I see dead digletts Posted October 25, 2015 Share Posted October 25, 2015 There's a well known bot (maybe others) who seems to be able to offer on keys before anyone else gets a chance to do so. I've read in threads on these forums that the bot uses a backpack.tf api so that it can see the offers as soon as they come up and beat everyone else to making an offer. I know a lot of the rules are in place here to give everyone a fair chance and I'm wondering whether this is something that has been overlooked. Clearly this bot (owned by one person) has an unfair advantage over every other person using backpack.tf trying to buy keys on the classifieds. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julia Posted October 25, 2015 Share Posted October 25, 2015 From the seller's perspective, it's a great way to get rid of keys in an instant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I see dead digletts Posted October 25, 2015 Author Share Posted October 25, 2015 True...I can see that point. But is it fair that one person has an unfair advantage over every other person? Fairness seems to be behind most of the rules here, and keys are never on the queue for very long anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Дебра Posted October 25, 2015 Share Posted October 25, 2015 True...I can see that point. But is it fair that one person has an unfair advantage over every other person? Fairness seems to be behind most of the rules here, and keys are never on the queue for very long anyway. But it is fair isn't it? Everyone had the chance to make a bot for it, is it really right to punish people using their initiative instead of doing the same boring methods as everyone else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royal Posted October 25, 2015 Share Posted October 25, 2015 True...I can see that point. But is it fair that one person has an unfair advantage over every other person? Fairness seems to be behind most of the rules here, and keys are never on the queue for very long anyway.There are actually 2 well-known bots here. And while it isn't really fair, I don't think backpack.tf can do anything about it. When I list a key on classifieds, I usually try to accept every trade offer I receive, even if they were sent some minutes after I traded with a bot and took it down. Since keys are mostly stable now, it's not a big deal to me (I'd need the ref sooner or later anyway). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I see dead digletts Posted October 25, 2015 Author Share Posted October 25, 2015 Well in my opinion it doesn't come down to initiative. It's not a level playing field when most people can't write a bot that does this. There are some sites like outpost and tf2wh that ban people getting an unfair advantage with script or code. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Дебра Posted October 25, 2015 Share Posted October 25, 2015 It's not a level playing field when most people can't write a bot that does this. Everyone can learn. Why should people be punished for having extra skills that you don't? That's like banning rocket jumping in comp TF2 because new players won't know how to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puddingkip Posted October 25, 2015 Share Posted October 25, 2015 How is the advantage unfair? Everybody has access to the same stuff (I think). If one person is better at working with the same tools he has an advantage, sure. But a fair advantage as he worked for it. Nobody is stopping you from writing a bit, or hiring somebody to write a bot for you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I see dead digletts Posted October 25, 2015 Author Share Posted October 25, 2015 Sure...So I think what you're saying is that anyone who doesn't want to be disadvantaged should go away and learn to write a bot that interrogates the backpack.tf api. Everyone should do all this work just so they can have the same chances as the one person who has already written that bot. Maybe another option would be to remove the one person's advantage rather than expecting everyone else to do a lot of work to just have an even chance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Discovery Posted October 25, 2015 Share Posted October 25, 2015 Well in my opinion it doesn't come down to initiative. It's not a level playing field when most people can't write a bot that does this. There are some sites like outpost and tf2wh that ban people getting an unfair advantage with script or code. afaik Outpost only bans non-premium users using autobump scripts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Дебра Posted October 25, 2015 Share Posted October 25, 2015 Everyone should do all this work just so they can have the same chances as the one person who has already written that bot. Maybe another option would be to remove the one person's advantage rather than expecting everyone else to do a lot of work to just have an even chance? It's not the bot writer's fault you don't have the same skills as him. Think of it like applying for a job that requires knowledge on coding when you don't possess the skill and being mad that they chose someone else who did have the skill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotWarlizard