Jump to content

Ask a SteamRep admin


Lava

Recommended Posts

You can tell the difference maybe.. but the mass majority of new players/traders have no idea. Any tool to get the job done better, faster and less painful is a tool I'll use even if I use multiple tools to get the job done whatever works.

if they legitimately have no idea about trading or scamming what makes you think your site will be helping? sure, you don't start trading with experience and knowledge of what scamming looks like but this kind of knowledge can be found in any basic guide, which in my view all major trading sites should be providing at some point. certainly it makes more sense to have a guide coming from them than a glacial pace of reports and bans happening on a site that no new trader will be visiting habitually anyway.i would infinitely rather see traders have common sense information about scammer accounts and what they look like in general than see steamrep grow huge in cs.

 

what do you say to the point about the general indifference to sr marks within cs trading?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 156
  • Created
  • Last Reply

if they legitimately have no idea about trading or scamming what makes you think your site will be helping? sure, you don't start trading with experience and knowledge of what scamming looks like but this kind of knowledge can be found in any basic guide, which in my view all major trading sites should be providing at some point. certainly it makes more sense to have a guide coming from them than a glacial pace of reports and bans happening on a site that no new trader will be visiting habitually anyway.i would infinitely rather see traders have common sense information about scammer accounts and what they look like in general than see steamrep grow huge in cs.

 

what do you say to the point about the general indifference to sr marks within cs trading?

 

It certainly isn't hurting that is for sure. As for all major trading sites should be providing guides at some point...yes YES! We hope they do and that is the main point here is to educate everyone not throw banned by tags around. The location for SR to provide a way for someone to report what has happened to them to educate others for this not to happen to them too is a great tool. The tags are really provided for community sites/servers like my own to use to take the edge off or the extra work away - IE: My servers auto ban for 1 week if you are a tagged user in the SR database.  So 1 week only in case they appeal and get it lifted thus I don't have to do any work but let the ban expire on its own. My traders and players on my servers don't have to worry as much about someone that is scamming others left and right while they trade in the game. Now would a scam still happen...yeah they do I'm sure but then it falls back on ME to educate my players/members of the tools to help them out when doing trades in any game really and that is what I and my staff do for my community and I'm sure others do as well.

 

Seems to be a lot of flack coming against SR being involved in CSGO, no idea why when there are a shit ton of reports coming in for CSGO players and a lot of people getting ripped off as is I can only imagin how bad it would be without SR's influence.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Seems to be a lot of flack coming against SR being involved in CSGO, no idea why when there are a shit ton of reports coming in for CSGO players and a lot of people getting ripped off as is I can only imagin how bad it would be without SR's influence.

 

The mentality in CS:GO is very different from tf2 generally in csgo where most players accept responsibility for their items, if you get scammed most players laugh at you for being an "idiot" which also inadvertently also educates the general cs:go community. Tbh most people in cs:go dont know nor care about SR it's only those who began trading in tf2 and made the switch who do.

 

I believe the main annoyance with SR in regards to cs:go is that they dont see the need for it and SR is trying to forcibly enter unwelcome territory, trying to force an ultimatum onto the player base. Which is make sure you spend a good 5 mins for every trade you make or else we will mark you and you will be shunned from all communities even though it's a straight up trade. The main "rule" people now have issues with is you will get marked if you trade with a marked scammer, I am aware that the rule was put in place to differ scammers to continue scamming and to prevent the profit of stolen goods but when you get very notable members of the community who have given alot, helped alot of people slip up once or twice and are deemed the same level as those who active scam users we have problems.

 

The thing is when SR comes into play it's not longer becomes "protection" no one in the community really feels protected, if anything everyone is worried about slipping up once (warning/caution) and the next slip up can get you a mark which is practically unavoidable given that users go through thousands of trades every year they are bound to slip up that 1%. Which also brings up questionable reports, where admins who have slipped up are quickly dismissed whilst others are not.

 

EDIT: I would also like to know as SR can barely handle reports from tf2 alone how do you expect to accommodate the much larger cs:go community and expect to actually have an impact? (note the year+ back log of SR)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The mentality in CS:GO is very different from tf2 generally in csgo where most players accept responsibility for their items, if you get scammed most players laugh at you for being an "idiot" which also inadvertently also educates the general cs:go community. Tbh most people in cs:go dont know nor care about SR it's only those who began trading in tf2 and made the switch who do.

