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Bot's having an unfair advantage


I see dead digletts

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There's a well known bot (maybe others) who seems to be able to offer on keys before anyone else gets a chance to do so.

 

I've read in threads on these forums that the bot uses a backpack.tf api so that it can see the offers as soon as they come up and beat everyone else to making an offer.

 

I know a lot of the rules are in place here to give everyone a fair chance and I'm wondering whether this is something that has been overlooked. Clearly this bot (owned by one person) has an unfair advantage over every other person using backpack.tf trying to buy keys on the classifieds. Thoughts?

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/tf2/comments/1e03tn/iama_steam_market_bot_writer_who_recently_got/

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Same situation here, but with BP.TF Classifieds, and that Steam banned the user. In retrospect, (as said by others) there's nothing stopping you from making a bot that should be able to do the things you want. In fact, it does help out the buyers and/or sellers by being efficient, but as experienced from you, you're unable to keep up with the trades and the automation.

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True hypocrisy right here. Calls me out for using an ad hominen argument but he himself uses one. (Side note: it's funny to see he takes the time to look at people's profiles to find a flaw).

 

Then proceeds to put an end to the discussion because no one agreed with him.

 

People nowadays...

 

Lol. you really needed to read those articles. You seem to be offended because I was trying to get you to add some value to the discussion. This was also pointed out by one other.

 

You are correct in that I was thinking of closing out the thread because I think it's run it's course. Is there a problem with that? If so what?

 

Did you by any chance read peoples responses before posting your latest off topic post. By my count, there seems to be 4 people in favour of my point of view (that it is unfair), 4 people against, and 1 ambivalent.

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https://www.reddit.com/r/tf2/comments/1e03tn/iama_steam_market_bot_writer_who_recently_got/

^

Same situation here, but with BP.TF Classifieds, and that Steam banned the user. In retrospect, (as said by others) there's nothing stopping you from making a bot that should be able to do the things you want. In fact, it does help out the buyers and/or sellers by being efficient, but as experienced from you, you're unable to keep up with the trades and the automation.

 

Thanks for the response. I had heard about Steam banning that user (but forgotten about it). It'd be interesting to know whether the advantage to the bot on this site is intentional or an unintended consequence of providing other functionality.

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Did you by any chance read peoples responses before posting your latest off topic post. By my count, there seems to be 4 people in favour of my point of view (that it is unfair), 4 people against, and 1 ambivalent.

 

Look at the likes rather than the comments, or both if you'd like. It's quite clear the 80/20 principle applies here, 80% don't agree with you and 20% do.

 

And let this be my last comment, and last time I check the thread, as this thread went from funny with your argument to sad due to the fact that you can't think outside the box.

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3 years in school for diploma in computing, 4 years for comp engineering, comp science, game design etc degree and we can't use the skill set we learned? Even north korea doesn't do that

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3 years in school for diploma in computing, 4 years for comp engineering, comp science, game design etc degree and we can't use the skill set we learned? Even north korea doesn't do that

 

See that's where we differ. You know I'm questioning how this affects the backpack.tf user population. You appear to be purely thinking about yourself and your wants. 

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See that's where we differ. You know I'm questioning how this affects the backpack.tf user population. You appear to be purely thinking about yourself and your wants. 

 

No YOU are thinking about yourself. People are different and have different skills, you clearly envy someone else's skills and refuse to learn them.

Your argument is basically saying 'Please stop being better than me'. Should everyone be forced to communicate in grunts because not everyone speaks russian? Should everyone be forced to eat raw meat cause not everyone can cook?

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Look at the likes rather than the comments, or both if you'd like. It's quite clear the 80/20 principle applies here, 80% don't agree with you and 20% do.

 

And let this be my last comment, and last time I check the thread, as this thread went from funny with your argument to sad due to the fact that you can't think outside the box.

 

You know I can see who put's the likes right? Putting likes on comments and then using those as "proof" of your position is not the most intelligent thing I've seen recently.

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No YOU are thinking about yourself. People are different and have different skills, you clearly envy someone else's skills and refuse to learn them.

