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12/17/15 weapons update - gameplay changes?


MC22

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I managed to convince a friend to play TF2, but the problem is I haven't played this game in a long while. I noticed a fuck ton of changes have been brought around.

I used to play a degreaser/flaregun/axtinguisher combo when the ax dealt 195, then the powerjack after that.

Now it seems that all the weapons have been changed. What's the standard pyro set now?

 

What's up with the engi jag change? I used to always use it, is it still "ok"?

 

Man since I sold my scorching tree all my characters look crappy. Should I even bother attempting to improve their look?

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There have been a lot of changes since you were last on my friend. Weapons that didnt really have a use have been changed, such as the heavy melee ones ect. Most notable changes include the dead ringer getting a nerf, demoman melee getting a nerf, degreaser getting a nerf, jag sort of getting a nerf but as far as i am aware it is still usable.

 

As a pyro i use the stock flame thrower, flare gun, and powerjack although i hardly play pyro, but when i do this seems effective. And if you want to improve the look of your characters, many cosmetics have gone all class or nearly all class. The all father is a good multi class beard, usable on more classes than it was before. If i were you id try to make sets based on cheap all class cosmetics, or just not bother entirely :)

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axtingusher got a nerf a while ago

 

The reserve shooter used to be op with the degreaser, but now reserve and degreaser were nerfed

 

valve is ruining the game, thats why i dont really play anymore

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valve is finally balancing some of the most annoying classes/sub-classes like pillknight and puff-'n'-sting pyro, thats why i dont really play anymore

srsly tho

 

Lots of the recent or semi-recent weapon changes, like the changes to the Spy watches, Demo melees, Heavy melees, and the Loch-n-Load...as well as pretty much all the Pyro changes...seemed to target a weapon or combination of weapons that allowed players of a moderate skill level to steamroll similarly- or less-skilled opponents by doing one or two things over and over.

 

Highly Reflective Frontal Assault Autocrit AxePyro wasn't a bit of fun to play against, nor was Double-360-Crit No-Scope Loch-N-Splode Targe Tank.

 

It also wasn't a ton of fun to play AS those classes, because you were forced to use certain weapons and/or strategies or else be less effective (see: old Degreaser, when using a different flame thrower was conclusive proof you were either an idiot or not trying to win).

 

Now there's more variety due to more balance, and it's more interesting and more fun.

 

If nerfing the pubstomping loadouts is ruining the game, I hope they never stop.

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srsly tho

 

Lots of the recent or semi-recent weapon changes, like the changes to the Spy watches, Demo melees, Heavy melees, and the Loch-n-Load...as well as pretty much all the Pyro changes...seemed to target a weapon or combination of weapons that allowed players of a moderate skill level to steamroll similarly- or less-skilled opponents by doing one or two things over and over.

 

Highly Reflective Frontal Assault Autocrit AxePyro wasn't a bit of fun to play against, nor was Double-360-Crit No-Scope Loch-N-Splode Targe Tank.

 

It also wasn't a ton of fun to play AS those classes, because you were forced to use certain weapons and/or strategies or else be less effective (see: old Degreaser, when using a different flame thrower was conclusive proof you were either an idiot or not trying to win).

 

Now there's more variety due to more balance, and it's more interesting and more fun.

 

If nerfing the pubstomping loadouts is ruining the game, I hope they never stop.

 

I was the only one i saw or heard of going degreaser>reserve shooter, with sometimes my friend medding me (when he did.. haha pubs are fun) and id burn them, then just get that crit with the reserve (when someone was burning) and 1-2 shots dead.

 

I mean, thats fun, I miss original tf2, there are other ways to beat this, spies on the med and me, stickybombs, people just complain because they are bad and dont know how to stop.

 

I remember everyone using any flame + axtingusher and i died by it many times in early tf2, but i never complained, it was fine, and i never used the axtingusher.

 

Basically it was burn and 1 hit axtingusher (worse then what i was doing) 

 

So yeah, with the nerfs it just makes people stray away from using classes (no one liked pyro after the nerf) so that would make valves $$ go down, with no market buys and etc.

