Abortion

[Python.]

Abortion is hard for me to think about. Its horrible. Not only are you taking the childs life but you are taking from the lives of who that child could have been a part of.  

 

Abortion can be compared to murder. Is that not what you are doing? Taking the life from a living human being is wrong, no matter how or when its done.

 

btw: ive already read what you have to say, so dont comment back to me trying to prove me wrong or change my beliefs, i am and will always be against abortion.

 

 

That's fine if you dont wanna let people do what they wanna do with their lives. I can't make you change that

But PRS is for discussing, so why comment here if you didn't want people to do exactly that?

 

That being said, let me discuss your point

 

Abortions are completely safe and the "baby" can't feel a thing. Plus they can get them when it's a fetus, which is not a living thing

 

The fact is there are too many people in this world, and not enough money. An unpredicted child can ruin a woman's, man's, or even family's life, bonds, etc.

 

Where in the Bible does it say exactly when a thing receives a soul? I'd like to know

[Black Dynamite]

I support abortion mistakes happen and babies are one mistake that can easily ruin your life especially if you're a man. 

[Hyperqube]

Abortion is hard for me to think about. Its horrible. Not only are you taking the childs life but you are taking from the lives of who that child could have been a part of.  

 

Abortion can be compared to murder. Is that not what you are doing? Taking the life from a living human being is wrong, no matter how or when its done.

Even though I'm pro-abortion, I understand & respect that oppinion. However, what I do not understand/respect is people (I'm not saying you - but I've seen this happening) is people trying to include extreme cases in their anti-abortion

 

1. When the life of the mother is at stake. When you say "Abortion can be compared to murder" - it's only fair to point out there's something called "self defense".

When the mothers life is at state, she should have the right not to take that chance. Just like self-defense laws justify mudrer when your life is at stake

 

In that case "Abortion can be compared to murder. Is that not what you are doing?" - no, it's self defense

 

2. When the life of the baby would be unlivable. There are such things such as horrible birth defect. children who for instance will never have a skin. When you can scientifically prove that the child will only surivive for a few months and will live in constant aganizing pain. When anyone who's not completely in denial, would agree that if this child were of adult mind, it would want to end it's life - a life not worthy of living

 

In that case "Abortion can be compared to murder. Is that not what you are doing?" - no, it's assisted suicide

 

 

 

 

Add it all up: imagine your sister, being raped ; her life would be in serious danger if she decided to have the child - which would only live a few months in agonizing pain.

 

Now, the question: What do you feel a fitting punishment would be for your sister if she decides to get an abortion?

[Galzra87]

Imo the only reason for abortion is

1. if you were raped

2. If the child would come out with a severe disability

3. If the mothers life will be in danger from the kid.If you had sex you knew the risks of getting pregnant and you should take the responsibilities which come from your actions. If I screwed up and got peg I would be working 3-4jobs to make it work if I had to. I'm not going to punish/kill someone else purely from my actions.

If you are not financially ready nor prepared for what can happen you shouldn't be having sex. If you do happen to screw up you better given up everything for that kid so he/she is the happiest mf alive :<

technically, before 3rd months, the baby is no more conscious than an muscle or an organ.

[♠Derpeh♤]

technically, before 3rd months, the baby is no more conscious than an muscle or an organ.

Yup also in many religions don't consider it life until 40 days after conception (Judaism for example).

 

I'm not religious at all but I am a strong advocate for taking responsibility for your actions hence the latter statement. It may not be life technically but imo if you had sex and got pregnant and wanted an abortion because you don't have the financial means to take care of it that isn't a valid reason. Because you screwed up, you knew the risks and still did it hence you better take responsibility for your actions. Many immigrants arrive with nothing, can't speak the language and still manage to raise a family just fine, there is no such thing as no financial means if you actually tried hence it's just a poor excuse IMO.

[(ง ͠° ͟ل ͡°)ง]

Abortion can be compared to murder. Is that not what you are doing? Taking the life from a living human being is wrong, no matter how or when its done

The Doctrine of double effect. For instance, when the mother gives birth it may have a high chance of killing her and the baby for any given reason. Do you think it's ok to let the pair die rather than at least have the mother live? The doctrine states that if doing something morally right has a bad side-effect, it is ethically right to do so.

 

Though we are responsible for all anticipated consequences, if you are in a situation where you are going to cause the baby more grief by having it live, rather than simply killing it while it is a just a mass of cell's I am sure you can see why people choose to abort. 

 

I fully understand why you feel how you feel, but to the pro-life people it seems cruel to make a baby endure pain needlessly. If people are going around having unprotected sex like there's no tomorrow, I don't really know what to say. Chances are that they won't love or nurture the baby, so it's cruel to let them keep it, and an abortion seems like the easy way out.

