Regarding bot.tf bots.

[Sprekt]

So, I recently stumbled across this -> https://backpack.tf/u/76561198344933095

 

I wondered, do I put myself at a risk by renting a bot.tf account that potentially will make a trade with a scammer? I mean, the only setting that is offered in the bot.tf panel to prevent scammers from exploiting bot.tf accounts without hassle is to decline all private users. If yes, why is bot.tf even allowed on your site? Shouldn't you demand better optimization from the owner? Like for an example, the bot will automatically flag all trade offers sent from suspicious accounts(low hours, few games, new account, few friends) and you'll have to process the flagged offers manually?

 

I do understand that there will be loopholes to exploit if the rules stays the same. (You can use the bot to deal with scammers intentionally and then blame it on that you didn't know etc) hence why I want a clarification of what's allowed or not. It can't be something new for you admins nor moderators that scammers easily can exploit these accounts without the owners consent, but it feels strange that you suddenly punished a bot seemingly out of nowhere (from the information given to the public) when you've allowed the bots to use your website from the beginning. If you really want to keep this (in my opinion silly and way too strict) policy of that buying from scammers is literally one of the worst things you can do why is bot.tf allowed to interact with your website? It opens up for like the total opposite of what it seems like you want to happen on your website.

 

From another perspective, if this just is a case that was based on some information that's secret between you admins, why would bot.tf accounts slip through without bans meanwhile regular traders gets punished? Shouldn't the rules be the same for everyone? Or is it just that simple that nobody bothers to report bot accounts for this type of issue? With the current state of most of the bots out there on the classifieds I don't really understand how they are allowed at all looking at the astonishing tough punishments you're handling out for something that might happen and is happening way too often with this particular group of accounts.

 

(I do apologize in advance just in case this got brought up on discord or in another thread)

 

 

[Torb]

23 minutes ago, Sprekt said:

So, I recently stumbled across this -> https://backpack.tf/u/76561198344933095

 

I wondered, do I put myself at a risk by renting a bot.tf account that potentially will make a trade with a scammer? I mean, the only setting that is offered in the bot.tf panel to prevent scammers from exploiting bot.tf accounts without hassle is to decline all private users. If yes, why is bot.tf even allowed on your site? Shouldn't you demand better optimization from the owner? Like for an example, the bot will automatically flag all trade offers sent from suspicious accounts(low hours, few games, new account, few friends) and you'll have to process the flagged offers manually?

 

I do understand that there will be loopholes to exploit if the rules stays the same. (You can use the bot to deal with scammers intentionally and then blame it on that you didn't knew etc) hence why I want a clarification of what's allowed or not. It can't be something new for you admins nor moderators that scammers easily can exploit these accounts without the owners consent, but it feels strange that you suddenly punished a bot seemingly out of nowhere (from the information given to the public) when you've allowed the bots to use your website from the beginning. If you really want to keep this (in my opinion silly and way too strict) policy of that buying from scammers is literally one of the worst things you can do why is bot.tf allowed to interact with your website? It opens up for like the total opposite of what it seems like you want to happen on your website.

 

From another perspective, if this just is a case that was based on some information that's secret between you admins, why would bot.tf accounts slip through without bans meanwhile regular traders gets punished? Shouldn't the rules be the same for everyone? Or is it just that simple that nobody bothers to report bot accounts for this type of issue? With the current state of most of the bots out there on the classifieds I don't really understand how they are allowed at all looking at the astonishing tough punishments you're handling out for something that might happen and is happening way too often with this particular group of accounts.

 

(I do apologize in advance just in case this got brought up on discord or in another thread)

 

 

seems like steamrep marked users cant trade with bots but non sr banned alts or just bptf banned users can

[Sprekt]

1 minute ago, Torb | Elite Spell Trader™ said:

seems like steamrep marked users cant trade with bots but non sr banned alts or just bptf banned users can

Doesn't matter too much - it isn't rocket science to create an alternate account to sell your scammed items through before steamrep is able to ban it.

[TheGlenCoco]

Doubt the account was marked while trading with the bot. Bot.tf bots do check if user they are trading with is marked.

[Torb]

4 minutes ago, TheGlenCoco said:

Doubt the account was marked while trading with the bot. Bot.tf bots do check if user they are trading with is marked.

they only check for steamrep mark, they will trade with alts which are marked on bp.tf iirc and they will trade with an unmarked blatant scammer

[TheGlenCoco]

No they check users through CheckUserInfo Api.

[MasterMinder]

3 minutes ago, Torb | Elite Spell Trader™ said:

they only check for steamrep mark, they will trade with alts which are marked on bp.tf iirc and they will trade with an unmarked blatant scammer

They do check bp.tf bans.