 

Like used to be able to burn and shoot demo knights before they killed me, but now pyro does jack shit and the demoknight one hits and reks...

 

Basically the only class i see people DOING WELL in nowadays is sniper.

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The Degreaser nerf wasn't really as people as described it. If anything, it's probably for the best as now you see more variety in Pyro as Fiskie said & let's face it, most deg Pyros never really rely on its after burn so the removal of the damage penalty coupled with lower fallout damage to the Flame Throwers was a great change.

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Triggering pyro mains like me

 

I actually kinda liked the degreaser rework, for once. Although initially it was absolute shit to rebuild the muscle memory for the timing. I missed every single shot. After getting the hang of the timing I am able to flarepunch, puff and sting as effective as before. The damage falloff buff means that I can melt off spies and scouts if they get too close.

 

If you are not confident with the flaregun, I would recommend running shotgun instead, use it as your primary and use your degreaser whenever it is necessary. Reserve shooter is also a decent option, but satan will be "reserving" a place for you in hell.

 

The afterburn is somewhat nothing to worry about, the flaregun burn will override the degreaser afternburn. Scorch shot is also an excellent option to deal massive aoe splash burn that will build over time, it is also another great option to throw snipers off. On another note, the stock flame can also flarepunch in theory, but it requires the enemy being brain dead and walking straight towards you. I would recommend learning to track enemies with flames, slowing your pace for a bit and rebuild your internal clock for the degreaser.

 

The degreaser is still by far the best option, flare and shotgun is the best two secondaries with best reliability and consistency. Powerjack is best melee with its utility and being non situational.

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What's up with the engi jag change? I used to always use it, is it still "ok"?

 

The Jag finally does what it was supposed to do all along, and lets you build stuff considerably faster. Once your nest is up, though, it'll be slightly harder to keep it up as compared to the stock wrench.

 

Basically, it swings faster, but does less damage to players, or repair to your buildings, per swing. Building and upgrading speed with it don't get penalties, though---it builds and upgrades quite a bit faster. It repairs at almost the same rate (slightly slower, I think, after swing speed bonus and repair per hit penalty are taken into account), and takes three whacks to remove sappers.

 

Also, I could be wrong about this, but I think Jag-whacking makes buildings re-deploy faster, as well.

 

As far as it being good: yes, it's good. It's not a 300% straight upgrade, but it allows you to build and upgrade your stuff in noticeably less time, which is definitely a good thing. If you can't get over the 3-whacking sappers, you can consider putting up your buildings and then switching wrenches, as the situation allows.

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I was the only one i saw or heard of going degreaser>reserve shooter, with sometimes my friend medding me (when he did.. haha pubs are fun) and id burn them, then just get that crit with the reserve (when someone was burning) and 1-2 shots dead.

 

I mean, thats fun, I miss original tf2, there are other ways to beat this, spies on the med and me, stickybombs, people just complain because they are bad and dont know how to stop.

 

I remember everyone using any flame + axtingusher and i died by it many times in early tf2, but i never complained, it was fine, and i never used the axtingusher.

 

Basically it was burn and 1 hit axtingusher (worse then what i was doing) 

 

So yeah, with the nerfs it just makes people stray away from using classes (no one liked pyro after the nerf) so that would make valves $$ go down, with no market buys and etc.

 

Like used to be able to burn and shoot demo knights before they killed me, but now pyro does jack shit and the demoknight one hits and reks...

 

Basically the only class i see people DOING WELL in nowadays is sniper.

 

So basically you hate how valve nerfed an overpowered combo because there were counters to the combo? Yes, there are ways to defeat a degreaser pyro, but the point is the degreaser was literally the only flame thrower in the game. There was no reason to use anything else over it - it had almost equal DPS, instant switch times and allowed near broken combos.

The reserve shooter punished those who played the game correctly by adding mini crits for jumping, which is the main tank for most classes, by avoiding damage.