[BankingBot]

Abortion is hard for me to think about. Its horrible. Not only are you taking the childs life but you are taking from the lives of who that child could have been a part of.  

 

Abortion can be compared to murder. Is that not what you are doing? Taking the life from a living human being is wrong, no matter how or when its done.

 

btw: ive already read what you have to say, so dont comment back to me trying to prove me wrong or change my beliefs, i am and will always be against abortion. i just felt the need to say i thought taking ones life even if they "are just cells" is terrible.

http://womensissues.about.com/od/reproductiverights/a/AbortionArgumen.htm

[Heated Bread]

I'd like to re-frame the discussion in a way that I think most people will be unfamiliar with.

 

Who has more of a right to my body?  Me, or a new organism gestating inside of it?  I think it's me.  I think I should have a right to control my own reproduction and what organisms can live inside of me, to the extent that it is possible.  If you are against abortion, do you also think a fetus has more of a right to a woman's body than the woman does?  Imagine that.  For your entire life, you are the sole owner and resident of your body.  Then one day, you become a host to a tiny organism that starts to grow inside of you, feeding from you, sharing half of your genetic material, causing changes in your body, some of which will be temporary and some of which will be permanent, and you can't do a damn thing to stop it because you aren't allowed to.

 

Ideally, the fetus could be transplanted into an artificial womb and would be allowed to develop to completion.  But then we have another interesting question.  That DNA came from somewhere.  That flesh came from another person's flesh.  Should the person then have a right to say "no, I don't want it to be allowed to grow into another person".   And what about the father?  What if the father doesn't want his genes to be passed on in this way, with this particular woman?  Shouldn't he also have a right to control his own reproduction, especially when there are legally binding and life altering consequences to his life as well?

 

This is a big part of the issue, and it gets ignored.  Yes, there is a moral question and an issue of what constitutes a person.  But there's also a question of bodily rights that I think tends to get glossed over too quickly.

 

As an aside, if you're a man and you want to control your reproduction, consider getting a vasectomy.  Then you can avoid women trapping you with pregnancy and taking advantage of you.  It does happen, and you should protect yourself from it.  Condoms and other forms of birth control don't always work.

[Python.]

Yup also in many religions don't consider it life until 40 days after conception (Judaism for example).

 

I'm not religious at all but I am a strong advocate for taking responsibility for your actions hence the latter statement. It may not be life technically but imo if you had sex and got pregnant and wanted an abortion because you don't have the financial means to take care of it that isn't a valid reason. Because you screwed up, you knew the risks and still did it hence you better take responsibility for your actions. Many immigrants arrive with nothing, can't speak the language and still manage to raise a family just fine, there is no such thing as no financial means if you actually tried hence it's just a poor excuse IMO.

 

People who are against contraceptives and have a litter of kids are worse than people who get knocked up once and are scared of what might happen if they have their baby

 

The argument that anyone who "screwed up" and finds themself in this situation isn't a responsible adult is illogical

There are several ways to prevent pregnacy, and some of these ways fail for no other reason than bad luck. They tried to prevent it, isn't that responsible?

However, if they're having unprotected sex and end up with a baby, I can agree abortion shouldn't just be a means to an end. But this is the only time abortion shouldn't be practiced

 

IMO

[♠Derpeh♤]

The argument that anyone who "screwed up" and finds themself in this situation isn't a responsible adult is illogical

There are several ways to prevent pregnacy, and some of these ways fail for no other reason than bad luck. They tried to prevent it, isn't that responsible?

 

If you dont have the financial means or you're not at a point in your life where you can potentially raise a child then you shouldnt be having sex. The sole act of using contraceptions is responsible because you know the consequences of getting pregnant and are trying to prevent that from happening. That also means you understand the risks involved for 30 mins of pleasure and you are wiling to risk getting pregnant for that. If you do get pregnant despite the contraceptions and you opt to abort because of financial reasons that isnt taking responsibility for your actions. That's running away from what you have done which is taking the risk of getting pregnant for 30 mins of pleasure and unfortunately that decision resulted in a pregnancy. 

[Python.]

If you dont have the financial means or you're not at a point in your life where you can potentially raise a child then you shouldnt be having sex. The sole act of using contraceptions is responsible because you know the consequences of getting pregnant and are trying to prevent that from happening. That also means you understand the risks involved for 30 mins of pleasure and you are wiling to risk getting pregnant for that. If you do get pregnant despite the contraceptions and you opt to abort because of financial reasons that isnt taking responsibility for your actions. That's running away from what you have done which is taking the risk of getting pregnant for 30 mins of pleasure and unfortunately that decision resulted in a pregnancy. 