 

I believe the main annoyance with SR in regards to cs:go is that they dont see the need for it and SR is trying to forcibly enter unwelcome territory, trying to force an ultimatum onto the player base. Which is make sure you spend a good 5 mins for every trade you make or else we will mark you and you will be shunned from all communities even though it's a straight up trade. The main "rule" people now have issues with is you will get marked if you trade with a marked scammer, I am aware that the rule was put in place to differ scammers to continue scamming and to prevent the profit of stolen goods but when you get very notable members of the community who have given alot, helped alot of people slip up once or twice and are deemed the same level as those who active scam users we have problems.

 

The thing is when SR comes into play it's not longer becomes "protection" no one in the community really feels protected, if anything everyone is worried about slipping up once (warning/caution) and the next slip up can get you a mark which is practically unavoidable given that users go through thousands of trades every year they are bound to slip up that 1%. Which also brings up questionable reports, where admins who have slipped up are quickly dismissed whilst others are not.

 

EDIT: I would also like to know as SR can barely handle reports from tf2 alone how do you expect to accommodate the much larger cs:go community and expect to actually have an impact? (note the year+ back log of SR)

 

I feel there is a very small amount by percentage of CSGO players that dislike what SR is trying to do. Another large percentage that don't know about SR. 

 

Nobody is perfect when it comes to the reports.. I screwed up one a few days ago and had to go back and look at it again after I slept on it. We can only hope we do the best we can and ensure that everything is done fairly.

 

As for the barely handle reports from TF2 well lets note that Backlog... if you really go back most of those reported years ago and the reports still in idle aren't even trading anymore. There are 100+ reports coming in A DAY... A DAY now, thats just nuts!! For me alone I've been able to go thru about 7-10 reports at a time that need extra attention (I'm currently waiting on a reply for more info or I've asked a question). There are several others I've knocked up as everything was in place at which knocking up a level just makes it easier on one of the Admins to review as another set of eyes and apply or not apply tags. There are prob 20+ in the last few days alone that I just archived as they were arguments about prices/values of an item or someone just making a report with no evidence..just to make one. A few of those I archived just didn't have enough evidence and made it clear they didn't IE: no chat logs or discussion/agreement that says what is going on and why which is vital to move them along.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Administrators

EDIT: I would also like to know as SR can barely handle reports from tf2 alone how do you expect to accommodate the much larger cs:go community and expect to actually have an impact? (note the year+ back log of SR)

 

I would have to highly agree with this. I don't see the site getting into the csgo community anytime soon at all. They are extremely backloged with current reports and most of their admins are active less than half the time due to their in real life work and studies.

 

Unless there is a massive change on SR's part (hiring bunch of active people) I don't see anyone accepting them or they getting in the community at all.

 

If it were me, I would try to fix the current major problem instead of trying to forcibly push into something else. They can hardly handle current amount of reports, how can they expect to handle communities like CSGO, Dota2 and Payday2? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Unless there is a massive change on SR's part (hiring bunch of active people) I don't see anyone accepting them or they getting in the community at all.

 

Myself and 2 others were just brought on..... we bring a lot of experience to the table..things are looking up :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

what is the actual purpose of a steamrep mark?

 

i ask because there are much quicker ways to realise that someone isn't trustworthy that would activate at a lower level than a mark (-trust ratings being a great example; not requiring the same level of offense, but indicative in their own right; same goes for website bans and prominent profile features such as having low hours etc). to me, a steamrep mark is not useful as a warning not to trust someone because of how slow it is to apply. I can figure out who i can trust to trade without SR, at this point.

 

it seems to be entirely about preventing someone who has scammed from being able to trade effectively. it frequently absolutely fails in this regard as angel has shown with regard to penek, it fails utterly in csgo. if you solely trade in cs:go, and you know that most traders don't give a shit about sr marks; and more significantly you know that others have the same attitude, SR is powerless. what are you gonna do? mark someone, everyone goes, oh it's fine i'll still trade with you. you gonna mark all of them? go for it. where does it get you if they're still all trading freely and haven't actually scammed anyone?

 

in my view, to succeed in cs where valid item histories are harder to come by and general community knowledge and regard for your organisation is a tiny fraction of what you had in tf2, you're going to need to adapt hard. i think cs is too big for a collection of 20 people (or whatever the actual number of admins is) to have a significant difference; especially a positive one.