 

The demoknight is easy to airblast away, any pyro is capable of airblasting one. You also outrange him so you can kite him, outspeed him so you can run away from him and have a stupidly easy to aim weapon to spam him down with while being as hard to hit as possible. A demoknight should never kill a pyro unless he can't see the demoknight.

 

After the pyro nerf most the community likes the that pyro is in, with weapon variety, no ridiculous nuke attacks capable of one hitting most classes and no stupid shotgun that punishes people for being harder to hit. Before the nerf people had the right to complain because the combo was overpowered, it broke the role of the pyro by turning him into a lurker rather than a support and broke his class variance.

 

These days people are capable of doing well as every class, soldiers can demolish the enemy in wide rooms with room to jump, medic can keep his team up, capable of shutting down a messy disorganised team, demo can camp chokepoints, sniper can nuke players who overextend etc. There is so much more variety now then back in the pyro/soldier or gtfo days.

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...

It's still annoying as hell to play against a good Pyro, but at least you stand a more realistic chance now.

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It's still annoying as hell to play against a good Pyro, but at least you stand a more realistic chance now.

Shoot a pyro with hitscan weapons. Walk away, pyro is slow. Only classes that are as slow/slower are spy/sniper/engi, which are not supposed to be in direct combat anyway and the heavy who out dms a pyro anyway and has higher health. 1v1 ing a good pyro as soldier (gunboats/banner) or demo (without shield) is incredibly difficult, so don't pick that fight. Jump away and let the scout/heavy/sniper deal with the pyro. Seriously, pyro has one gimmick which is short range damage against large numbers of enemies. And then there is airblast which is temporary skill based area denial.

 

Pyro is still incredibly weak, and if you get killed by one in a 1v1 you were either in a fight you shouldn't be in or not watching your flanks

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Shoot a pyro with hitscan weapons. Walk away, pyro is slow. Only classes that are as slow/slower are spy/sniper/engi, which are not supposed to be in direct combat anyway and the heavy who out dms a pyro anyway and has higher health. 1v1 ing a good pyro as soldier (gunboats/banner) or demo (without shield) is incredibly difficult, so don't pick that fight. Jump away and let the scout/heavy/sniper deal with the pyro. Seriously, pyro has one gimmick which is short range damage against large numbers of enemies. And then there is airblast which is temporary skill based area denial.

 

Pyro is still incredibly weak, and if you get killed by one in a 1v1 you were either in a fight you shouldn't be in or not watching your flanks

I dont know which pubs you play but in most pubs I cant trust my team to take care of a pyro. xD

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I dont know which pubs you play but in most pubs I cant trust my team to take care of a pyro. xD

You can still jump away, a pyro should never catch you as a solly/demo. And if you constantly get flanked you're probably overextended. And look around you more if you can't trust not to get flanked. If a pyro kills you by ambushing you then he deserves the kill as he outplayed you. Pyro has no thing he can do that another class can't do better. Spy is still the better ambush class, demo still the better area denial class. And it's not as if a pyro is some sort of Jack of all trades middle ground class. His primary has pathetic range, he's slow and his secondaries either lack range (shotguns, which pairs very poorly with the also low range flamethrowers), or do burst damage on already burning targets only if they are already on fire which either requires them to be close or for you to hit them twice. Meaning a sniper would have been better off. Pyro is so situational and really only is good against bad players that don't know which fights to pick. That's not what balance should revolve around

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You can still jump away, a pyro should never catch you as a solly/demo. And if you constantly get flanked you're probably overextended. And look around you more if you can't trust not to get flanked. If a pyro kills you by ambushing you then he deserves the kill as he outplayed you. Pyro has no thing he can do that another class can't do better. Spy is still the better ambush class, demo still the better area denial class. And it's not as if a pyro is some sort of Jack of all trades middle ground class. His primary has pathetic range, he's slow and his secondaries either lack range (shotguns, which pairs very poorly with the also low range flamethrowers), or do burst damage on already burning targets only if they are already on fire which either requires them to be close or for you to hit them twice. Meaning a sniper would have been better off. Pyro is so situational and really only is good against bad players that don't know which fights to pick. That's not what balance should revolve around

I'm not saying its impossible, I'm just saying its hard. And you have to fight him sooner or later. Heavy + Vacc medic works pretty good tho.