 

I don't see your solution then. You'd rather the baby be born then...put up for adoption? Raised in a broken home?

I'll quote Debra on this, "a dead aborted fetus is better than a live neglected child"

 

Your solution can't simply be abstinence until financially stable, unless you want everyone to be a 40 Year Old Virgin

 

Calling them irresponsible doesn't fix what has been done, and your solution is less than efficient.

[Hyperqube]

http://womensissues.about.com/od/reproductiverights/a/AbortionArgumen.htm

Pro-life 1: "abortion is akin to murder as it is the act of taking human life" - taking a human life isn't neccecairly murder. Self defense, pulling the plug, killing in the line of duty.

 

Pro-life 2: "No civilized society permits one human to intentionally harm or take the life of another human without punishment" ... err ... yes they do. Not murder of course, but killing, yes. Heck, nobody punishes an executioner - and it's his job to kill people

 

Q: would a pregant mother allowed to smoke? it harms the child.

Q: studies have show stress & such to be bad for a feutus. If you want to protect the child ... Do you get pregancy leave from work while pregant?

 

Pro-life 3: "Adoption is a viable alternative to abortion and accomplishes the same result". Not the exact same result: abortion doesn't require the biological (and social, and possibly other) side effects of carrying a child for 9 months.

 

Pro-life 4: "An abortion can result in medical complications later in life;" ... so can delivering a child. While health care has come a long way, childbirth is not without risk

 

Pro-life 5: "In the instance of rape and incest, proper medical care can ensure that a woman will not get pregnant." err ... point 1 said life begins at conception. Conception can happen 4 hours after intercourse. That's an insanely short window of time.

 

Pro-life 6: "Abortion should not be used as another form of contraception".Agreed. Like a diet should be perfered over liposuction, One shouldn't reason 'I can always get an abortion'

 

Pro-life 7: "For women who demand complete control of their body, control should ..." if you tell people who demand complete control what to do ... you don't get what demanding complete control means.

 

Pro-life 8: "Many Americans who pay taxes are opposed to abortion". Taxes are not decided on a majority vote. Many americans don't like trafic cams either, yet they also pay for those. But, on the subject of money, an abortion costs less then childbirth.

 

Pro-life 9: "Many have lifelong regrets afterwards." while true, many also don't have lifelong regrets. This is not an argument against abortion, but in favor of making a well thought out decision

 

Pro-life 10: "Abortion frequently causes intense psychological pain and stress." - again, so does the alternative. Like 9, this is not an argument against abortion, but in favor of making a well thought out decision

 

Pro-choice 1: "its health is dependent on her health, and cannot be regarded as a separate entity as it cannot exist outside her womb." that's not true. By the same logic, my tapeworm & I are one ?

 

Pro-choice 2: "Is this murder, and if not, then how is abortion murder?" an open-ended question is not a decent argument. If they do presume that that is murder, or you try a false dilemma, your argument falls.

 

Pro-choice 3: "Statistics show that very few women who give birth choose to give up their babies" ... is not an argument why it wouldn't be an alternative. Very few people use oxigen tanks to breath, but it IS an alterntive for air

 

Pro-choice 4: "Abortion is a safe medical procedure ... less than 0.5% risk of serious complications" Numbers mean very little without context. While I don't know numbers of other complications, the deathrate of the mother is 0.0185%

 

Pro-choice 5: "In the case of rape or incest, forcing a woman made pregnant by this violent act would cause further psychological harm to the victim" agreed

 

Pro-choice 6: "Only 8% of women who have abortions do not use any form of birth control, and that is due more to individual carelessness than to the availability of abortion" One can always argue then if those 8% should be allowed abortion.

 

Pro-choice 7: "Take away her reproductive choice and you step onto a slippery slope." The same argument was used to try and deny gay marriage. The existance of a slippery slope is not a reason not to take a step; only a reason to thread carefully

 

Pro-choice 8: "For those who are opposed, the place to express outrage is in the voting booth." pretty sure that's happening already.

 

Pro-choice 9: "Teenagers who become mothers have grim prospects for the future." Not all.

 

Q: "They are much more likely to leave of school; receive inadequate prenatal care; rely on public assistance to raise a child; develop health problems; or end up divorced." ...

In reference to Pro-life 8, do any of those things cost taxpayer dollars? (like public assistance? or health care?)

 

 

[.Dusk]

abort this topic

[Python.]

abort this topic

 

You don't have to shit-post on every thread, memelord.