A steamrep mark is essentially a warning label. To address your 2nd paragraph, you're pointing out signs of an obvious alt, and possible but inconclusive signs that someone is being reported for fraud, similar to having pending reports. All of these things you described are useful, and something we'd encourage people to look at. For those who aren't familiar with them, we hope to raise general awareness throughout the Steam community about them and encourage people to do their own research.

 

If you'll notice, below anyone's SteamRep profile is an expandable "research tools" tab. Click on that and you'll find an array of useful links for looking at various details on an account. Do you see a bunch of middlemen in the name history? Do they show up in sourcebans for X community? Another thing SR does is research alternate accounts, so when someone is marked, we do a search using undisclosed methods to find most other accounts belonging to that same person, then update all respective accounts with an identical tag and a link to the account where the offense took place. Sometimes, especially in CSGO, someone will use one or several alts to scam, and then trade like normal from the main account, counting on nobody knowing where they got all their wealth. cAre was actually doing just that.

 

I think we have a long way to go, but we're slowly starting to have an impact in CSGO. From what I understand it was kind of similar way back with TF2 when Outpost was starting up, and they didn't ban scammers. A couple of websites have started banning scammers for one reason or another, and I think even a few CSGO trade servers have started running our plugin. General attitude will probably take longer to shape, but it may come in time when enough people are fed up with scammers. Or it may not, since the CSGO crowd from its very inception always had a different mentality from TF2 in general, but time alone will tell.

 

SR Staff, 

 

Of the people who have complained about the lack of staff, how many have applied to join the staff?

Staff applications are visible to the public, and as far as I know, none of them have been removed from public view. You can see for yourself everyone who has applied.

Pending applications: http://forums.steamrep.com/forums/staffapps/

Archived applications: http://forums.steamrep.com/forums/archived-applications.33/

 

if they legitimately have no idea about trading or scamming what makes you think your site will be helping? sure, you don't start trading with experience and knowledge of what scamming looks like but this kind of knowledge can be found in any basic guide, which in my view all major trading sites should be providing at some point. certainly it makes more sense to have a guide coming from them than a glacial pace of reports and bans happening on a site that no new trader will be visiting habitually anyway.i would infinitely rather see traders have common sense information about scammer accounts and what they look like in general than see steamrep grow huge in cs.

 

what do you say to the point about the general indifference to sr marks within cs trading?

 

I think they usually start to care after they get scammed once or twice. That, or they rage that the "cyber cops" can't get their items back like the scammer promised and start scamming themselves. Unfortunately we're rather limited in what we can do for the people who ignore all warnings we hand out before ultimately getting scammed, but I feel like after enough of it takes place people will get fed up and culture will eventually shift in favor of things that curb fraud.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted · Hidden by polar, October 22, 2015 - No reason given
Hidden by polar, October 22, 2015 - No reason given

User was a banned alt of someone who spammed the forums before. His post was hidden. Looking at his post, I think it was fine to hide, but if you'd really like to address it I can unhide it for you. Otherwise, I'll hide your post and this one a bit later.

Thats fine, I just wanted to point out 1. I was just reinstated to SR and been putting in 4-6horus a day for about 3 weeks now (yes, I have processed more appeals in 3 weeks then the rest of SR in 1/2 a year while I was gone) and 2. the screenshot is/was a tad misleading, I went threw and cherry picked old cases that were easy to process to help catch up and replied to the others for followup (sad but that usually means easy to deny cases) I wanted to note also, granted many appeals in that same timeframe.

Link to comment
Posted · Hidden by polar, October 22, 2015 - No reason given
Hidden by polar, October 22, 2015 - No reason given

Why are you wasting your time on an AMA when there's still tons of reports that need to get looked at? :^)

Well I dont do reports, but I can only guess to counter bad PR from users who post loaded questions. :^)

Link to comment
Posted · Hidden by polar, October 22, 2015 - No reason given
Hidden by polar, October 22, 2015 - No reason given

Why are you wasting your time on an AMA when there's still tons of reports that need to get looked at? :^)

 

Well at the time I was waiting on reports to be replied to - We have a way to "assign" threads to ourselves and others so we can keep up with them. I have several that I need questions answered before I move on to others unless they are complete or clearly invalid. So while I'm replying to the AMA as of yesterday I was at my real job when I didn't have much else to do. Right now I'm replying while watching College Gameday on ESPN waiting on football games to come on as that is one of many hobbies which I'm sure you yourself have.

 

By the way which team are you pulling for today the most? :^)

Link to comment

What was the toughest report you had to decide on?