Your argument is basically saying 'Please stop being better than me'. Should everyone be forced to communicate in grunts because not everyone speaks russian? Should everyone be forced to eat raw meat cause not everyone can cook?

 

Interesting comment. Putting something in BOLD obviously makes it true? I find it interesting how you can "clearly" jump to conclusions about my envy or otherwise. That really weakens your arguments. Maybe you could debate the topic instead?

 

My initial question (which I'll state again) is whether the advantage the bot has is intentional (or maybe something that was overlooked).

 

There are a number of examples which make this question reasonable.

1. Steam has banned code which gives select users advantages over other users. You can see the reference yourself.

2. TF2WH has banned code which gives users trading advantages over other users.

3. TF2Outpost has banned scripts which gives users bump advantage unless they have paid for that advantage.

 

 

So back to the original question: Is the fact that 1 bot owned by 1 user having trading advantages over the rest of the backpack population an overlooked issue. If the makers of backpack.tf intended that then in my opinion that is the end of the question. If it was an unintended consequence then I have raised it for attention. As I have stated before, my personal opinion is that it is an unfair advantage. You seem to have a problem with someone having an opinion different to yourself. I can see how that would make life difficult for you.

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^ So? not every countries are the same, not every person is the same. Enforcing 1 ideal mode of function is not how the world works.

 

Outpost doesn't ban bots entirely either so you are guaranteed to have some form of advantage, same goes for steam, you just can't manipulate steam market trading, didn't mention you can't use it elsewhere.

 

Not to mention i don't see any proof of people offering on things faster than others lol

 

Edit: I am pretty sure if you messed with the bp.tf system and included premium features even when you are not premium, you are liable for a punishment. It's the same as outpost,bazaar and other trading sites.

 

I don't see why they would add an additional feature/rule for people to follow if it's not exploiting their system

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Outpost doesn't ban bots entirely....

 

I think you might not have read my initial question? What I am saying is that there is at least 1 bot that makes nearly all of the key trades because it uses the backpack.tf api to see new trades and therefore beats most people to making an offer. My question is whether that is an unintentional consequence of making the API available. I use a bot myself to sell things.

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Ok,I've read through all your post, and you need to improve on your composition slightly. 1stly, your title isn't concise enough, i initially understood it as any user using bots has an unfair advantage.

 

2nd,  "There are a number of examples which make this question reasonable.

1. Steam has banned code which gives select users advantages over other users. You can see the reference yourself.

2. TF2WH has banned code which gives users trading advantages over other users.

3. TF2Outpost has banned scripts which gives users bump advantage unless they have paid for that advantage.

" This has no clear reference since you didn't bother to explain what is similar between the examples you quoted and the issue you raised. Is it that bots that gives features entitled to premium users only are unfair? Or bots that gives advantages to the BUYERS are unfair? Another concern would be the concept that you are vocalizing would it be considering only the buyer's and other buyer's perspective? because from what i know, steam banned steam market bot users doesn't  just stems from buyers having an unfair advantage when purchasing stuff, it is also concerning other sellers' mistakes of putting up for the wrong price and do not have any time to change their order (This implementation was placed before the steam market email confirmation was established)

 

Now, if it's just the buyers side of problems, I don't think it's viable to implement such solution(?) because it does provide known benefits to the sellers without repercussion like putting up a wrong offer and traded your item away too quickly for you to do anything(don't bring automatic into this because that's an option, not compulsory). Also, it does not affect the company/host of this website negatively. 

 

Below are some points i made regarding intangible goods exchange

 

One point to consider would be there isn't a lot of known popular sites that deals with issues like this that does not affects the majority considering that trade offers =/= automatic,quick,uncontrollable trades after you put them up. Other websites deals with issues that infringe on their subscription/premium features which is an exploit on their system and deters potential subscribers, websites that enforce a "totally fair" playground for traders tends to not do that well because they are the minority like for example tf2tp. For example, outpost banning scripts that provide premium features to non- premium users since it's logical that it provides another method of acquiring what that can be gotten through payment only. This however is not pertaining to the root of the issue that you raised since it viewed from the website hosters' perspectives, yet must be something to take into concern and of top priority given that you are requesting a change on their website.