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I'm not saying its impossible, I'm just saying its hard. And you have to fight him sooner or later. Heavy + Vacc medic works pretty good tho.

Or scout (that can 2 shot a pyro whilst staying out of range because he's faster) or sniper or ambassador spy. Or 2 soldiers/demo that get around a pyro. He can only airblast one direction at the time and can never catch either of you. And if you know he's there, heavy who can easily out dps a pyro if you disregard spin up. Out in the open pyro is incredibly fragile. Even a soldier can easily 1v1 him. You have more rockets than a pyro can reflect and if you jump there's no way he can reflect your rockets into you, meaning he can do no damage. And then there are a lot of items to directly counter the class that's already the weakest in game (jarate, milk, that stupid no flinch sniper backpack, natascha, demo shields, concheror etc.) Pyro was shit already and the nerf to the degreaser only made the pyro worse

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axtingusher got a nerf a while ago

 

The reserve shooter used to be op with the degreaser, but now reserve and degreaser were nerfed

 

valve is ruining the game, thats why i dont really play anymore

 

I hope that's sarcasm. How is fixing broken, overpowered weapons and game mechanics ruining the game?

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Well, since you last played the jag has received some pretty major changes.

In Gun Mettle it's firing speed was buffed by 15% but it's repair rate changed from 100hp per swing to 80hp per swing. Then, in the Tough Break update it received a damage penalty to sappers now requiring 3 hits to remove a sapper which on top of the already significantly large buff to sappers having buildings they had sapped stay disabled after having the sapper was removed you'd be hard pressed to find a use for it in a public game although the firing speed buff makes it pretty well suited for MvM.

 

Other changes as I'm sure others on this thread have already mentioned include the degreaser's switch speed getting toned down in order to discourage puff and sting and the axetinguisher regaining it's full crits at the cost of an even larger damage penalty and an objectively crippling draw speed penalty.

 

The demoknight subclass has been toyed around with a bit but that's not something I have too much time to go into right now.

 

In closing: The jag is a bit harder to use in spy infested public environments but is extremely useful in MvM, when fighting a competent pyro you needn't worry as much about getting stunlocked and 1 shot should you play your cards right and demoknight is much healthier at the cost of his versatility.

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Shoot a pyro with hitscan weapons. Walk away, pyro is slow. Only classes that are as slow/slower are spy/sniper/engi, which are not supposed to be in direct combat anyway and the heavy who out dms a pyro anyway and has higher health. 1v1 ing a good pyro as soldier (gunboats/banner) or demo (without shield) is incredibly difficult, so don't pick that fight. Jump away and let the scout/heavy/sniper deal with the pyro. Seriously, pyro has one gimmick which is short range damage against large numbers of enemies. And then there is airblast which is temporary skill based area denial.

 

Pyro is still incredibly weak, and if you get killed by one in a 1v1 you were either in a fight you shouldn't be in or not watching your flanks

"pyro is slow"

10 times out of 10 when you're facing a pyro you'll be running backwards, make you move 10% slower which is enough for a pyro to catch up.

"killed by one in a 1v1 you were either in a fight you shouldn't be in or not watching your flanks" <- dumb statement, applies to every class. "spy is weak. If you get killed 1v1 you weren't watching your flanks or shouldn't have been fighting a spy head on if they have any bit of aim with stock revolver/ amby"

 

 

Or scout (that can 2 shot a pyro whilst staying out of range because he's faster) or sniper or ambassador spy. Or 2 soldiers/demo that get around a pyro. He can only airblast one direction at the time and can never catch either of you. And if you know he's there, heavy who can easily out dps a pyro if you disregard spin up. Out in the open pyro is incredibly fragile. Even a soldier can easily 1v1 him. You have more rockets than a pyro can reflect and if you jump there's no way he can reflect your rockets into you, meaning he can do no damage. And then there are a lot of items to directly counter the class that's already the weakest in game (jarate, milk, that stupid no flinch sniper backpack, natascha, demo shields, concheror etc.) Pyro was shit already and the nerf to the degreaser only made the pyro worse

This is waaayyy too situational. You can't say A is bad against B when B is in favorable conditions, that's a given.