 

I did a report a few months ago that took a while to research that dealt with a steam market place scam. Two guys were putting items on there for very high amounts vs the others and telling users to purchase them to finish a trade of items.

I'm sure there are others that could post even harder reports and worse reports - its really bad the level of creativity users are coming up with to rip someone off.

 

I'm against how things are being valued and priced by the community... well this site for example is just one much like the old Spreadsheet that was going around for TF2 items....(This is just ME talking not SR here)  I don't care for how items are "priced" or "valued"... trading is a haggle system. You and the other person should barter what you want for each others items not run to a site that isn't official in nature to say this is worth this or that and so on. If I wanted to trade someone a burning hat for a hat that was just throwing nuts and bolts out then so be it that is what I wanted ..if the other person felt they got a great deal then awesome...everyone is happy.

 

Until Valve makes some sorta official value/price guide for its games and items that is just how I feel about it. (Remember that was all from ME not SR).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Administrators

 

Until Valve makes some sorta official value/price guide for its games and items that is just how I feel about it. (Remember that was all from ME not SR).

 

Valve will never ever make a price guide. If they had any plans like this, they would have done this for Tf2 already which is already almost a 10 year old game.  :P

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Valve will never ever make a price guide. If they had any plans like this, they would have done this for Tf2 already which is already almost a 10 year old game.  :P

 

Well I said for any game or items.... but that is just my own opinion and nothing to do with SR.  I kinda get tired personally when I hear about people bitching about this person or that person wanting 2 Refined for an item when Backpack.tf says its "WORTH" 2.3 Refined.... really? Backpack.tf isn't the bible for item values in these games neither is any other site.

 

Again - all that is my personal ranting position nothing to do with SR :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But a SteamRep mark isn't just a "warning label", it is like a disease. One person has it, and if you touch that person, you get it too, and everyone else that you touch gets it. It isn't a particularly fair or accurate system for labeling scammers. The only way you should earn a tag is if you are actively scamming.

 

 

Also about the CS:GO thing. The whole reason that SR is effective *AT ALL* is because sites like OP/BP/BAZ will ban you if you are marked. You can mark all of the CS:GO traders all you want, but all you will be doing is wasting your time if none of the websites will enforce your tags. I think that you'd be doing a great disservice to CS:GO traders as well as TF2 traders if you try to pick up more of a workload that is unnecessary and unwanted. You'd be wasting your time marking CS:GO traders that get *NO CONSEQUENCE* for being marked, and at the same time pushing even more TF2 reports into the backlog where the mark actually matters when trading.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

steamrep is run by a bunch of teenagers who think they are the law

 

No more to discuss really

 

Kinda a very uneducated or thought thru post - I don't know about the rest of them but I'm damn near 40, kinda wish I was a teenager again.

 

 

But a SteamRep mark isn't just a "warning label", it is like a disease. One person has it, and if you touch that person, you get it too, and everyone else that you touch gets it. It isn't a particularly fair or accurate system for labeling scammers. The only way you should earn a tag is if you are actively scamming.

 


Also about the CS:GO thing. The whole reason that SR is effective *AT ALL* is because sites like OP/BP/BAZ will ban you if you are marked. You can mark all of the CS:GO traders all you want, but all you will be doing is wasting your time if none of the websites will enforce your tags. I think that you'd be doing a great disservice to CS:GO traders as well as TF2 traders if you try to pick up more of a workload that is unnecessary and unwanted. You'd be wasting your time marking CS:GO traders that get *NO CONSEQUENCE* for being marked, and at the same time pushing even more TF2 reports into the backlog where the mark actually matters when trading.

 


People use the "I didn't know" as an excuse, an excuse to get away with a scam as they didn't know about SR, they didn't know doing that or this or whatever was bad.

 

CS:GO traders are really pouring in the reports so we do what we can and with that we are actively talking to these new sites that pop up to join in and most are as they don't want the bad rep of being the site that caters to scammers/thieves. I've already discussed the backlog - read up a few posts you will understand more.

 

 

Whats your favorite pony ?

 

I don't have a fav I don't watch that stuff...

 

Which furry thing you fap the most?