 

Please take your shitty memes and leave (the forums) :^)

[BankingBot]

@Hyperqube, I posted the link to let people think about the arguments provided. no point if someone try to debate every single points because that would just mean that their stand is neutral which serves no argument purpose

[.Dusk]

You don't have to shit-post on every thread, memelord.

 

Please take your shitty memes and leave (the forums) :^)

http://gyazo.com/5553357c1c94c59d7e06c34e452a323e

 

id gladly leave after seeing this,thing is i get too many good reactions

[♠Derpeh♤]

I don't see your solution then. You'd rather the baby be born then...put up for adoption? Raised in a broken home?

I'll quote Debra on this, "a dead aborted fetus is better than a live neglected child"

 

Your solution can't simply be abstinence until financially stable, unless you want everyone to be a 40 Year Old Virgin

 

Calling them irresponsible doesn't fix what has been done, and your solution is less than efficient.

It isn't a solution its my point of view. If you aren't financially stable you shouldn't be having sex risking pregnancy and if you do get pregnant you batter make sure you take care of that kid well and make sure he/she is the happiest kid alive. Not sure what part of that you don't understand.

 

You're trying to justify that 30mins of pleasure is worth the consequences of possible pregnancy which is what I don't get. Also if your financial outlook is that you won't be financially stable until youre 40 sex should be the last thing on your mind

 

Edit: let me break it down even further so you understand

 

Risk: getting pregnant

The action: having 30 mins of pleasure I.e. sex

Taking responsibility for your actions: you raise the kid well and give everything for the child to ensure they are happy...etc abortion isn't taking responsibility for what you have done. Dumping them to a foster care is avoiding your responsibilities.

 

You seem to be selectively reading one sentence from every one of my responses...

[Python.]

It isn't a solution its my point of view. If you aren't financially stable you shouldn't be having sex risking pregnancy and if you do get pregnant you batter make sure you take care of that kid well and make sure he/she is the happiest kid alive. Not sure what part of that you don't understand.

 

You're trying to justify that 30mins of pleasure is worth the consequences of possible pregnancy which is what I don't get. Also if your financial outlook is that you won't be financially stable until youre 40 sex should be the last thing on your mind

 

Good luck. Humans constantly seek pleasure. To say it's an easy thing to overcome is completely ignorant, while perhaps the logical route.

I'm sure the general census on having sex over not having sex is at least 80%, for whichever gender with whichever gender

 

And if the baby is born in a home that can't afford to raise him, I wonder exactly how he'll be the happiest kid alive, or even trying to make it seem so

 

Define "financially stable" for me

 

(Also if we weren't the only ones arguing this that would be cool. Just seems like a back-and-forth with no other input ;p)

[Hyperqube]

@Hyperqube, I posted the link to let people think about the arguments provided. no point if someone try to debate every single points because that would just mean that their stand is neutral which serves no argument purpose

 

actually, the 10 pro-choice argumetns aren't arguments: they are responses to the 10 pro-life arguments.

I'm in favor of abortioin, but the argments (both pro and contra) where IMHO pretty poor

 

I did post some things that popped in my head while talking about it

 

Q: would a pregant mother allowed to smoke? it harms the child.

 

Q: studies have show stress & such to be bad for a feutus. If you want to protect the child ... Do you get pregancy leave from work while pregant?

 

Q: "They are much more likely to leave of school; receive inadequate prenatal care; rely on public assistance to raise a child; develop health problems; or end up divorced." ...

In reference to Pro-life 8, do any of those things cost taxpayer dollars? (like public assistance? or health care?)

[TheTruth]

See, while everyone is busy discussing "should abortions be allowed", nobody is bothered with the REAL cause at hand. 

 

Why don't men get a say in abortions? I mean.. If a man doesn't want to have a child, he's a deadbeat dad. But if a woman doesn't want a child, she's pro-choice. The woman has 100% responsibility in making the decision, and then some. What if a man would like to be a father and the woman just goes ahead and aborts the child? I get that it's the "woman's body" and whatnot, but... It takes two to tango(le sexy time), doesn't it? That child is just as much the man's as it is the woman's. 

 

The fact that a woman can not only abort a man's child against his wishes without even including him in the decision AND at the same time not only have his child, but also force him to pay for it is just screwed up. Too much power and responsibility is given to the woman, while the man is pretty much left at her mercy.

 

/rant

[Python.]

See, while everyone is busy discussing "should abortions be allowed", nobody is bothered with the REAL cause at hand. 

