The definition of Sharking

[[Unactive Account]]

Sharking has been a controversial thing for the tf2 trading world IMO because of 3 things

 

1) There is not a permanent definition for it

 

2) When does it turn into agressive sharking?

 

3) When is it considered sharking

 

Steamrep even has a statement saying that because there is no real definition for it they can't ban people unless it is a serious offence. But what is a serious offence?

 

So I thought this thread could help us find what actually is sharking.

 

 

 

Hope this is in the right topic 

if its not can someone move it to the right subforum?

[SilverSpeed]

I believe that sharking is intentionally misrepresenting, or lying to someone about how much an item could be worth so as to achieve a greater profit from said trade.

Some people might say it's as simple as paying someone a low value item for a high value item, but if both people walk away perfectly content with the trade what's the big deal?

If someone is misrepresenting how much an item could be worth or just outright lying then that's when I would call sharking.

[Captain Caboose]

Only the gullible fall for it, not a huge issue unless you just started reading.

[Scott Bakula]

The definition is pretty simple: Sharking is when a person takes advantage of another person's naivete and/or lack of experience to get an advantageous deal.

 

Where the problem occurs is that everyone draws the line between bad deal and sharking at a different point, preventing consensus from occurring.

 

 

Me, when I think of sharking, I think of the times in card shops where a young kid opens up a pack of cards, gets an ultra rare, and is then approached by an older person who offers a tantalizing (to them) offer of a large amount of near worthless cards or a card featuring the kid's favorite character that is worth a fraction of the first card's price.

[Shpeed]

http://backpack.tf/u/76561198148511293

http://backpack.tf/u/76561198000889832

Those are the definitions of sharking. I'm going to get so much shit for this but idc.

 

But in all seriousness sharking is tricking somebody into taking a horrible offer with the intentions of maximizing profit, ignoring the losses suffered by the other party. If there's a clear difference between the value of the items, then I think it could be considered sharking, unless there are extenuating circumstances that clarify a reason.

[Kika368]

I could be wrong, but from what I can tell, lowballing isn't the same as sharking, I feel that sharking is outright lying to somebody about the value of their items, while lowballing is just making a really cheap offer, and leaving it up to the person you're trading to either accept or decline

 

Ultimately, I feel like it all goes down to: Accepting a Lowball = person doesn't know the value of their items, Sharking = you're lying about the value of the person's items

[MangoJam]

I think Urban Dictionary has a solid definition.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=shark

[[Unactive Account]]

I think Urban Dictionary has a solid definition.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=shark

how about you contribute for once instead of shitposting

[Bewitched]

http://backpack.tf/u/76561198148511293

http://backpack.tf/u/76561198000889832

Those are the definitions of sharking. I'm going to get so much shit for this but idc.

 

But in all seriousness sharking is tricking somebody into taking a horrible offer with the intentions of maximizing profit, ignoring the losses suffered by the other party. If there's a clear difference between the value of the items, then I think it could be considered sharking, unless there are extenuating circumstances that clarify a reason.

I didnt shark anything why you continously posting my link i can sell my stuff that all stuff was 1 of 1 and good effects i can sell how much i want...and i didnt lie anywhere.......for that hood he offered me not me ,he randomly added me from server....and please stop posting my links....please please read about sharking, we agreed both sides.

[3.50]

how about you contribute for once instead of shitposting

I learned something new, so I'd say a contribution was made.

[3.50]

Sharking can't be simple misrepresentation of value, or else nearly every single person currently attempting to buy/sell any unusual is some degree of shark. Even a "completely honest" trader will 99% of the time cherry-pick BOs and offers that they know include price-inflated items, and use them to make their item seem more valuable, or to make the other guy's item seem less valuable.

 

I'd definitely make a distinction between what I'll call price distortion, cherry-picking and using facts to make something appear more/less valuable, vs. outright lying. Lying is wrong, and instantly puts you into the category of "obviously doing something wrong". Just cherry-picking offers and junk...meh. Everyone does it, and it's impossible to prove dishonest intent. Some people want to believe their hat is made of solid gold, and it's not dishonest when they insist it's super valuable.

 

It also can't be simple low- or high-balling, because even a hugely lopsided trade from the outside--if all parties are aware of the values involved and still want to do the trade--means both parties get what they want, and thus it's a fair trade.