 

I'm going to refer this question to YATO

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Random question, and I don't know if you had answered this before if someone else asked it, but has Steamrep ever considered a trading with scammers label? Still having the same heat as a mark but just clarifying that the person didn't actaully scam anyone.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm sorry I'm a bit late to the party. Have you ever handed an incorrect ban? I'm not talking about a ban that got appealed because of good behaviour or anything but one where you were plain out wrong because you misinterpreted the facts presented to you. Or where the reported 'evidence' was skewed with i.e. photoshopped or something like that?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Why are you wasting your time on an AMA when there's still tons of reports that need to get looked at? :^)

 

Because it's needed. Accepting reports and dishing out scammer tags isn't the only thing we do, although it does seem that way sometimes. If nobody takes SteamRep seriously, then my work is for nothing. If people have an opportunity to learn something, then maybe it will prevent them from being scammed in the future.

 

What was the toughest report you had to decide on?

 

I don't really get too personal in reports, so I don't remember all of them, but I had a couple where the victim was repaid in between the time I submitted the report and the time I got to it. The victim just kept posting the issue was resolved, hesitating to go any further, and reporting their own post asking to have it taken down. Usually they'll offer to repay on condition of retracting their report (which victims can't do, for that very reason), and that's pretty straightforward, but sometimes if they're repaid you have to make a judgement call based on a number of factors. In one particular case, I was newer as an admin, the victim was already repaid with interest, and they pleaded to forgive the scammer (Steam wallet fraud). I archived the report, but a week later I reconsidered the situation based on how I saw other admins working cases, and asked Mattie. I went back, and right as I slapped the caution on him I found a report from right after the victim was repaid for the exact same thing on someone else. Although not an appeal per se, that case served as an example on why we generally don't grant "change of heart" appeals, as the second victim could have seen this prior scam and not archived the report. Needless to say, it's not a caution anymore.

 

But a SteamRep mark isn't just a "warning label", it is like a disease. One person has it, and if you touch that person, you get it too, and everyone else that you touch gets it. It isn't a particularly fair or accurate system for labeling scammers. The only way you should earn a tag is if you are actively scamming.

 

 

Also about the CS:GO thing. The whole reason that SR is effective *AT ALL* is because sites like OP/BP/BAZ will ban you if you are marked. You can mark all of the CS:GO traders all you want, but all you will be doing is wasting your time if none of the websites will enforce your tags. I think that you'd be doing a great disservice to CS:GO traders as well as TF2 traders if you try to pick up more of a workload that is unnecessary and unwanted. You'd be wasting your time marking CS:GO traders that get *NO CONSEQUENCE* for being marked, and at the same time pushing even more TF2 reports into the backlog where the mark actually matters when trading.

 

A SteamRep tag is meant as a warning label, with the trade-with-scammers rule meant to disincentivize stealing by making it harder to move stolen goods. It's not really contagious, unless you share a household/computer with the person who got marked. In the later case, it becomes rather difficult to differentiate accounts; I have seen "siblings" have successful appeals, but as you can imagine 2 people speaking from the same computer that both regularly access is pretty difficult to differentiate from 1 person claiming to have a "brother" that doesn't exist. The trade-with-scammers thing isn't really meant to be contagious either, but more on that below.

 

Whats your favorite pony ?

 

Twilight, but I also like Fluttershy. Outside the pony world, I also like Sonata Dusk.

 

Which furry thing you fap the most?

 

You're confusing "yiff" with "clop", and I don't do either, though I still respect the people who do for their differences. I'm not a furry, and even after looking at some parts of the furry fandom I honestly couldn't find any interest in the stuff, but I haven't met a furry I couldn't get along with.

 

steamrep is run by a bunch of teenagers who think they are the law

 

No more to discuss really

 

You must be 18 or older to apply as a SteamRep moderator. Our actual age demographic averages fairly well above that figure. While I do not mean to speak for everyone, children generally make poor admins; this is not to say that no kid/teen could ever make a good admin, but impulsive want-it-now tendancies, general lack of maturity, having never taken on a role of major responsibility, and the state of flux their life circumstances as well as attitude, all make for an admin prone to conflicted or misguided decisions.

 

Random question, and I don't know if you had answered this before if someone else asked it, but has Steamrep ever considered a trading with scammers label? Still having the same heat as a mark but just clarifying that the person didn't actaully scam anyone.

 

Usually when someone is tagged, the thing they got marked for is listed publicly on their profile. If it's for trades with scammers, that will be shown. Nothing to change there.