 

Why don't men get a say in abortions? I mean.. If a man doesn't want to have a child, he's a deadbeat dad. But if a woman doesn't want a child, she's pro-choice. The woman has 100% responsibility in making the decision, and then some. What if a man would like to be a father and the woman just goes ahead and aborts the child? I get that it's the "woman's body" and whatnot, but... It takes two to tango(le sexy time), doesn't it? That child is just as much the man's as it is the woman's. 

 

The fact that a woman can not only abort a man's child against his wishes without even including him in the decision AND at the same time not only have his child, but also force him to pay for it is just screwed up. Too much power and responsibility is given to the woman, while the man is pretty much left at her mercy.

 

/rant

 

I mean, the guy would be a pretty big dick if he made his girl go through 9 months of pregnancy, labor, breast feeding, and raising a child that she might not even want or be able to care for

The woman gets the overall say because it's her body, and it's easier for a guy to impregnate a woman than it is for a woman to go through the things stated above

What makes you think men don't get ANY say in what happens to their child? Obviously the guy has some say, but it's ultimately the woman's decision

[Hyperqube]

See, while everyone is busy discussing "should abortions be allowed", nobody is bothered with the REAL cause at hand. 

 

Why don't men get a say in abortions?

 

I always figured the REAL question was "man or woman - why do strangers get a say in this?"

 

Why don't men get a say in abortions?

• If you're a couple, it would only make sense that the choice wether to have a child or not should be a mutual decision (be this about abortion or the regular 'will we have a child?' question)
• If you're not a couple ... as it's the woman who carries the child and all that, it makes sense that she decides.

[Teeny Tiny Cat]

The logical solution to this problem is the same, whether you're pro-choice or anti-abortion; better sex education, better general education, better training and help to get skilled and find work for low-income and/or single parents.

 

And I feel sympathy for men whose partners would leave them completely out of the decision (whichever way it goes), in a good relationship with a respectful partner, decisions like that are made together. But legally speaking, hell no you don't have a say. That any man would think he should have the right to assume control over the body of another person is pretty gross.

[DainbowRash]

Honestly I've talked about this 200 times before. The people who are prochoice I've met so far are either sick/psychotic, want to sacrafice their baby for their own benifit, or are just absolutely downright stupid. I'm sure not everyone is remotely close to this and I'm just talking to a bunch of idiots but this is who I have met so far.

 

1.) Sick/psychotic:

"I don't get what the big deal is. And from what I've seen, most of the people for pro-life like hunting. So they can kill innocent animals that have already developed sense of emotion and the nerve endings to feel pain but God forbid kill something that could destroy someone's future if unwanted"

"Humans are different than animals. A human is worth more than a thousand dear"

"Technically humans are animals we are mammals just like deer"

"Why"

"Because they're human"

"Why does that change anything"

"Hey! Welcome to my farm! I have 16 children under 18 and 12 that are matured now. Once I butcher them I'll cook them right up so you can eat it! And that is why it matters. Honestly of course my comment is exaggerated. But have you ever eaten a hamburger? Now have you ever eaten a human? I rest my case"

"I'd try human if it was legal, no joke"

"I've eaten part of a human liver before and it honestly tastes a LOT like steak"

From what I understand from this not only do they support abortions but they like eating human?

 

2.)Who want to sacrifice their baby for their own benifit

"Rape"

"Rape"

"Rape"

"Rape"

"Rape"

"Rape"

"Rape"

Basically is the argument I see 9/10 times. Well there is adoption isn't there? Then people say orphanages are shit and children are abused there. Well does that mean we put a bullet in a child who has been abused by their parents? They're heading to the orphanage too. And also don't you think the baby has as much freedom as the mother while she was being raped? I think it's actually worst since the baby dies in the end.

 

3.) Downright stupid

Haha, now I've gotten plenty of these.

 

"dying of old age is a lot more painful than dying instantly"

Same argument for suicide moron

 

"prevent overpopulation"

Okay, to prevent overpopulation let's start by killing him. If he is so glad to give up a baby I don't see why not himself?

 

"What about in life-threatning situations"

Multiple doctors who are experienced with doing abortions say that life-threatening labor is virtually non-existent due to the knowledge, medicine, and tools we have today. One even said "this is just a card played by the media"

 

"You can't claim potential human life is human life. Iron ore is a potential car, so you don't you dare say I can't drive it"

Iron ore can be used to make many different things. What else will a fucking fetus turn into? A damn elephant? Oh no, that's right. A dead fetus that losts it's chance to live due to an abortion.

 

Anyways this is me countering the most recent and most common arguments. And if you have a problem with me saying baby go ahead and pretend in your mind I say "potential human" to make yourself feel better about this.

[Teeny Tiny Cat]

You heard it here folks... pro-choicers like to eat people.

 

That's certainly a unique argument again abortion, lol.