 

The working definition I've come up with involves a couple parts, and all must be present to constitute sharking:

 

First, misrepresentation or concealment of facts. Whether this means you lie to Scrubby McNohatz about the value of his newly-unboxed unusual, or just realize he's a nub with no idea of values and send him an offer that only a nub with no ideas of value would accept, basically you know that he doesn't know what his hat is worth, and don't enlighten him.

 

Second, (potential) remorse when actual value is discovered. So Ankletrousers McBuckethead he gets excited that he sold his Scorching Orbiting Spycrab Pile of Killer Exclusives for 200 keys and tells everyone, and feels like shit when he realizes it's worth 9,001 keys. This works if he never finds out, but would have felt bad had he found out, of course. Essentially, he would never have accepted your deal had he known the actual values.

 

Third, and this is less important and almost goes without saying, but ratios. It can't be called sharking if you pay 65 keys for a 70 key unusual, because it's such a small difference. Even if the two above criteria are met, I'd be very reluctant to call that sharking.

 

My 0.03, anyway.

[OverduePixels]

http://forums.backpack.tf/index.php?/topic/29027-guide-for-background-checks/&do=findComment&comment=321062

http://forums.backpack.tf/index.php?/topic/51617-please-help-me-ban-these-idiots/?p=533120

 

This is my exact definition of Sharking. Polar shares 100% same view as me when it comes to sharking. If there is no intentional lying/deception/trickery........Involved, there is no need to scream "shark!" "shark!" "shark!"

 

Like Polar said in one of the link above...
 

Back when all this trading started, before bp.tf existed, before spreadsheet existed, people just traded for what they wanted. We're way too focused on monetary value on things, and that's not the most important thing in the world.

[MangoJam]

how about you contribute for once instead of shitposting

Since when is backpack.tf forums "a serious forum"?

[Lava]

If I had to make a call on whether someone was sharking (and to be clear, SteamRep doesn't tag for it), I would go by MCT's (Mann Co Trading, aka Pink Taco's Unusual Trade Server) definition and criteria for shark reports (paraphrased a bit since it's been a while for me):

• Shark entered the trade with malicious intent, fully aware of what they are doing. If 2 newbies enter into a deal where one of them loses out, because neither of them know how unusuals work (yes, that happens) then it's not a shark no matter how uneven the trade.
• Victim was explicitly misled about what their items were worth. If it's just an "item for item" or such, it's not a shark, but the key point here is deception, and misleading victim about prices. Telling a victim their crate #30 is worth no more than any other crate would be lying.
• Victim was harmed unreasonably. If the victim had a $300 backpack, and lost $50, it's not "unreasonable". If the victim received a few weapons for their 2 keys, citing Mann Co prices as de facto, and that's all they have, it would be considered unreasonable injury. It doesn't matter how uneven the trade is, if it's not effectively a game-breaker for you, it's not "unreasonable injury".
• Victim clearly had no way of knowing, and never once gave indication they knew the deal was uneven. If the victim is an experienced trader, who had the means or experience to recognize a bad deal, it's unlikely their trade would be considered a shark. So someone who has traded unusuals and lost 60% of their backpack value in a single trade wouldn't have been considered sharked because they had the means to know better. Sharks specifically seek out and prey upon players who don't know how trading works, then manipulate them and "teach" prices to their own ends.

If any of the criteria above didn't hold true, it wasn't a case of sharking. Note that specific prices are not listed. This is because prices do not matter; it's about deception and manipulation, not price policing.

 

Throughout the ages, different communities have held different rules about sharking. Some had fairly solid definitions of sharking, though MCT's is the only one I know offhand. Generally speaking though, contrary to popular belief, price doesn't matter. It's about deception, not unfair trades. There must be winners and losers for a healthy zero sum economy to exist; if everything is forced to be traded at the same price then the economy grinds to a half as nobody can make profit anymore. That's what a lot of people afraid of "rules" that they feel are forced upon them imagine, but that stems from a gross yet widespread misunderstanding of what sharking is. Most if not all the SteamRep partner communities who tried enforcing sharking policies got overwhelmed with traders stuck on the "price policing" side who were either unwilling or unable to understand a policy like above, to the point they gave up. If you're concerned about getting banned somewhere for sharking, you should take care to understand and follow their rules both inside and outside of the servers for any community you frequent.