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How to go from $6000 to $0


Long Live Alex

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So 2 days after the LMAOBOX ban, many  accounts have been banned and various users have also been trade banned too.

 

Unluckily for this person, they where caught using LMAOBOX, and went from from a $6000 backpack, to an un-tradable backpack, making it worthless ($0). 

 

http://backpack.tf/u/76561198010776774

 

Do you guys know of anyone else with a more valuable backpack then this person who got banned coz of LMAOBOX?

 

 

 

 

 

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I hadnt followed this very carefully, but is there a time where these people can trade again or are these items forever lost?

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I hadnt followed this very carefully, but is there a time where these people can trade again or are these items forever lost?

They are lost forever.

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Hmm it would be interesting to see the legal side of things.

 

After all those items "belong" to you, be it virtual or not they're property. This has been seen on major bitcoin legal cases, were virtual "things" are considered property of value.

 

If I had upwards of $3k frozen, I'd be sure to call a lawyer if I got VAC banned. One thing is cheating and the other is property.

 

Maybe wouldn't pursue it in the U.S due to legal fees, but under other countries jurisdiction this could be cheap and easy.

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Hmm it would be interesting to see the legal side of things.

 

After all those items "belong" to you, be it virtual or not they're property. This has been seen on major bitcoin legal cases, were virtual "things" are considered property of value.

 

If I had upwards of $3k frozen, I'd be sure to call a lawyer if I got VAC banned. One thing is cheating and the other is property.

 

Maybe wouldn't pursue it in the U.S due to legal fees, but under other countries jurisdiction this could be cheap and easy.

That's a legal case you lose very quickly I'd think lol. The moment you sign up for Steam, you agree to all of Steams User Agreements, Subscriber Agreements, and whatever else they put in there. Im sure Valve is well aware that people have inventories that far exceed what an outsider may expect. Generally, I'd bet that they have something in their terms that specifically says that putting these inventories at risk gives Valve the right to restrict your use of the marketplace. Using cheats to beat people in a game would be something that probably falls into that category. Even in the Subscriber Agreement, you can skim over and find:

F. Ownership of Content and Services

All title, ownership rights and intellectual property rights in and to the Content and Services and any and all copies thereof, are owned by Valve and/or its or its affiliates’ licensors. All rights are reserved, except as expressly stated herein. The Content and Services is protected by copyright laws, international copyright treaties and conventions and other laws. The Content and Services contains certain licensed materials and Valve’s and its affiliates’ licensors may protect their rights in the event of any violation of this Agreement.

G. Restrictions on Use of Content and Services

You may not use the Content and Services for any purpose other than the permitted access to Steam and your Subscriptions, and to make personal, non-commercial use of your Subscriptions, except as otherwise permitted by this Agreement or applicable Subscription Terms. Except as otherwise permitted under this Agreement (including any Subscription Terms or Rules of Use), or under applicable law notwithstanding these restrictions, you may not, in whole or in part, copy, photocopy, reproduce, publish, distribute, translate, reverse engineer, derive source code from, modify, disassemble, decompile, create derivative works based on, or remove any proprietary notices or labels from the Content and Services or any software accessed via Steam without the prior consent, in writing, of Valve.

D. Trading and Sales of Subscriptions Between Subscribers

Steam may include one or more features or sites that allow Subscribers to trade, sell or purchase certain types of Subscriptions (for example, license rights to virtual items) with, to or from other Subscribers (“Subscription Marketplacesâ€). An example of a Subscription Marketplace is the Steam Community Market. By using or participating in Subscription Marketplaces, you authorize Valve, on its own behalf or as an agent or licensee of any third-party creator or publisher of the applicable Subscriptions in your Account, to transfer those Subscriptions from your Account in order to give effect to any trade or sale you make.

...(Blah blah blah)

You understand and acknowledge that Valve may decide to cease operation of any Subscription Marketplace, change the fees that it charges or change the terms or features of the Steam Subscription Marketplace. Valve shall have no liability to you because of any inability to trade Subscriptions in the Steam Trading Marketplace, including because of discontinuation or changes in the terms, features or eligibility requirements of any Subscription Marketplace.

4. ONLINE CONDUCT, CHEATING AND ILLEGAL BEHAVIOR

You agree that you will be personally responsible for any use of your Account with your login and/or password and for all of the communication and activity on Steam that results from such use of your Account and of Steam, and that Valve is not responsible of the use made of your Account and of all communications and activities on Steam resulting from the use of your Account. If you believe that the confidentiality of your login and/or password may have been compromised, you must notify Valve via the support form (https://support.steampowered.com/newticket.php) without any delay.

