thread. I mean, there's nothing I can do if people choose to ignore it, and the vast majority of players probably never read these forums anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knavesmith Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Consider the possibility that I might be ignorant of the actual composition of the moon and have heard stories about it being made of cheese while you are fully aware that it is not. If I take that bet and lose, and you take your winnings, does that not prove that you took advantage of me? You had knowledge that I did not and you used it for personal gain from my loss. That sure sounds a hell of a lot like sharking to me. Sharking involves manipulation of the victim to gain profit off of them. This scenario does not involve manipulation of any sort. Imagine this: I know how to win a game because I know the secret, "X" of how to beat it. You don't know the secret, "X" of the same game. I challenge you to try to beat me at said game. You agree to the challenge (This is important) We settle on a wager of "Y." Whoever wins, gets the pot. Since I know the secret, "X," I can easily win, while you have a hard time figuring out how to win, therefore losing your wager. Basically, you're saying an Advanced player winning a bet against a Beginner player is scamming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julia Gillard the Honest Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Sharking involves manipulation of the victim to gain profit off of them. This scenario does not involve manipulation of any sort. That's a restricted version of Outpost's definition. If someone opened an unusual TC right here and I offered a key that, which he agreed to (because he's new), then I'm not sharking with your definition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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