Multiple buy orders on same item using multiple accounts

[Julia]

OKAY. So this has been a non-issue for some time. I'm seeing it pop up in different places somewhat frequently now: bots owned by the same person creating listings for the same item on more than one of their bots at the same value.

 

Okay, that's kind of a mouth-full. So here's an example:

 

The first 4 bots in this screenshot are all being ran by the same person.

 

Here are their profiles:

https://backpack.tf/u/76561198313727931

https://backpack.tf/u/76561198314089981

https://backpack.tf/u/76561198317215449

https://backpack.tf/u/76561198326616252

 

And here's a link to that page:

https://backpack.tf/classifieds?item=Festive%20Backburner&quality=6&tradable=1&craftable=1&australium=-1&killstreak_tier=0

 

This is just one instance. You can find this in numerous places.

 

In the rules there's nothing clear against these sort of listings and I don't really see it being addressed anywhere. One person can clog up the 10 highest buy orders if they wanted, greatly increasing their likelihood of a purchase over other buyers. I don't know if this is being done intentionally or not, but it's just a bit unfair to other buyers.

 

Great, thanks.

[Wsdea]

I agree totally, but is there anything that can be done ? Competition is really high if you want to invest in a bot. 

[Mucy]

I'll be honest, that's a dick move.

But there's pros and cons speaking for and against using multiple bots.

 

Pros:

- Higher likelihood of buying items

- Higher potential profit

- you don't have to move items from bot account to bot account

 

Cons:

- Other buyers don't have a chance at buying items, only favors the owner of the bots and leads to the risk of one person controlling an entire market for an item

- could hurt low tier trading even more if this becomes the norm and can make it unprofitable all together

- Costs of running multiple bots (unless you script them yourself) can really be costly.

 

I dunno how to feel about it but I don't like the risks it brings.

Make your own opinion peeps.

[www.]

Plain and simple, I think it is the responsibility of bot owners to ensure that they're not violating markets like the example above. The site has a safeguard to block individual accounts from doing this, multiple accounts should not be a workaround.

[TheGlenCoco]

2 hours ago, Captain Big-Balls said:

The site has a safeguard to block individual accounts from doing this, multiple accounts should not be a workaround.

 

Do you mean that listings get folded?

And yes, this is allowed. He could make those accounts look differently and you wouldn't notice he's doing that.

 

[humann]

And what about those fuckin bots removing and relising the same buy order over and over,  every 15 minutes, so all the guys with blank alerts can see a shit because of the spam.

[Teeny Tiny Cat]

1 hour ago, TheGlenCoco said:

And yes, this is allowed. He could make those accounts look differently and you wouldn't notice he's doing that.

 

This is the issue here, really. It's all well and good enforcing this is people have bot.tf bots or run their own bots honestly, but how would we police it if people don't? Someone could run two bots and you'd never know to report them. Seems unfair to implement a rule that only punishes the honest.

[Hell Killy]

Bp.tf is turned into shit long ago.

 

There are ONLY bots in classies, and about 5 people allways on top with their undercutting scripts. Others, who using bot.tf or their own kinds of trade assistance, based on bp automatic or whatever, have NO SINGLE chance to make a deal, unless those bots ran out of keys. 

 

There are 2 solutions, essentially:

 

1. if you are expirienced enough, make/emprove your bot to cut others with 0.11 as often as possible. Yeah, it's understandable that the more undercutters than less profit, due to margins shrinking. But it's irrestible, It's just a matter of the time.

 

2. If you are suck at coding, like me, and there is no rental bot with the cut functional (Danny is not going to implement it, by the reaon described above) - just forget about this site. Actually, same shit on SCM, altrough it had been stated that Vavle does not welcome automation, but at least you can get a bot and parser and other stuff easily.

 

Backpack does not provide their own bots, and does not prevent to abuse (incorrect term, since cutting is not agains the rules in general, but still), so we can se the same bots on top everywhere, and I honestly see no reason why people still paying for bot.tf, which or just trying to check their classies - it's not worth it. 