Your online conduct and interaction with other Subscribers should be guided by common sense and basic etiquette. Specific requirements may also be found in the Steam Online Conduct rules at http://steampowered.com/index.php?area=online_conduct, other Rules of Use, the Subscription Terms, or in terms of use imposed by third parties who host particular games or other services.

Steam and the Content and Services may include functionality designed to identify software or hardware processes or functionality that may give a player an unfair competitive advantage when playing multiplayer versions of any Content and Services or modifications of Content and Services (“Cheatsâ€). You agree that you will not create Cheats or assist third parties in any way to create or use Cheats. You agree that you will not directly or indirectly disable, circumvent, or otherwise interfere with the operation of software designed to prevent or report the use of Cheats. You acknowledge and agree that either Valve or any online multiplayer host may refuse to allow you to participate in certain online multiplayer games if you use Cheats in connection with Steam or the Content and Services. Further, you acknowledge and agree that an online multiplayer host may report your use of Cheats to Valve, and Valve may communicate your history of use of Cheats to other online multiplayer hosts. Valve may terminate your Account or a particular Subscription for any conduct or activity that Valve believes is illegal, constitutes a Cheat, or otherwise negatively affects the enjoyment of Steam by other Subscribers. You acknowledge that Valve is not required to provide you notice before terminating your Subscriptions(s) and/or Account, but it may choose to do so.

You may not use Cheats, automation software (bots), mods, hacks, or any other unauthorized third-party software, to modify or automate any Subscription Marketplace process.

 

TL;DR

Valve only allows us to trade items as license rights. The items WE own are actually owned by Valve, therefore we do not have full ownership over these items. By agreeing to these terms, Valve allows you to trade these licenses (items) between different users as often as you want. However, if you break the terms in these agreements Valve has the right to freeze your trading rights and practically make sure you're unable to exchange their licenses again. 

 

I wonder if Steam cares for things like Backpack.tf automatic, based off that last red part there too. 

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TL;DR

Valve only allows us to trade items as license rights. The items WE own are actually owned by Valve, therefore we do not have full ownership over these items. By agreeing to these terms, Valve allows you to trade these licenses (items) between different users as often as you want. However, if you break the terms in these agreements Valve has the right to freeze your trading rights and practically make sure you're unable to exchange their licenses again. 

 

One thing is owning the copyright, and licenses to the items as a whole and other thing is the item itself. There most definitely can be a legal case from either scenario.

One: if Valve owns the item then it's false advertisement and acting in bad faith by using the terms "buy an item", since you're not actually buying the item, only having it licensed to you.

Second: in your the T&A's you quoted they don't specify the ownership of individual virtual items, therefore you can certainly own an item, therefore having it frozen is over an unrelated issue is acting in bad faith and illegal retention.

 

The problem lies is the real world monetary value an item has created, and that's why I cited Bitcoin, it's a simple number that now is recognized by some countries as a currency after having acquired value and popularity.

 

But oh well, I cash out every month just to avoid the uncertainties.

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One thing is owning the copyright, and licenses to the items as a whole and other thing is the item itself. There most definitely can be a legal case from either scenario.

One: if Valve owns the item then it's false advertisement and acting in bad faith by using the terms "buy an item", since you're not actually buying the item, only having it licensed to you.

Second: in your the T&A's you quoted they don't specify the ownership of individual virtual items, therefore you can certainly own an item, therefore having it frozen is over an unrelated issue is acting in bad faith and illegal retention.

 

The problem lies is the real world monetary value an item has created, and that's why I cited Bitcoin, it's a simple number that now is recognized by some countries as a currency after having acquired value and popularity.

 

But oh well, I cash out every month just to avoid the uncertainties.

What I'm trying to say is what I think Valve is doing is tying the licenses and other intellectual property to the items we own. So I guess one way to view it is like "owning" a car after leasing it, just without the payments in this case. You "own" the car, but the bank actually has the rights to it. The line that makes me believe this is right around the middle in red:

"Steam may include one or more features or sites that allow Subscribers to trade, sell or purchase certain types of Subscriptions (for example, license rights to virtual items)"

We (the traders) are what they refer to as the "subscribers" and we own the "Subscriptions" to the items we have. But in reality, Valve owns the system we trade these items with. We all know that by now since Escrow came along and put the wait times on unverified accounts. But when you break the rules of the Subscriber Agreement, Valve pretty much says that they have the right to totally cut someone off from using the system they own. So whether or not we, the traders, actually own our items is one thing. But Valve owning the entire system of things is another almost undeniable fact.  