 

Enforcement of the trade-with-scammers is being looked at though. Things like the "cursed" high value items are situations that were never intended to happen, and the practice of tagging for trading with someone marked for trading with a scammer is being scrutinized a bit internally. The thing is, nobody should be marked for a first-time trade with scammers; the rule is not intended to punish people for honest mistakes, and if I ran into something like that I myself wouldn't apply a tag if they hadn't done it before. SteamRep itself rarely tags for such trades, and tags for trading with scammers are usually issued by partner communities. Sometimes tags have been issued incorrectly, and I've seen appeals for it granted pretty regularly. Haven't looked at the details, but because people almost universally blame SteamRep for partner tags I've gotten some of the fallout for them (without even having access to the evidence). Often it's some kind of misunderstanding; either we and the partner weren't perfectly clear on how to enforce, or the partner misunderstood the evidence presented to them.

 

We, and partners, get a lot of reports lacking solid evidence, for trades with scammers from people who are on vendettas and simply spending hours looking for a way to ruin someone's trading career, but in the interest of fairness we still have to consider their report on level ground with everyone else, even if it's from a marked scammer.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just wondering but whats steamrep opinion on how cursed team captain was handled with that muselk lended for one video ?

Cursed team captain everyone is marked except one guy that traded clean burning team captain for cursed one without any knowledge of it.

 

Is't it about time policy gets updated regarding trading with scammers ? at least punishment, of course you should avoid it at all cost but do you believe everyone that trades with a scammer once or maybe even 2 times is a scammer ?

 

Loosening up rules may just give you less work load to deal with either way.

 

Also define a real scammer ?

Like when some one a real scammer, or when some one just being a douche for like paying less then discussed for example key worth less.

 

Is it worth marking some one over 1 key when there reports of scammers being ignored that scammed for way more ?.

 

My idea of real scammer is some one that does switch tactics, chargebacks, or sociopath tactics like trade item to me and i get room mate out of bed, those are real scammers, probably missed a few but you get the idea.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm sorry I'm a bit late to the party. Have you ever handed an incorrect ban? I'm not talking about a ban that got appealed because of good behaviour or anything but one where you were plain out wrong because you misinterpreted the facts presented to you. Or where the reported 'evidence' was skewed with i.e. photoshopped or something like that?

 

Personally, no, but to be fair I haven't been around for an especially long time. There could be something I don't know about, or I could make a mistake sometime later. One of the reasons I joined staff here is because seeing innocent people marked really makes me sad, so I spend a lot of time researching and fact checking before issuing a tag (which means I end up doing fewer reports as a whole), and if something doesn't look right I'll ask for more evidence. A lot of the times moderators send reports to me when they suspect fake evidence is involved. As far as I know, none of my tags have been successfully appealed yet. I've actually seen fake reports on the rise over the past few months, and have been specifically seeking them out to nip them in the flank before the reporter does too much damage. A single fake screenshot as evidence, either in defense or to get someone else banned, will earn you a scammer tag.

 

In one case, a particularly nasty person was demanding really unreasonable trades, kind of like your stereotype Outpost autobump abuser, but when people didn't give him what he wanted he doctored evidence and filed bogus steamrep reports. There was one case from him where the admin spent a few hours, but ultimately made the wrong call. It was uncovered during an appeal, and the reporter was found to have systematically faked evidence for a handful of people. It was an unusual case; fake evidence is usually posted by an accused trying to get out of trouble, and most people don't put that kind of effort into framing someone else. Usually if they do though, it becomes obvious because the accused will quickly pop into the report and post screenshots that conflict with the reporters, which is the red flag for an admin to handle with extra care. Hence we say if you're reported, you should reply in the report against you with evidence of your own; PMing it to an admin or reporting the post may not be visible to the admin who takes the report.

 

Wrongful tags, with rare exceptions, are connected to admins handling lots of reports in a short timeframe. Sometimes that happens when they're frustrated with the report backlog; they rush and overlook little details that would otherwise change the outcome of a case. The faster you work, the less attention you pay to details, and the more likely you are to make a mistake. In a lot of my posts, it looks like I am some kind of copy-pasting bot, and not paying attention to details. Behind the scenes, I actually write up an essay of private notes either detailing my research (if accepting a report/appeal) or what's going on if I see some funny business (if asking for more info), with a possible learning exercise or briefing for a mod if they were involved, then I slap a generic or scripted reply so it doesn't stand out too much. Here's a screenshot of what one my recent reports looks like to other staff:

 

thread-113367%20taken%202015-10-17%2015:

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A steamrep mark is essentially a warning label.