 

RARELY EVER will you be fighting a good pyro in the open. If pyro gets any bit of a jump on you it's over with almost any class. Even with the nerf to flare punching it's still a viable tactic that can kill most classes instantly. Even a scout if he gets caught in the airblast is done, even with the strafe change. 

Heavy? Easy for a pyro to torch, flare, hide, peak for another flare, and heavy is now dead.

 

Also to say "2 soldiers/demo that get around a pyro" is a dumb statement. You can't say pyro is the weakest class and then say "Oh 2 of the best damage classes have to gang up in order to kill him" 

 

You can't say "If you're outmatched against a pyro run away." and then not expect a pyro to do the same thing if he finds himself outmatched? Who's to say the pyro just doesn't back up enough to get the soldier and demo both in his FOV to airblast with ease, or just run away?

 

Pyro isn't weak at all. The nerfs were well-deserved, and the class is still fairly strong. Picking out certain scenarios to point out flaws can be done with any class, that doesn't make them weak. It's called balance.

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10 times out of 10 when you're facing a pyro you'll be running backwards, make you move 10% slower which is enough for a pyro to catch up.

 

S + A or D lets you move almost full speed

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"pyro is slow"

10 times out of 10 when you're facing a pyro you'll be running backwards, make you move 10% slower which is enough for a pyro to catch up.

"killed by one in a 1v1 you were either in a fight you shouldn't be in or not watching your flanks" <- dumb statement, applies to every class. "spy is weak. If you get killed 1v1 you weren't watching your flanks or shouldn't have been fighting a spy head on if they have any bit of aim with stock revolver/ amby"

 

 

This is waaayyy too situational. You can't say A is bad against B when B is in favorable conditions, that's a given.

 

RARELY EVER will you be fighting a good pyro in the open. If pyro gets any bit of a jump on you it's over with almost any class. Even with the nerf to flare punching it's still a viable tactic that can kill most classes instantly. Even a scout if he gets caught in the airblast is done, even with the strafe change. 

Heavy? Easy for a pyro to torch, flare, hide, peak for another flare, and heavy is now dead.

 

Also to say "2 soldiers/demo that get around a pyro" is a dumb statement. You can't say pyro is the weakest class and then say "Oh 2 of the best damage classes have to gang up in order to kill him" 

 

You can't say "If you're outmatched against a pyro run away." and then not expect a pyro to do the same thing if he finds himself outmatched? Who's to say the pyro just doesn't back up enough to get the soldier and demo both in his FOV to airblast with ease, or just run away?

 

Pyro isn't weak at all. The nerfs were well-deserved, and the class is still fairly strong. Picking out certain scenarios to point out flaws can be done with any class, that doesn't make them weak. It's called balance.

What? a scout can outrun a pyro even if walking backwards with ease. A med shouldn't even bother facing the pyro and just run away to the nearest healthpack. A soldier/demo should jump away, explosive jumping is incredibly powerful. And no, the point of spy is that even if you do watch the flank he can sneak by because he is invisible. that's how you play spy. 

And why is the heavy still in the same spot? in the open, he can easily out dm the pyro. inside, he can hide behind a corner. 

And you don't have to gang up, in a choke against an expert at w+m2 all you have to is dodge a few of his reflected rockets and he can't do shit because he'll be out of ammo. after which the pyro is an easy pick.

once again, pyro is only slower than heavy, all other classes can catch a pyro with ease/shouldn't be interested in the 1v1 (spy, engi, sniper)

 

Pyro is by far the weakest class in the game. The only reason any serious team would pick a pyro is either because they're forced to (highlander) or to hold a chokey last at uber disadvantage. As I said before, pyro is only situationally decent against good players, although against an unaware and terrible team a pyro can indeed be very strong (i.e. soldiers that keep shooting rockets at a pyro that is good at airblasting to get their team killed).