If you scroll down to the Limited Liability section of the Subscriber Agreement as well, you can see what Valve is not liable for any losses associated with anyone's account. So if a user acts with negligence by using cheats, which violates the Subscriber Agreement on the spot, Valve won't be liable for any losses associated with someone's account. That would include items, games, and whatever else may have value I'd assume. 

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I'm 100% positive that if you asked someone high up enough at Valve, they will give you an explanation as to why they're protected in this situation.  There's no way they didn't hash this out a long time ago, even before the mannconomy update ever hit.  However, that doesn't mean it can't be challenged legally.  The idea of ownership where digital items are concerned hasn't been fully developed yet in legal terms.  It probably won't be until a banned user sues a company like Valve and the decision becomes case law, but that's somewhat hard to imagine since legal battles against big corporations are 1) lengthy 2) expensive and 3) emotionally draining.  In other words, they're not in what you might call the average TF2 player's milieu.  

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Doesn't this make one of the Team captain unusuals gone forever

Burning team captain

 

It was a level 3, of which there are something like 13 dupes, so it's not such a huge deal.  A clean TC would be a different story. 

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One thing is owning the copyright, and licenses to the items as a whole and other thing is the item itself. There most definitely can be a legal case from either scenario.

One: if Valve owns the item then it's false advertisement and acting in bad faith by using the terms "buy an item", since you're not actually buying the item, only having it licensed to you.

Second: in your the T&A's you quoted they don't specify the ownership of individual virtual items, therefore you can certainly own an item, therefore having it frozen is over an unrelated issue is acting in bad faith and illegal retention.

 

The problem lies is the real world monetary value an item has created, and that's why I cited Bitcoin, it's a simple number that now is recognized by some countries as a currency after having acquired value and popularity.

 

But oh well, I cash out every month just to avoid the uncertainties.

 

Valve can refuse you the rights to use their services for whatever reason they want, it's their service, especially when you violate their TOS...

You literally have no case at all. It's like taking the state to court because you lost your job after getting convicted of X crime - if you don't want to get arrested don't fucking commit the crime.

Valve are lenient enough as it is with their bans, everything they sell to you is in the form of a license, which means it can be revoked for whatever reason they desire. They could just as easily wipe all your games if you get banned.

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Valve can refuse you the rights to use their services for whatever reason they want, it's their service, especially when you violate their TOS...

You literally have no case at all. It's like taking the state to court because you lost your job after getting convicted of X crime - if you don't want to get arrested don't fucking commit the crime.

Valve are lenient enough as it is with their bans, everything they sell to you is in the form of a license, which means it can be revoked for whatever reason they desire. They could just as easily wipe all your games if you get banned.

I dont think they could wipe out your game library. If I had to guess, the game developers probably allow Valve to distribute their games through the Steam Store. This would mean that Steam is merely a retailer for the games and it's not up to them to decide whether or not they can revoke someone's purchase of a game. Though it's something to look into. There's probably different contracts that Valve has with each developer that have different terms. 

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I dont think they could wipe out your game library. If I had to guess, the game developers probably allow Valve to distribute their games through the Steam Store. This would mean that Steam is merely a retailer for the games and it's not up to them to decide whether or not they can revoke someone's purchase of a game. Though it's something to look into. There's probably different contracts that Valve has with each developer that have different terms. 

 

Valve definitely can revoke permissions to play games if they feel like it, look at revoked gifts for example. Valve can fully disable your account too if they want - preventing you from logging in at all, however this is really uncommon.

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Valve definitely can revoke permissions to play games if they feel like it, look at revoked gifts for example. Valve can fully disable your account too if they want - preventing you from logging in at all, however this is really uncommon.

is there someone who actually had that happen to them? lol, that sucks 

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I dont think they could wipe out your game library.

 

Happens all the time with the consoles. If you get your account permabanned on Microsoft, Sony, or Nintendo's networks, all purchases associated with the account are lost as well.

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Happens all the time with the consoles. If you get your account permabanned on Microsoft, Sony, or Nintendo's networks, all purchases associated with the account are lost as well.

Can confirm this.

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I dont think they could wipe out your game library.

Apparently different since steam is considered a service/shop so they essentially bypass alot of things. Everything you have on steam isn't technically yours youre basically renting it. If you break the terms and conditions they can refuse you service and hence you "lose" your access to the games.

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