I think they usually start to care after they get scammed once or twice. That, or they rage that the "cyber cops" can't get their items back like the scammer promised and start scamming themselves. Unfortunately we're rather limited in what we can do for the people who ignore all warnings we hand out before ultimately getting scammed, but I feel like after enough of it takes place people will get fed up and culture will eventually shift in favor of things that curb fraud.

but a mark doesn't function as a warning if the people who need warning don't know or use steamrep, and if the mark itself is so slow to be applied as they are in 99% of cases right now. you yourself admit: they start to care after they get scammed, not before... that puts steamrep permanently behind the curve, reactive instead of preventative. you would 'encourage people to look at' the actual warning signs which appear BEFORE a scam, but how and where does this actually happen in official steamrep implementation?

 

what would be genuinely useful and preventative in my view is the large trading sites (lounge, outpost, backpack) having official updated guides and information on how to avoid being scammed. it needs to be there, because that's where people are BEFORE they get scammed; having it on a dedicated but relatively completely unknown site with as little official affiliation as anywhere else doesn't make much sense, and it's not even the primary purpose of steamrep, which is to target individual accounts months after the event.

 

also, it's obviously not just a warning. if it was, there would be no rules in place about trading marked scammers. it's designed to be punitive as much as it is to warn, and at this point frankly only serves one of those purposes at all well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ugh ok fine steamrep admins are all 20 sometimes who can't be arsed to answer legitimate reports

 

I know right? It's almost like they have a life with a family, job, and their own needs. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just wondering but whats steamrep opinion on how cursed team captain was handled with that muselk lended for one video ?

Cursed team captain everyone is marked except one guy that traded clean burning team captain for cursed one without any knowledge of it.

 

Is't it about time policy gets updated regarding trading with scammers ? at least punishment, of course you should avoid it at all cost but do you believe everyone that trades with a scammer once or maybe even 2 times is a scammer ?

 

Loosening up rules may just give you less work load to deal with either way.

 

Also define a real scammer ?

Like when some one a real scammer, or when some one just being a douche for like paying less then discussed for example key worth less.

 

Is it worth marking some one over 1 key when there reports of scammers being ignored that scammed for way more ?.

 

My idea of real scammer is some one that does switch tactics, chargebacks, or sociopath tactics like trade item to me and i get room mate out of bed, those are real scammers, probably missed a few but you get the idea.

 

I don't have a link to his profile handy, so I don't know if he's marked yet, but I believe Fortress of Gamers was/is working that case. Since it's a FoG report/tag, I don't have access to all of the details, but one of their admins had asked me and some other staff for advice on how to move forward. I don't keep up with (or frankly even give a flying feather about) celebrities, but from what I heard I don't think Muselk's representation of the case was fair. Because I was asked for advice, along with other staff, and these ongoing investigations are confidential, I'm limited in what I can disclose, but I'll give you an overview of what happened to try and put a little bit of perspective on the case.

 

Muselk allegedly "borrowed" the team captain from a scammer, who he knew was marked. Like a lot of other high profile people, a certain vulture reported him for trading with scammers to try and get him "punished" (actually Debras from this thread, IIRC). Problem is, Muselk has a private profile. FoG asked Muselk for some evidence of where he got the Team Captain, including trade history and paypal history, which is kind of required in these types of reports (I think I mentioned in an earlier these kinds of reports are rather difficult to work with), but Muselk refused to provide it or cooperate in any manner with FoG, then literally dared the FoG admin to mark him and see what happens. The last thing any of us, FoG included, wants to do is mark a non-trader for something that ultimately does nothing to help scammers profit. The problem is, while we know for sure he received the item, we can't tell whether he paid for it or actually borrowed it as he claims; in the former case he's knowingly working with scammers and blatantly disregarding the policy, but in the later it would be extremely easy to clear his name, and evidence like that (trade/paypal history) is kept from the public. Supposedly he no longer has the unusual, but it was traded to "another private profile" so we can't tell that either.

 

Moving forward in that kind of case is a difficult call to make, because if we give him the benefit of doubt without any evidence, the next mule with a private backpack is going to make the exact same arguments as Muselk, and this kind of job requires you to remain impartial and not play favorites just because someone is a celebrity. Contrary to the story he provided, there was no "add me or else" kind of threat. Muselk was free to communicate with FoG admins in any way possible, including PMing via their forums, if he didn't want to add them on Steam, but his issue really seems to be something against FoG/SR or general unwillingness to cooperate (possibly because he paid for the item), not an issue with delivery. It's kind of damned if you do, damned if you don't situation; letting him off the hook sets a precedent for scammer-mules to give the same kind of "I borrowed it or received it as a gift but I'm not showing you anything" every time they get accused, but tagging him will give him fuel to damage our own reputation (SteamRep's, anytime FoG issues a tag someone disagrees with they blame SR but turn around and praise FoG for quickly handling reports) to a possibly unrepairable degree, amidst us trying to come to terms with the CSGO community. I was only called upon for consultation though, so I may be missing something.