Posted October 25, 2015 Share Posted October 25, 2015 Well in my opinion it doesn't come down to initiative. It's not a level playing field when most people can't write a bot that does this. And this right here is what makes the difference between successful and unsuccessful people. Successful people never cry about something being unfair, they instead take risk, invest countless hours, and learn a new skill to become someone successful. Just because someone decided to learn to code, and spend hours writing a bot (or even paid for it) doesn't mean it's unfair, if anything you should be thankful because they did something called: innovation. Innovation is essential to any successful civilization, country, website, etc. Look at scrap.tf for example, are they unfair to people just because they provide an instant service that others can´t, so it kills competition? Simple answer: no. In summary: stop being a kid who cries because life in unfair, don't expect your parents, the government, or anyone to give you everything you want because it's simply "unfair". Work for it. I hope this comes as a lesson if you are a young person, you'll need it if you want to get anywhere in life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I see dead digletts Posted October 25, 2015 Author Share Posted October 25, 2015 It's interesting to see you have such a low definition of innovation. Writing some code using an existing API to have an unfair advantage over the rest of the user population isn't innovation. Having the idea for the website, designing it, building it, and providing the API is innovation in my opinion. Oh, (and "NotWarLizard") using an ad hominen argument usually says something more about the writer than the person being written about. I know I've learnt something Just to summarise how I see it: 1. Most people are not key traders.They come to backpack to purchase keys when they need them. 2. As most people are not key traders it is not reasonable to expect that they should create (or purchase) a bot just for the purchase of 1 or 2 keys a day/week etc. 2. It's not unreasonable to expect to have an even chance at purchasing against everyone else using the website 3. There is 1 person who has used the backpack.tf API to have an advantage over every other user when buying keys. Arguments from above are that it is ok for one person to have an advantage over every other user because the person who owns the bot is "skilled" or "has innovated". Haven't seen any other arguments that supports this position. There are numerous skills that don't give someone a free pass to do whatever they want. eg: skilled hacker, skilled martial artist. It usually comes down to what is reasonable. In my opinion the one person who profits from using the API doesn't pass my reasonableness test. Hence why I asked the question in the first place. Now as to a suggestion: 1. Is it possible to delay the sending results to bots via the API. eg: tell them about a new trade 10 minutes after it is listed. That way the majority of the user population has a chance to buy before the bot or; 2. Secure the API, such that those services which need it can use, but it can not be used to gain an unfair advantage over the rest of the users. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotWarlizard Posted October 25, 2015 Share Posted October 25, 2015 It's interesting to see you have such a low definition of innovation. Writing some code using an existing API to have an unfair advantage over the rest of the user population isn't innovation. Having the idea for the website, designing it, building it, and providing the API is innovation in my opinion. Oh, (and "NotWarLizard") using an ad hominen argument usually says something more about the writer than the person being written about. I know I've learnt something Just to summarise how I see it: 1. Most people are not key traders.They come to backpack to purchase keys when they need them. 2. As most people are not key traders it is not reasonable to expect that they should create (or purchase) a bot just for the purchase of 1 or 2 keys a day/week etc. 2. It's not unreasonable to expect to have an even chance at purchasing against everyone else using the website 3. There is 1 person who has used the backpack.tf API to have an advantage over every other user when buying keys. Arguments from above are that it is ok for one person to have an advantage over every other user because the person who owns the bot is "skilled" or "has innovated". Haven't seen any other arguments that supports this position. There are numerous skills that don't give someone a free pass to do whatever they want. eg: skilled hacker, skilled martial artist. It usually comes down to what is reasonable. In my opinion the one person who profits from using the API doesn't pass my reasonableness test. Hence why I asked the question in the first place. Now as to a suggestion: 1. Is it possible to delay the sending results to bots via the API. eg: tell them about a new trade 10 minutes after it is listed. That way the majority of the user population has a chance to buy before the bot or; 2. Secure the API, such that those services which need it can use, but it can not be used to gain an unfair advantage over the rest of the users. 