 

Next, Sellers are not receiving any negative impact from the issue that you are trying to raise or at least not any that i can think of. Instead, they could be much happier getting their stuff sold faster. They certainly do not face consequences from mistakes in the orders they put up, and can amend it anytime. Not to mention there are third party admins to "amend" their wrong buy/sell orders. Being a multiple step trade confirmation, i can't see it being any less safe/profitable for the seller even with your issue around. There are debatable points if you choose to bring tf2wh into this but tf2wh is automated and the issue you raised conflicts with the company's profits, and since the company is the seller itself, it would be logical to implement a rule that could be protective in multiple entities. For example, no matter how many mistakes a seller made while listing their sell order on bptf, they have the secondary choice to accept/decline the trade offer on steam itself but it's different from automated bot trading sites such as tf2wh,scrap.tf etc etc where their bots are handling the primary and secondary checks thus it could be exploited to the buyer's advantage and deters other users from actually using their websites.

 

Again, buyers using the bot have no clear advantage over other buyers because the trade procedure is not a 1 check automated process, sellers need to confirm on steam as well + if they have the steam email confirmation up, it is another check. Not to mention that i can't think of any popular site which bans these people that does not infringe on other party they directly have connection with in the trade (ie the company in charge of the trade system and the other party in the trade). These are skills acquired via courses etc and people actually pay for these people to work for them. The bots that you are talking about are actually being bought/sold and IT IS NOT ILLEGAL in a lot of sites so i don't see why they have to make it illegal here given that it is a majority stand that it remains legal. For example, outpost,bazaar,csgolounge,dota2lounge doesn't ban bots entirely and those are some big trading sites regarding steam games. The trade system is universal because it's on steam, and the issue you raised probably exist in each and every single one of the website that i listed. In fact, there are people paying to buy/sell bots with certain functions/features that definitely gives the buyers/sellers an advantage and it has been allowed for the past 7-10 years i don't see why you should be punishing people now. 

 

All in all, so long not a majority is affected negatively, does not have any long term/short term issues or problems in other entities/perspectives such as monetary benefits,ethical concerns regarding work or life etc etc and  affects only a minority. It would not be a main concern.

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Thanks for your response. I agree that the title could have been better worded. I tried to change after submitting it, but I don't think that's possible.

 

I hadn't considered the fact that most sellers would have to confirm the offer which does give a window of opportunity for other buyers to offer on keys. However because the bot sees all trades via the backpack.tf api and gets to offer first I'm not sure that mitigates the advantage the bot has. In my (albeit anecdotal) experience of buying keys, I find that the key is usually gone before I can make an offer or that the trade offer fails as the seller has accepted an offer and the key has gone. In nearly every case where I have had the opportunity to speak to the seller they have confirmed the sale has gone to the specific bot which I know has access to all sales via the API.

 

I also can see the advantage to sellers as you mentioned because they get a quick sale. I'm not sure that makes up for the disadvantage to buyers in my opinion. There are hundreds (?) of items for sale with the quick sale advantage not being available to sellers of them.

 

As I have already mentioned, I have no problems with bots per se. I find them a great way of expanding the marketplace and being able to buy and/or sell things without needing to be at your computer. If it was a level playing field then auto offer's would be great. The fact that it's not and 1 bot seems to take most of the key trades seems unfair and hence why I raised the question.

 

All in all, thanks for your response and the time you took to put it together. We just differ in opinion as to whether it's ok or not and I'm perfectly fine with people having a different opinion than me. You've given me some food for thought. The one thing that would close this out in my mind would be whether this is an unintended consequence of providing the functionality of the API.

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As a coder myself (mostly C#), I find the backpack.tf API to be extremely useful. I'm currently trying to write a bot myself, mostly for the challenge of being able to make something like that. When I write code, I write code because it helps me learn more of what I can do with coding and how to do it. Now, before anybody here tries to pull me into a flame war by calling me selfish or evil for trying to code a bot, hear me out:

 

The thing is, there's a lot involved in maintaining a bot, even if you bought it instead of wrote it. You have to make sure each of the bot's trades went through as they are supposed to, you have to make sure your bot doesn't overstock or try to create an offer that makes no sense, etc. If your bot uses steam chat to do real-time trading, there's even more that can go wrong that you have to be sure of.