 

The topic of this particular rule has come internally up a number of times recently, and will probably continue to be brought up. Unfortunately SteamRep is slow to change, so if this rule is adjusted it may not be right away. There are a few problems with it right now, in particular a huge demographic of CSGO traders many of whom either care little for SteamRep or don't know what SteamRep is, and moving forward we need to look at how that rule is implemented. The rule is intended to prevent people from scamming on one account, then having their buddy broker or fence the stolen items; working with scammers to help them profit is hence a bannable offense. If not working with a regular fence, the scammer will usually search Outpost or similar for quickbuyers, then dump it on them for a sweet deal but ultimately any keys/cash he gets is a net profit because the item was stolen in the first place. That kind of practice among "quickbuyers" where if the price is right they will trade with a private profile or marked scammer, needs to be discouraged. Not only does it affect reputation at SteamRep, but it can also lead to trade bans, and rather relentless victims harassing you and shaming you anyplace they can. I've seen people get shamed on Reddit and have SR reports spammed against them as "alts" by the victim and their friends because they bought a stolen quicksell, and even if not marked for it that's really not a position you want to be in. If you pay in cash, you also look like an alt of the scammer to Valve, so you may wind up trade banned for it if the victim goes to Steam Support.

 

As to your question about what constitutes a scammer, you actually have several very good questions there, which a lot of people don't understand how to differentiate. Those kinds of misunderstandings are exactly the sort of thing I hoped to clear up in this AMA, so I'll try to take each part separately.

  • SteamRep is not concerned with prices. Any kind of "uneven" trade, no matter how unfair, is not a scam. The easiest and most concise way to define a scam is a "breach of trade agreement", where you agreed to X items/price, and the other party agreed to Y items/price. If one side doesn't follow through, such as not delivering PayPal, it's a scam. If both sides agree to a really uneven trade, even if it's like 90% off, it's not a scam. Price policing reports are a plague in our report backlog; and the people pushing them tend to be really hard-headed and pitch a fit when their report is not accepted.
  • If someone scammed for 1 key, or even less, they are not really any less of a threat. If they scammed for a key, how can you trust them with something worth several hundred dollars? The point is not the severity of impact, but whether a person shows they are capable of committing fraud, on whatever level. We're not here to punish them, get even, or force repayment, we're here to warn the community.
  • Chargebacks are a scam, as is running from PayPal trades, spycrabs, or gift wrap arrangements. Quick-switch is a scam, because you did not end up with the item you agreed upon. Item misrepresentation often falls into the same boat as quick switch, but may be classified as sharking. Fake Steam Wallet transfers are a definitive attempted scam, because the accused "promised" a certain amount of Steam Wallet they have no intention of delivering.

It's unfortunate, but we cannot get to every case. Cases are picked based on a number of criteria, including number of reports, apparent threat (high profile, community admin/middleman, etc), and time submitted. We're not committed to handling every report, so we often work on newer reports where the accused is still active; tagging the account that hasn't been accessed in 6 months does little for the community. So you very well may see a bunch of reports newer than your own processed while yours is neglected. There's no easy answer to that, and as I iterated in an earlier report if we simply "hurried up" we'd be more prone to marking someone innocent. Ultimately we do what we can, and if we stop maybe a few hundred people from getting scammed who checked a SteamRep profile before hitting "Trade" we've accomplished something, but at this point we can't do everything. We're doing all we can to bring on new staff, but few qualified people are willing to take this kind of volunteer position. A number of people also apply who are actually scammer alts.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

FoG asked Muselk for some evidence of where he got the Team Captain, including trade history and paypal history, which is kind of required in these types of reports (I think I mentioned in an earlier these kinds of reports are rather difficult to work with), but Muselk refused to provide it or cooperate in any manner with FoG, then literally dared the FoG admin to mark him and see what happens.

Shouldn't you respect his privacy? It's not exactly unreasonable for someone to refuse to disclose financial information to randoms on the internet. Why is his financial information even required when it can easily be faked and he could have easily sent the payment through other means, especially as most scammers would rather use BTC than for Paypal?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...