1. Learn to quote on forums. 2. Clearly no one agrees with your communist ideas, look at the likes other people have gotten vs. yours (wait but isn't that unfair, maybe we should disable likes /s). 3. Take your commie ideals to another website, as clearly you feel very hurt that no one has the same possibilities, even those who don't do anything at all should receive the same benefits as those who do work. And to wrap this thread up, unfair would be if the creators of bp.tf gave the API exclusively to one person, but that's not the case, the API is public, therefore it's fair ground to everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I see dead digletts Posted October 25, 2015 Author Share Posted October 25, 2015 Lol...thanks Warlizard. I obviously hit a nerve by pointing out the lack of substance in your argument and the fact that you attack the person rather than the argument. I laughed out loud when I saw you have just gone and done it again. So to take the only thing out of your comments that apply. It seems you believe it would be "communist" to remove the unfair advantage one bot has over the rest of the user population. I assume that by your definition every trading exchange in the world with their trading rules to ensure fairness would be communist as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
t0night Posted October 25, 2015 Share Posted October 25, 2015 1. Learn to quote on forums. 2. Clearly no one agrees with your communist ideas, look at the likes other people have gotten vs. yours (wait but isn't that unfair, maybe we should disable likes /s). 3. Take your commie ideals to another website, as clearly you feel very hurt that no one has the same possibilities, even those who don't do anything at all should receive the same benefits as those who do work. And to wrap this thread up, unfair would be if the creators of bp.tf gave the API exclusively to one person, but that's not the case, the API is public, therefore it's fair ground to everyone. there's no need to be so aggressive. he clearly explained why he thought it was unfair and while i don't necessarily agree with him i can see where he's coming from. your post could be summed up as 'haha mad commie noob ur so mad get gud everyone agrees with me' and has added literally nothing to the conversation. @OP, i don't really see the issue. you pay an extra scrap per key, like literally something around a cent, because someone put in time and effort to make a bot. it's not reasonable to expect traders who just want a quick key to write a bot, it's also not reasonable to ask backpack to ruin the work of the people who wrote the bots so that you can save a few pennies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Дебра Posted October 25, 2015 Share Posted October 25, 2015 It's interesting to see you have such a low definition of innovation. Writing some code using an existing API to have an unfair advantage over the rest of the user population isn't innovation. Having the idea for the website, designing it, building it, and providing the API is innovation in my opinion. Better than make quicksell trade and wait for offers level of innovation. Also this is present in the real world too, people with skills excel at using said skills. Why should people be screamed at for having skills you don't? You should spend less time complaining about your lack of skills and work on expanding your skills. Believe it or not scrap.tf works on a open API, CSGOL works on a open API, TF2OP works on a open API. All of which a fairly innovative websites and are successful businesses. So is a private bot, if someone has a idea and it's profitable it is innovative, you don't need to make Microsoft to be innovative. Oh, (and "NotWarLizard") using an ad hominen argument usually says something more about the writer than the person being written about. I know I've learnt something But successful people don't complain, successful people work on useful skills and innovate using them. Should Microsoft be closed down because someone doesn't understand computer code and can't compete with it? Should farms be closed down because someone doesn't know how to run a farm and can't compete? No. If you want a farm you learn. Just to summarise how I see it: 1. Most people are not key traders.They come to backpack to purchase keys when they need them. People selling keys also come here to sell keys. They get their keys sold quick so they are happy. If you just come here to buy keys when you need them the extra few rec the bot pushes the price by won't matter to you. That is the equivalent of picking up pennies on the ground. It's a negligible amount of money. 2. As most people are not key traders it is not reasonable to expect that they should create (or purchase) a bot just for the purchase of 1 or 2 keys a day/week etc. See above. 2. It's not unreasonable to expect to have an even chance at purchasing against everyone else using the website Should everyone be banned off backpack.tf after 8pm because 12 year Jim has to do his homework at 8pm? If they are allowed online after the kid's bed time not everyone has a fair chance. Same with bots, should someone who knows how to code be banned form making a bot that has no harm to the website and the website even promotes with a API just because not everyone possess these skills? 