 

Since Chopper bot (http://backpack.tf/u/76561198344933095) got a temporary ban I have immediately implemented the following: https://gyazo.com/68a09c786c0dbdad5bd6fb0d48af72e9

Reason why I have not implemented this earlier was because I simply didn't know this was necessary, as the backpack.tf automatic (which was considered "official" back then) didn't have such checks.

 

If you have any questions, feel free to contact me.

[Torb]

3 minutes ago, MasterMinder said:

They do check bp.tf bans.

 

Since Chopper bot (http://backpack.tf/u/76561198344933095) got a temporary ban I have immediately implemented the following: https://gyazo.com/68a09c786c0dbdad5bd6fb0d48af72e9

Reason why I have not implemented this earlier was because I simply didn't know this was necessary, as the backpack.tf automatic (which was considered "official" back then) didn't have such checks.

 

If you have any questions, feel free to contact me.

how come its 7 keys and not 15 keys?

[Sprekt]

3 minutes ago, MasterMinder said:

They do check bp.tf bans.

 

Since Chopper bot (http://backpack.tf/u/76561198344933095) got a temporary ban I have immediately implemented the following: https://gyazo.com/68a09c786c0dbdad5bd6fb0d48af72e9

Reason why I have not implemented this earlier was because I simply didn't know this was necessary, as the backpack.tf automatic (which was considered "official" back then) didn't have such checks.

 

If you have any questions, feel free to contact me.

Assumed that this didn't slip through unnoticed - thanks for implementing this so quickly. Although this thread wasn't an attack on bot.tf, it was more to reach out to backpack.tf and their unreliable rules on this subject. Did this change made it 100% safe to use bot.tf again? Or do I still risk a permanent ban? Question still stands along with some others in my original post.

[MasterMinder]

3 minutes ago, Torb | Elite Spell Trader™ said:

how come its 7 keys and not 15 keys?

Just to be sure, better safe than sorry *shrugs*

 

Just now, Sprekt said:

Assumed that this didn't slip through unnoticed - thanks for implementing this so quickly. Although this thread wasn't an attack on bot.tf, it was more to reach out to backpack.tf and their unreliable rules on this subject. Did this change made it 100% safe to use bot.tf again? Or do I still risk a permanent ban? Question still stands along with some others in my original post.

It's definitely significantly safer, but I don't know if it's 100%, that's up to the backpack.tf staff.

[Sprekt]

3 minutes ago, Torb | Elite Spell Trader™ said:

how come its 7 keys and not 15 keys?

I don't want to speak for MasterMinder here but the lower the limit is the harder it gets for scammers to quickly sell items with a lot of value all together before it's noticed. 

[Torb]

Just now, Sprekt said:

I don't want to speak for MasterMinder here but the lower the limit is the harder it gets for scammers to quickly sell items with a lot of value all together before it's noticed. 

i guess thats true, i didnt really think about multiple smaller items

[TheGlenCoco]

15 keys is the limit, less you dont get banned for trading with scammers.

[Teeny Tiny Cat]

This isn't a change, we have always operated this way. It's a risk you take if you use a bot. I have banned many bot owners for trades with obvious but unbanned scammer alts, this is absolutely nothing new. I have always advised bot owners to have manual checks on trades above 15 keys, as it is their responsibility to make sure their trades are within the rules. It's really good of @MasterMinder to have implemented this for you.

[Sprekt]

3 hours ago, Teeny Tiny Cat said:

This isn't a change, we have always operated this way. It's a risk you take if you use a bot. I have banned many bot owners for trades with obvious but unbanned scammer alts, this is absolutely nothing new. I have always advised bot owners to have manual checks on trades above 15 keys, as it is their responsibility to make sure their trades are within the rules. It's really good of @MasterMinder to have implemented this for you.

I'm specifically talking about bot.tf bots here. They are far away from the same thing as coding your own bot. You do not own the account, so technically it isn't even your alternate account if you decide to purchase one. If you're saying that you've been banning a lot of bots for trading with scammers I hope you're speaking in general - since it seems to be the first time a bot.tf bot gets a punishment looking at MasterMinder's previous response. Unless one of you is straight up lying of course.

 

This just does not make any sense at all. At the current state of the rules, you're punishing people absurdly hard for cooperating both intentionally and unintentionally with scammers but at the same time you're promoting a service by letting it use your platform to expand and function that literally enhances the whole process for scammers and indirectly encourages them to continue. You're also putting certain people in a higher risk zone for scam attempts if there's a bot from bot.tf that has a buyorder up. Doesn't rhyme very well with the rules you currently have.

 

It just feels wrong that it's okay for a individual to create hundreds of bots that enhances the process for scammers without risking anything meanwhile a regular trader with some pure bad luck can have themselves permanently banned making trades worth less than $100 on the two major trading websites which automatically ruins said users trading career. Not to mention that all of this is happening on a platform that almost considers dealing with scammers the worst thing you can do.