[Hell Killy]

PS the situation in OP is a particular application, the owner of Gandalf bots was first who starting to use this tactic, to seize the entire page of listings. 3 bots with same listing and undercutting script (idk if he had sinchronized then or not but anyways it's a very nice tactic. Wondering why he have only 3 bots, probably because of hardware/hosting).

 

Don't moderators know about it? I don't think. Well. that's allrint, just DO THE SAME if you can, this is not an "fair" market, honestly, nobody said that.

[Teeny Tiny Cat]

1 hour ago, Hell Killy said:

Bp.tf is turned into shit long ago.

 

How is it the role of backpack.tf to make decisions about how people want to trade? Classifieds are simply for listing your items. The market going the way of the bot is not our job to mediate.

[Hell Killy]

Okay, np. To be honest, I argue here just because I unable to make my own undercutting shit. Even taking into account that there is enough examples on github. I'm just too stupid.

 

But, anyways, If I'm not wrong (but most likely I am) it's weird if this site, presented as community trading and pricing site, is completely under control of a small group of people who actually not giving a **** about pricing and everything, they just run script which cut others no matter if price is 1 ref of 100 keys, no matter if this price is realistic or ridicolous.

 

Again, this is only my problem, that I can't buy or sell something because some people can offer better deal (with 0.11 difference). If other thousands of users are happiy to eat the dust, it's ok. 

[Teeny Tiny Cat]

8 minutes ago, Hell Killy said:

But, anyways, If I'm not wrong (but most likely I am) it's weird if this site, presented as community trading and pricing site, is completely under control of a small group of people who actually not giving a **** about pricing and everything, they just run script which cut others no matter if price is 1 ref of 100 keys, no matter if this price is realistic or ridicolous.

 

I don't really know what this means. I don't think many of the mods operate bots or do low tier trading. I run the site day to day and I don't trade at all. Bots may be taking control of the economy to a degree, but this site is not the economy.

[unstopaBULLY]

3 minutes ago, Teeny Tiny Cat said:

 

I don't really know what this means. I don't think many of the mods operate bots or do low tier trading. I run the site day to day and I don't trade at all. Bots may be taking control of the economy to a degree, but this site is not the economy.

At this point it really is, there are limited/almost no alternatives for listing your items for keys/otehr items (not cash.)

 

As someone who owns several bots including automatic and bot.tf bots, I would be extremely happy if there were no bots on classifieds but I don't think that's happening.

[Teeny Tiny Cat]

Just now, unstopaBULLY said:

At this point it really is, there are limited/almost no alternatives for listing your items for keys/otehr items (not cash.)

 

As someone who owns several bots including automatic and bot.tf bots, I would be extremely happy if there were no bots on classifieds but I don't think that's happening.

 

The fact that other sites don't exist anymore doesn't make us the defacto economy. If you like human to human trading, maybe use bazaar? Classifieds were always designed around sending offers without having to add or talk to people. Like the fact that people stopped using or infrequently use sites that do not have as many bots is the driver here, not us. We're just a medium.

[Hell Killy]

Just now, unstopaBULLY said:

if there were no bots on classifieds

Bots are fine in general. In the meaning of automatic accept. It's pain for normal users to wait for hours, or send the same offer to many different traders. 

 

But undercuting is real trash. 

 

[Hell Killy]

This discusion have no value. 

 

There are 2 big problems: automated undercutting, and multiple accs to seize classies.

 

Everybody knows that, and ajusted.

 

Both of this strategies are seems like misuse, because don't let other users, who are not Java developers, or just not assholes, use this site as intended.

 

You will NEVER see your listing on the main page, no matter if you have premium subscription or something. 

 

The only hope - if someone will provide undercutting bot for all. Ofc, it would upset the trading on this site immideately, and everything will be bouhgt/sold with 0.11 difference, but whatever. I have nothing from here now, just because no one ever see my bot.tf and my own listing because they being constanly cuted. So what the difference beetwen not to have offers at all, or have a negligible profit...