3. There is 1 person who has used the backpack.tf API to have an advantage over every other user when buying keys. 1 person used their own initiative and made something original. Is that wrong? Is it a crime to do something different? Must everyone chose from the shitty quickbuy trade templates and do just that? Arguments from above are that it is ok for one person to have an advantage over every other user because the person who owns the bot is "skilled" or "has innovated". Haven't seen any other arguments that supports this position. There are numerous skills that don't give someone a free pass to do whatever they want. eg: skilled hacker, skilled martial artist. It usually comes down to what is reasonable. Skilled hackers get rewarded for being that too. They can be hired as white hats such as pen testers, sec engineers etc. Skilled martial artists can compete in martial arts competitions to earn money. So yes they do get rewards for having skills. In my opinion the one person who profits from using the API doesn't pass my reasonableness test. Hence why I asked the question in the first place. 1 person profiting from a method means it's a illegal method and should be shut down? What? Should everyone be subsistence farmers and all luxury be considered a crime? Believe it or not most businesses use private methods to profit. Is TF2 trading only allowed to be 'Buying quicksales with X keys don't add me'? Innovation isn't a crime. Now as to a suggestion: 1. Is it possible to delay the sending results to bots via the API. eg: tell them about a new trade 10 minutes after it is listed. That way the majority of the user population has a chance to buy before the bot or; The bots will still be able to gather information without an API. 2. Secure the API, such that those services which need it can use, but it can not be used to gain an unfair advantage over the rest of the users. Unfair? Any use of the API is unfair by your definition because not everyone understands it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I see dead digletts Posted October 26, 2015 Author Share Posted October 26, 2015 Hi Дебра. Thanks for your response. If I can summarise your post, you believe that because someone has the skills to gain an advantage over everyone else they should be able to do so and that if you come here to buy a few keys you shouldn't mind paying more than the bot. I think you also believe that there is no point in changing the use of the API because the bot owner would find some other way to gain an advantage. I hope I've got that correct?? That's really the crux of my argument: the current use of the API means that everyone except the bot owner is disadvantaged. I think you believe it is ok, because they have the skills to do so(?), whereas I'm posing the position that it disadvantages everyone else. I also think(?) you agree with this because " If you just come here to buy keys when you need them the extra few rec the bot pushes the price by won't matter to you". My skills (or supposed lack thereof) keeps being mentioned as a reason this situation is ok. Having worked in IT for a number of years the skills I possess might suprise, however, even if I was to write a bot, how does this not disadvantage the rest of the backpack.tf population. BTW not being a key flipper I have never had the intention of writing a bot and I don't see that changing. I would just like a level playing field when buying the keys I need to trade, hence my question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotWarlizard Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 Hi Дебра. Thanks for your response. If I can summarise your post, you believe that because someone has the skills to gain an advantage over everyone else they should be able to do so and that if you come here to buy a few keys you shouldn't mind paying more than the bot. I think you also believe that there is no point in changing the use of the API because the bot owner would find some other way to gain an advantage. I hope I've got that correct?? That's really the crux of my argument: the current use of the API means that everyone except the bot owner is disadvantaged. I think you believe it is ok, because they have the skills to do so(?), whereas I'm posing the position that it disadvantages everyone else. I also think(?) you agree with this because " If you just come here to buy keys when you need them the extra few rec the bot pushes the price by won't matter to you". My skills (or supposed lack thereof) keeps being mentioned as a reason this situation is ok. Having worked in IT for a number of years the skills I possess might suprise, however, even if I was to write a bot, how does this not disadvantage the rest of the backpack.tf population. BTW not being a key flipper I have never had the intention of writing a bot and I don't see that changing. I would just like a level playing field when buying the keys I need to trade, hence my question. I'll give to whoever tries to continue this debate with this guy some sort of reward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I