 

Edit;

If you've always advised bot owners to have manual checks on more expensive trades, how come that bot.tf has operated for this long without any warnings/punishments/forced changes? When you purchase a bot you're offered a very limited amount of settings to prevent trades with scammers from happening, and since you do not own the steam account you aren't able to change it yourself. It's up to the owner, which in this case is MasterMinder hence why going with your words, deserves a punishment since he technically owns all the bots. 

 

[Teeny Tiny Cat]

12 minutes ago, Sprekt said:

I'm specifically talking about bot.tf bots here. They are far away from the same thing as coding your own bot. You do not own the account, so technically it isn't even your alternate account if you decide to purchase one. If you're saying that you've been banning a lot of bots for trading with scammers I hope you're speaking in general - since it seems to be the first time a bot.tf bot gets a punishment looking at MasterMinder's previous response. Unless one of you is straight up lying of course.

 

This just does not make any sense at all. At the current state of the rules, you're punishing people absurdly hard for cooperating both intentionally and unintentionally with scammers but at the same time you're promoting a service by letting it use your platform to expand and function that literally enhances the whole process for scammers and indirectly encourages them to continue. You're also putting certain people in a higher risk zone for scam attempts if there's a bot from bot.tf that has a buyorder up. Doesn't rhyme very well with the rules you currently have.

 

It just feels wrong that it's okay for a individual to create hundreds of bots that enhances the process for scammers without risking anything meanwhile a regular trader with some pure bad luck can have themselves permanently banned making trades worth less than $100 on the two major trading websites which automatically ruins said users trading career. Not to mention that all of this is happening on a platform that almost considers dealing with scammers the worst thing you can do.

 

 

 

From a user perspective a bot.tf bot might be different, but from my perspective they're not. The same rules apply to them all. Do manual checks on all trades above 15 keys in value.

 

Bot.tf bots have been banned before, as have users operating them. Why would I ban masterminder for that? He didn't trade with any scammers nor did he gain anything from the bots who did, the people using the bots did that.

[Diamond jozu]

atleast it was a temp ban but the current owner is offline which is bad for the owner on how he can avoid such incident

[Sprekt]

2 minutes ago, Teeny Tiny Cat said:

 

From a user perspective a bot.tf bot might be different, but from my perspective they're not. The same rules apply to them all. Do manual checks on all trades above 15 keys in value.

Alright. So please explain to me, why is this service allowed on your platform when you're demanding something out of the user that is paying for the service that literally is impossible?

[Teeny Tiny Cat]

23 minutes ago, Sprekt said:

Alright. So please explain to me, why is this service allowed on your platform when you're demanding something out of the user that is paying for the service that literally is impossible?

 

What kind of scripts or services users choose to use is their business. If it can't comply with the rules and they choose to use it anyway, that's a risk they take that could see them end up banned. Masterminder has now been kind enough to allow for manual checks above a certain value so it's no longer impossible as you so oddly stressed, so why are you still arguing about it?

 

25 minutes ago, Diamond jozu said:

atleast it was a temp ban but the current owner is offline which is bad for the owner on how he can avoid such incident

 

It was discussed with him before the ban, he is well aware of it.

[MasterMinder]

2 hours ago, Sprekt said:

If you're saying that you've been banning a lot of bots for trading with scammers I hope you're speaking in general - since it seems to be the first time a bot.tf bot gets a punishment looking at MasterMinder's previous response. Unless one of you is straight up lying of course.

 

It's true, Bot.tf bots have been banned in the past, but those bans that were issued because of trading with a scammer were all lifted as well, because I provided proof of them being banned before the trade happened. This is the first time however that a bot got banned because they traded with an "obvious scammer alt".

 

2 hours ago, Sprekt said:

Alright. So please explain to me, why is this service allowed on your platform when you're demanding something out of the user that is paying for the service that literally is impossible?

It's true, you can't do these manual checks yet. However the temporary solution I have implemented so far has a detection rate of 100% and a failure rate (false positives) of ~8%, not bad I'd say! Anyway, back to what's impossible: I'll have the manual accepting of trades etc. for risky and high value trades, along with some additional features up later today. Stay tuned.

[MasterMinder]

As promised, here is the latest changelog

 

Quote

Panel update 6/5/2018

    - [Feature] Pending trade offers tab has been added
    - [Feature] You can now configure your bot to put item offers (item overpay) in your pending trade offers, so you can manually accept or decline the offer (in general config)
    - [Feature] You can now subscribe to notifications of trade offers that have been held for manual review in your bot's notification settings
    - [Feature] Trades with a value of 15 keys and higher and are possibly from a scammer alt will be held for manual review (these measures are in place to prevent the bot from trading with "obvious scammer alts", which is your responsibility)