 

For people who are trading with bots, the bots provide a valuable service. Traders like being able to have the convenience of having their trades go through immediately. If two people are selling the same thing for the same price, but one ensures it will get it to you faster, you'll probably buy from the faster one. The thing is, bots only buy and sell at set prices (unless they're really sophisticated, which probably isn't the case here). Sometimes, Usually, if there is a bot trading, there are almost always human traders selling for less. Very rarely do bots sell for less (or buy for more) than the best-priced lister, because if they do, there usually is no profit margin from doing these trades systematically (which is what bots are for). Since backpack.tf classifieds default to sorting cheapest to most expensive for sell orders, and the reverse for buy orders, you'll always find the best deal, which probably isn't a bot.

 

As I am trying to write a bot myself, I have come across plenty of issues that API bots face:

  • The Steam API goes down a lot. It's guaranteed to be down for part of every Tuesday (for maintenance), and it also goes down very often for other reasons, including while I am writing this post.
  • The backpack.tf API (price data and marketplace price data) can only be queried every 5-10 minutes, so there's quite a bit of time when something changes before the bot would even be aware of it.
  • backpack.tf has no API for getting classifieds for a specific item. The only way to get that data into a bot is to manually scrape webpages (pull data out of HTML), but that has another limitation, which leads me to my next point
  • Since backpack.tf is a well-designed and quite secure website, it will lock you out for a short time if you (or your bot) visits too many of their webpages at once. I'm pretty sure this is to prevent DDoS attacks. This is also true for the Steam API, which is even more sensitive when it comes to locking you out.

 

Bot traders are very different from auto-bumping scripts, as bots are legitimate and operate within the confines of the system (TF2Outpost and backpack.tf), whereas auto-bumping scripts operate outside the confines of the system to get an unfair advantage. I'm not a huge fan of the fact that Outpost premium users get auto-bump, but it's their money and they're the ones using (losing) it. Since Outpost trades are sorted by most recently bumped, instead of by price, auto-bump scripts are absolutely an unfair advantage. Bots only trade with people that see their trade offers on steam, people that see their listings, or with other bots (which is kinda cool if you think about it).

 

About bots that are able to send trade offers: The trade offer goes only as fast as the recipient of the trade. Since bots literally cannot respond to new listings instantly (that's not how coding works), the bot has to check up on listings regularly, usually every 5-10 minutes, or less if you have a really good internet connection. Combine those two together, there is still a noticeable amount of time between when an item is listed and when the trade goes through.

 

Essentially this boils down to a question of philosophy: Is it fair to use skills you have to gain an advantage over others that lack that skill? (Specifically, an advantage in profit.) I myself say yes, but others may very reasonably say no. I say yes because people's skills in different things vary greatly. That's one of the many things that makes everybody unique. An example of this in the real world is interviewing for a job. Since it's in the employer's best interest to hire the candidate that is best suited for the job, the interview process allows employers to see who makes a good candidate, and who makes a bad one. Part of the hiring process is finding out who has the most skills relevant to the job. Would it be unfair for an employer to hire someone with more web development skills for the job of webmaster than someone who lacks web development skills? Would it be unfair if the webmaster job pays more than a regular programmer job?

 

Lastly, I must say that anybody can learn to program. I started learning C# when I was 13, and all of my knowledge is from looking stuff up on the internet and in books. I have still yet to pay anything for any of the number of tools I use when programming. Visual Studio and pretty much every other C# IDE is completely free. Another good language to learn is Java, which is very similar to C#. There are several major Java IDE's that are cross-platform and very well-designed. If you want learn to program, all it takes is some time and effort. There are plenty of tutorials out there for both languages to help learn the basics and get used to the syntax of the language. One of the simplest things you can make with C# that will help make a profit in TF2 is a bump timer. All it does is beep every 30 minutes to remind me to bump my Outpost trades. It took me about half an hour to make, and has greatly increased how many trade offers I get for the items I list on Outpost. (Note that this differs from an auto-bump script since I still am clicking the bump buttons myself, and I also have to reset the timer myself.)

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