see dead digletts Posted October 26, 2015 Author Share Posted October 26, 2015 I'll give to whoever tries to continue this debate with this guy some sort of reward. Here you go NotWarLizard......For Your Education hth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Дебра Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 That's really the crux of my argument: the current use of the API means that everyone except the bot owner is disadvantaged. http://backpack.tf/api/registereveryone is on a level playing field because you have the same available tools as he does. I think you believe it is ok, because they have the skills to do so(?), whereas I'm posing the position that it disadvantages everyone else. I also think(?) you agree with this because " If you just come here to buy keys when you need them the extra few rec the bot pushes the price by won't matter to you". My skills (or supposed lack thereof) keeps being mentioned as a reason this situation is ok. Having worked in IT for a number of years the skills I possess might suprise, however, even if I was to write a bot, how does this not disadvantage the rest of the backpack.tf population. It doesn't disadvantage the other users because they don't give a fuck about paying <$0,03 extra. Believe it or not nobody cares about $0,03. If you possess the skills required to make a bot and are pissed off that much by your inability to buy all the cheap keys you should use those skills rather than complain. BTW not being a key flipper I have never had the intention of writing a bot and I don't see that changing. I would just like a level playing field when buying the keys I need to trade, hence my question. If $0,03 extra for keys breaks the profit margins in your trades you might want to rethink your profit margins. The bot maker put more effort than you did into buying keys so shouldn't he be rewarded? It's like banning people from TF2 for being too good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I see dead digletts Posted October 26, 2015 Author Share Posted October 26, 2015 Thanks...at least we now agree that the bot causes people to pay more than they would have if it didn't exist. You seem to think that asking a question about whether this is reasonable and asking for thoughts on the matter is a complaint (weird). I wonder why you use such strong language and seem to be trying and shut down a discussion especially since your steamrep status prevents you from trading anyway. If you read my initial post you would see I said "...I know a lot of the rules are in place here to give everyone a fair chance and I'm wondering whether this is something that has been overlooked. Clearly this bot (owned by one person) has an unfair advantage over every other person using backpack.tf trying to buy keys on the classifieds. Thoughts?" Anyway, I feel that this discussion is going nowhere. The answer I've gotten is that because that person is a skilled programmer it's ok to have an advantage over everyone else. I was hoping for any other opinions, but there don't seem to be any. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotWarlizard Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 I wonder why you use such strong language and seem to be trying and shut down a discussion especially since your steamrep status prevents you from trading anyway. True hypocrisy right here. Calls me out for using an ad hominen argument but he himself uses one. (Side note: it's funny to see he takes the time to look at people's profiles to find a flaw). Then proceeds to put an end to the discussion because no one agreed with him. People nowadays... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fmca Posted October 26, 2015 Share Posted October 26, 2015 The majority of opinions here would probably disagree with you OP. A lot of capitalist endeavour is based on the idea that everyone has equality of opportunity, at least at face value. In this precise case, I'd argue there is actually equality of opportunity for anyone to code their own bot. If you don't want to do it, its your right to choose that. But you can't expect to be able to shut down the bots of other people who have taken the time to code them. That seems pretty unreasonable to me. Maybe accept you're in the minority view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I see dead digletts Posted October 26, 2015 Author Share Posted October 26, 2015 Thanks for your response FMCA. My opening post was asking whether the advantage the bot has is intentional (or maybe something that was overlooked). It quickly morphed into some people stating that I was trying to close it down. By my count there were 9 people that have responded. Of those, 4 agree that the bot has an unfair advantage, 4 believe it has an advantage but that it's not unfair and 1 was ambivalent. My personal opinion is that the API provides an unfair advantage to a select person or group of people, and if this was unintentional I'd like to see it closed out. I'd love to know what the creators of bp.tf think, but if there was going to be a response I guess it would have been here already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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