 

[Teeny Tiny Cat]

I mean, if you're trading low value items you're making negligible profit anyway so I'm not sure why this such a huge deal for you personally. Regardless, it's not really the point of the thread so make a new one if you want to discuss it further.

[Hell Killy]

I'm trading australiums, and I have negligible profit because of what is shown in OP + automated undercutting. They're walking hand-in-hand, as I said above, there is at least one person who are clever enough to use both tactics simultaneusly, and there is no way to compete.

 

No matter at what price i want to buy or sell an item, in a couple of minutes my listing will disappear from the main page, and won't come up again, regardless of my premium subsribtion.

 

[Teeny Tiny Cat]

I mean I'm sorry if that's frustrating for you, but nobody is forcing you to use this site. You can use one that allows for more person-to-person rather than automated trading. If this site is the most popular, that's because this is the form of trading people want.

[Hell Killy]

18 minutes ago, Teeny Tiny Cat said:

that's because this is the form of trading people want

 

When ~5 people trading and have a lot of profit (at least in regard in non-unusual items), and others sucking on the bottom of classies? Well, okaaay...

 

18 minutes ago, Teeny Tiny Cat said:

but nobody is forcing you to use this site

IK

 

Anyways, it seems unfair and it will be great to prohibit the use of undercutting bots (I'm not against bots in general), or create equal opportunities for all, by adding this functionality as a complement to premium (bp.tf official bot or something).

 

But giving that's clearly unreacheble, I'll better go away.

[Wsdea]

2 hours ago, Hell Killy said:

it will be great to prohibit the use of undercutting bots

No, if you do so, people will be undercutting each other at almost the same pace thanks to alerts and scripts. The situation would be the same. 

 

Everything is fine like that, if you want to profit, stop trading craft hats. 

[Julia]

Well, the main issue I had that seems to be missed here is that there used to be a rule that you weren't allowed to have more than one buy order for the same item. This was back when it was possible to create multiple buy orders on the same item. Buy orders were somewhat new at the time. I was making buy orders back then and I was mindful of not creating multiple buy orders for the same item, so this sticks in my head a bit. I don't know if it was ever actually written in the rules since it was going to get patched soon. I believe it might've also been said that you cannot use multiple accounts to do the same thing, but this was years ago so I'm not really sure if that was said or not.

 

This is the same thing, but you're using multiple accounts to do it. I don't do much low-tier trading, but when I see this it just really seems to go against that rule and it's not hard to see how it could be unfair to other buyers (or only fair if everyone uses X number of bots). There is a rule currently that states you cannot do the same thing for sell orders to bypass the folding system. Though, personally I don't see it as big of an issue for sell orders.

 

I agree that it could be difficult to enforce if someone wants to dress up their bots to dodge the rules.

[Adolf Storms]

4 hours ago, Teeny Tiny Cat said:

I mean I'm sorry if that's frustrating for you, but nobody is forcing you to use this site. You can use one that allows for more person-to-person rather than automated trading. If this site is the most popular, that's because this is the form of trading people want.

 

*insert head up ass joke here*

you're missing what people are saying. they're saying they won't continue to use bp.tf classies because of this. you're basically telling ppl to accept what is making trading for non bots difficult and use another site. wtf kind of business logic is that? 

 

person walks into a retail store and asks where to buy x and you tell them somewhere between isles 1 and 50. if they can't deal with the fact you're too lazy to put things in order and keep that order they can shop somewhere else. ya. seems intelligent

 

here's a thought... if someone had multiple accounts and placed buy orders for an item they own well above what others are paying it may be construed as price manipulation. oversimplification, but it's happened and a few got banned. IP addresses etc make it ez to track. what's the diff when a 'bot' does the same thing? still price manipulation imo still should be policed.