Pyro has no role in which he is the best, and is not a generalist either. He has no good long range weapons, but neither does a heavy. a pyro however only has ~60% of a heavy's health and actually gets beaten on mid/close range by an aware heavy. If and only if a pyro ambushes somebody can he kill them, and a good team won't just walk blindly into a room. you check. Again, against people that know what they're doing a pyro is incredibly weak. And balance should be made around people that know what they're doing, not around unaware people

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This thread turned from a "I'd like to know what's what since I haven't played in awhile" to an old wounds pyro thread.

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well as to pyro v scouts, sure they run faster, but if I can catch them with an airblast they're usually screwed

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What? a scout can outrun a pyro even if walking backwards with ease. A med shouldn't even bother facing the pyro and just run away to the nearest healthpack. A soldier/demo should jump away, explosive jumping is incredibly powerful. And no, the point of spy is that even if you do watch the flank he can sneak by because he is invisible. that's how you play spy. 

And why is the heavy still in the same spot? in the open, he can easily out dm the pyro. inside, he can hide behind a corner. 

And you don't have to gang up, in a choke against an expert at w+m2 all you have to is dodge a few of his reflected rockets and he can't do shit because he'll be out of ammo. after which the pyro is an easy pick.

once again, pyro is only slower than heavy, all other classes can catch a pyro with ease/shouldn't be interested in the 1v1 (spy, engi, sniper)

 

Pyro is by far the weakest class in the game. The only reason any serious team would pick a pyro is either because they're forced to (highlander) or to hold a chokey last at uber disadvantage. As I said before, pyro is only situationally decent against good players, although against an unaware and terrible team a pyro can indeed be very strong (i.e. soldiers that keep shooting rockets at a pyro that is good at airblasting to get their team killed).

Pyro has no role in which he is the best, and is not a generalist either. He has no good long range weapons, but neither does a heavy. a pyro however only has ~60% of a heavy's health and actually gets beaten on mid/close range by an aware heavy. If and only if a pyro ambushes somebody can he kill them, and a good team won't just walk blindly into a room. you check. Again, against people that know what they're doing a pyro is incredibly weak. And balance should be made around people that know what they're doing, not around unaware people

Once again, pointing out ideal situations where pyro would be bad in order to say he's weak. 

 

If a pyro walks to mid and a scout is there, the pyro isn't gonna W+M1 and try to catch the scout. That will never happen unless they're F2P. Saying otherwise is unrealistic to the game. He would more than likely find a way to get closer without being in sight. From there some M2 and M1 spam is all he needs. If the scout notices, then it's a fair 1v1 fight. 

 

A heavy and pyro walk to mid. The pyro once again isn't just gonna W+M1 in order to have a DPS contest with the heavy, he'll lose. What he will do, is either wait for someone else to deal with it, or spam flares. Once again, fair 1v1. If one gets the jump on the other, of course they'll win. My example was if the pyro finds a heavy around a corner of sorts (which happens often). If the heavy tries to peak the corner, he's still open for a flare. Pyro has stock equipped? He walks away. 

 

You literally said 2v1 a demo and soldier can easily beat a pyro in your previous post. That's obvious. If you're in a choke, it's pretty difficult to dodge a well reflected rocket. We're talking about experienced players, not F2Ps. And where are you getting your speed stats from?? http://i.imgur.com/n2pvewt.pngPyro is definitely not the slowest class.

 

There's been plenty of times in my HL career where i've seen a pyro carry a team. Good reflects and afterburn as well as being a stupid hard counter to spies is not weak at all. If a well-used pyro was so bad, Valve would have noticed and given a buff by now. 

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I uh, thanks for the discussion people. I guess playing pyro just isn't good anymore.

Ok, I will still run a jag engi I suppose.

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