[Teeny Tiny Cat]

1 hour ago, Adolf Storms said:

 

*insert head up ass joke here*

you're missing what people are saying. they're saying they won't continue to use bp.tf classies because of this. you're basically telling ppl to accept what is making trading for non bots difficult and use another site. wtf kind of business logic is that? 

 

person walks into a retail store and asks where to buy x and you tell them somewhere between isles 1 and 50. if they can't deal with the fact you're too lazy to put things in order and keep that order they can shop somewhere else. ya. seems intelligent

 

here's a thought... if someone had multiple accounts and placed buy orders for an item they own well above what others are paying it may be construed as price manipulation. oversimplification, but it's happened and a few got banned. IP addresses etc make it ez to track. what's the diff when a 'bot' does the same thing? still price manipulation imo still should be policed.

 

Okay, firstly, I am not running a business. I am here to manage the staff and ensure the rules are applied fairly.

 

Secondly, you've missed my point. The purpose of saying that was to demonstrate that the majority of users either don't mind, or in fact prefer, the way classifieds work, since this is still the most-used site for tf2 trading.

 

And how would you suggest we police this, practically speaking? Have mods do the rounds checking on random stats pages daily? Because linking alts is something they can do but it's not something the average user can necessarily do. We work on reports, mods do not and will never sit around looking for rules infractions. That is not a good use of their limited time and we already have 100s of reports a day that need their attention. So, we're back to my original point - the only ones users are gonna spot are the ones that state their bot owner in the profile. Seems highly unfair, not to mention entirely pointless, to enforce a rule that would practically speaking only be applied to those who outed themselves. People would just start removing that info from bot profiles and we'd be back to square one.

 

2 hours ago, Julia said:

Well, the main issue I had that seems to be missed here is that there used to be a rule that you weren't allowed to have more than one buy order for the same item. This was back when it was possible to create multiple buy orders on the same item. Buy orders were somewhat new at the time. I was making buy orders back then and I was mindful of not creating multiple buy orders for the same item, so this sticks in my head a bit. I don't know if it was ever actually written in the rules since it was going to get patched soon. I believe it might've also been said that you cannot use multiple accounts to do the same thing, but this was years ago so I'm not really sure if that was said or not.

 

This is the same thing, but you're using multiple accounts to do it. I don't do much low-tier trading, but when I see this it just really seems to go against that rule and it's not hard to see how it could be unfair to other buyers (or only fair if everyone uses X number of bots). There is a rule currently that states you cannot do the same thing for sell orders to bypass the folding system. Though, personally I don't see it as big of an issue for sell orders.

 

I agree that it could be difficult to enforce if someone wants to dress up their bots to dodge the rules.

 

Yeah, the way we handled it when it was random users and their alts was a little different since that was something that was generally fairly uncommon and easy to police. That's not the situation we're in now. If someone has a practical suggestion on how this could be enforced without either requiring mods to go looking or requiring changes to the way the site actually works, I'm all ears. But I haven't heard any yet.

[Julia]

1 hour ago, Teeny Tiny Cat said:

Yeah, the way we handled it when it was random users and their alts was a little different since that was something that was generally fairly uncommon and easy to police. That's not the situation we're in now. If someone has a practical suggestion on how this could be enforced without either requiring mods to go looking or requiring changes to the way the site actually works, I'm all ears. But I haven't heard any yet.

It would work like any other issue with listings: the user reports the rogue listing. It would be more difficult to catch anyone who tries to not get caught doing it but such is the same for many laws. Tax evasion is a thing but just because it can be difficult to enforce doesn't mean it should be permissible to evade paying taxes. In cases like in the example it is quite easy to catch. This is just my opinion, but I don't think there will be a point where everyone is intentionally trying to hide which bots they own so they can take up more listing space. Many bot owners take pride in their bots. They often link to which bots they own, even creating a brand around their bots. Even if someone does not link which bots they own it usually isn't too difficult to figure out who owns the bot by checking item histories.